Feedback to STS | Game is HEAVILY monetized [Pay to play & Pay to Win]

1. Slots:

This was not an issue back then when slots were available in in-game vendors for tokens. No one complained about it for an extended period, but out of the blue, STS decided to remove it saying "It was never an intended feature of the game"? That's just a load of nonsense, IMO.

STS tried to make amends by hosting a slot event for a limited time, but that was still lacking or no effort at all on their part to resolve the issue. They also added the daily log-in reward system (which is also a straight-up poop idea [Why? Because it takes time to max out slots with this system entirely.]). Phase 1 was already added, but it's nothing to be excited about. My expectation for Phase 2 will likely be the same.


Understandably, if I have a full bag, I can always just liquidate items to make space in my bag. But it is psychologically annoying that new players are baited into buying plats to buy more slots [inventory, craft, house, and furniture] to improve their quality of life in the game.

Furthermore, the only way to start a new character in the game with a fresh account is to buy plats [30 platinum for a new character]. Yet another monetization added to pay to play a new character in this game.


2. Obtaining gears/items via chest with platinum:

In the game's early stages, I had no issue with this. Why? Because back then you really did not have to spend money to clear the game's content. Items or gears that dropped in maps/dungeons were actually valuable. Nowadays, to clear the game's content and have fun, you have to obtain exclusive gears/items that are only obtainable via spending plats on these chests (or what I like to call 'loot boxes'). To be fair, there are items you can obtain in the game that can make you strong (spirit gears), but they require tons of time to level up to the point you go crazy and burnt out.

With each passing time, in these loot boxes, items/gears/eggs that we need to clear the game and have fun are added to this. Which makes it a must to spend money on if you want to progress in the game. The worst part is that the gears obtained in these chests are not specific to your class, which means you can get items for mage if you play as a rogue. So you either sell that gear you obtained from these chests in an auction that you cannot use for yourself and roll again, or make a new character by spending 30 plats and start all over again.


This is another very devious tactic to get your player base to spend more money on the game.

3. Awakening

Ah, life was so simple without this feature in the game. After obtaining the items you need from those loot boxes, you are not automatically strong. Now, you have to gamble again to get the best stats in the game for your gears/items to have an easy time making progress.

If STS added a pity system where we can get the awake we want, the awakening system might not have been an idea, but since we don't have that you have to spend more money until you get the awake you want. Yet another monetization has been added in the game for you to progress.

4. Cosmetics/Vanities

This is not important for your progress in the game, but most meh-looking vanities are locked behind a paywall with ridiculous rates. What do I mean by that?

Let's say you want to buy an average-looking vanity guaranteed (meaning you don't have to waste plats in those loot boxes to get vanities); you would need to get 1750 (max amount) which totals about $100. That is insane. $100 to just make your character look good. Not even Genshin Impact does that for their vanities. Furthermore, most of the "good-looking" vanities are LIMITED and timed, so not only do you have to spend money, but you have to click faster than everyone else if you want to get it.

There are free, good-looking vanities in lower-tier LBs, but it's nothing special. If you want the gorgeous ones, you must get ready to compete against end-game players with no life or who have other players babysit their account to play 24/7 (yes, they exist) and beat everyone in the top tier LB.


5. Plat to Gold conversion

Imma keep it simple. It sucks. You get more gold by buying elite awakes and selling them for gold rather than converting plat to gold. Yet another monetization added into the game to get the funds to afford anything to progress.

This is why 70-80% of the player base are gold sellers and buyers because the game's conversion rate is horrendous. Bloody fix the conversion rates for your plat to gold.

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I have a lot more to say, but you get the idea. Now, I've been supporting this game for a long time. It's on and off, but I've spent a ridiculous amount of time and money (at least $10k+ invested) on this game. I logged back into the game to see what was happening, but I wasn't pleased and frustrated, and my excitement and passion for the game are slowly dying. I remain hopeful that something will change.

I understand this thread will be deleted and highly frowned upon by STS (most negative feedback usually does). I might even get banned from forums or in-game. Which is fine; that will make it easy for me to move on if they do and will see what really the intention of the owners of the game.

With that being said, the game is fun only for the veterans. New players will have a terrible time. That will be all. Thank you.

Fair criticism (as per usual), Trolzerkeinstein.

As one of the owners of this game I'd like to offer my response to your assertions / accusations.

On slots. We aren't "baiting" you with slots. If you don't like emptying your inventory every time it fills up you can buy more and it'll help to alleviate that situation. When I read the term "baiting" I see it as some sort of scheme where if you buy the thing you don't actually get what you paid for. This isn't the case: you do get what you pay for when you buy slots. We made the switch from totally 'free' to 'paid' because this feature is something that paying players will buy - and we are running a business.

On the gear you get from locked crates. You don't actually have to spend Platinum to get the gear. You can trade for this. I am sure you know this - nevertheless you indicated that there was no way to get the gear that you want apart from spending Platinum... and that just isn't true. As for getting non-class-specific items, we often provide class-specific locked event crates in the Store. Loot lists and guaranteed loots for these are class-specific and are intended to alleviate this specific problem.

On awakenings. Yes this is a means for Spacetime to earn revenue. Pity system is not in the cards for this. We did an 'enchantment locking' system in Pocket Legends but we did not like the results from a business perspective so that's also off the table for Arcane Legends.

On vanity items. I don't think you are criticizing us with your comments. Seems like you are just saying that you don't ascribe a high dollar value to cosmetics (sometimes?). This is totally fair and expected. Vanity item values are wildly subjective. Your initial comment is most relevant: you don't need vanity items to progress in the game. You do seem to have a beef with players that compete to get limited edition stuff - and I can understand your concerns and the frustrations of trying to purchase a limited edition item that sells out in a matter of seconds.

On gold conversion. We have revised the gold packages before and we'll do it again. Given the actual game data, I don't buy your assertion that upwards of 80% of our players are black market sellers - but this is the place to make those kinds of statements without being vigorously fact-checked... so don't mind me :-)

My general impression of your feedback is that there are no effective ways to monetize our product without being seen as devious. Perhaps strictly allowing 'donations' would alleviate this but I feel that somehow this would also be seen as an evil gimmick (by those with less fair-minded perspective). Nevertheless I appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns with us.

Best wishes!

idk waht to say really, but.. we know.

where to draw the line in the sand? too close and lose money , too far .. and lose money..

catering for blasters and normies at the same time.. seems difficult

1 thing i do know is i would like to see more things like fly lord orrick loot in the game, during most of my time writing weapon pages for the wiki, "how to obtain" heading contains just 2 things..

Just looked up the company, its in decline again (Q1) Seems like they had to lay off a lot of staff.
I guess thats why the change with inventory slots and other stuff.
Cinco, do you do music?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolifee

Just looked up the company, its in decline again (Q1) Seems like they had to lay off a lot of staff.
I guess thats why the change with inventory slots and other stuff.
Cinco, do you do music?

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Yeah... nah ;-)

This year we've been hiring (mostly for the Art Department, and we are still looking to fill a couple of open positions).

We haven't "laid off" anyone in years.

The business is good and it seems like that's at the root of the OP's criticism of our monetization methods.

@Cinco

The biggest thing I agree with is slots.
I know how annoying that is to have low slots, because I run with my younger brother everyday, and everytime we finish a map he has to clear his inventory, his furnishing inventory, his crafting inventory every 2 mins.

You made an event "Crafting slots event" but even crafting a single slot was so hard.
Drop rates were bad, and I havent seen anyone crafting more than 1-3 slots total.

25 inevntory slots as default is IMPOSSIBLE now
we have belts, Artifacts, bracelets and more other things than we had back in 2012.

25 as default is not enough.

Sorry then for the wrong information!
Saw a Website that said you went down from 72 to 34 i think. which would be a huge if true

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trueido

@Cinco

The biggest thing I agree with is slots.
I know how annoying that is to have low slots, because I run with my younger brother everyday, and everytime we finish a map he has to clear his inventory, his furnishing inventory, his crafting inventory every 2 mins.

You made an event "Crafting slots event" but even crafting a single slot was so hard.
Drop rates were bad, and I havent seen anyone crafting more than 1-3 slots total.

25 inevntory slots as default is IMPOSSIBLE now
we have belts, Artifacts, bracelets and more other things than we had back in 2012.

25 as default is not enough.

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With respect to the Slot Crafting event - we're planning to run this event again and we're addressing the difficulty of crafting the slots. Please note: I am NOT saying that it'll be easy for you to get max slots (or even an additional +25) but it'll be an improvement over the inaugural run of this event. Clearly the 'pinch' of needing to empty your inventory is part of the monetization plan. Meaning: if you didn't need to think about your inventory then the slots feature would have no business value.

Clearly it is possible to play the game - you said as much yourself. It's just got this particular friction and we have a paid remedy.

I thank you for your feedback as well :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

With respect to the Slot Crafting event - we're planning to run this event again and we're addressing the difficulty of crafting the slots. Please note: I am NOT saying that it'll be easy for you to get max slots (or even an additional +25) but it'll be an improvement over the inaugural run of this event. Clearly the 'pinch' of needing to empty your inventory is part of the monetization plan. Meaning: if you didn't need to think about your inventory then the slots feature would have no business value.

Clearly it is possible to play the game - you said as much yourself. It's just got this particular friction and we have a paid remedy.

I thank you for your feedback as well :-)

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User of paid remedy here, need more remedy, keep filling to 1000, thanks lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

With respect to the Slot Crafting event - we're planning to run this event again and we're addressing the difficulty of crafting the slots. Please note: I am NOT saying that it'll be easy for you to get max slots (or even an additional +25) but it'll be an improvement over the inaugural run of this event. Clearly the 'pinch' of needing to empty your inventory is part of the monetization plan. Meaning: if you didn't need to think about your inventory then the slots feature would have no business value.

Clearly it is possible to play the game - you said as much yourself. It's just got this particular friction and we have a paid remedy.

I thank you for your feedback as well :-)

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10 items per set
One ms set
One damage set (can be kraken let’s say so)
One gold loot set
That’s 10x30-3(for the gl wep armor helm that can be krak)
That’s 27 slots needed to play endgame correctly.
Idk how to play the game in another way than that.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

With respect to the Slot Crafting event - we're planning to run this event again and we're addressing the difficulty of crafting the slots. Please note: I am NOT saying that it'll be easy for you to get max slots (or even an additional +25) but it'll be an improvement over the inaugural run of this event. Clearly the 'pinch' of needing to empty your inventory is part of the monetization plan. Meaning: if you didn't need to think about your inventory then the slots feature would have no business value.

Clearly it is possible to play the game - you said as much yourself. It's just got this particular friction and we have a paid remedy.

I thank you for your feedback as well :-)

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Finally you showed some transparency and made things clear , Just curious to know what you think about new players , is the game new player friendly and manages to keep them engaged ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

With respect to the Slot Crafting event - we're planning to run this event again and we're addressing the difficulty of crafting the slots. Please note: I am NOT saying that it'll be easy for you to get max slots (or even an additional +25) but it'll be an improvement over the inaugural run of this event. Clearly the 'pinch' of needing to empty your inventory is part of the monetization plan. Meaning: if you didn't need to think about your inventory then the slots feature would have no business value.

Clearly it is possible to play the game - you said as much yourself. It's just got this particular friction and we have a paid remedy.

I thank you for your feedback as well :-)

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Please clarify does that mean theres not gonna be any improvements planned for slots as of today other then perhaps slot events?

bump for asommers ; )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Fair criticism (as per usual), Trolzerkeinstein.

As one of the owners of this game I'd like to offer my response to your assertions / accusations.

On slots. We aren't "baiting" you with slots. If you don't like emptying your inventory every time it fills up you can buy more and it'll help to alleviate that situation. When I read the term "baiting" I see it as some sort of scheme where if you buy the thing you don't actually get what you paid for. This isn't the case: you do get what you pay for when you buy slots. We made the switch from totally 'free' to 'paid' because this feature is something that paying players will buy - and we are running a business.

On the gear you get from locked crates. You don't actually have to spend Platinum to get the gear. You can trade for this. I am sure you know this - nevertheless you indicated that there was no way to get the gear that you want apart from spending Platinum... and that just isn't true. As for getting non-class-specific items, we often provide class-specific locked event crates in the Store. Loot lists and guaranteed loots for these are class-specific and are intended to alleviate this specific problem.

On awakenings. Yes this is a means for Spacetime to earn revenue. Pity system is not in the cards for this. We did an 'enchantment locking' system in Pocket Legends but we did not like the results from a business perspective so that's also off the table for Arcane Legends.

On vanity items. I don't think you are criticizing us with your comments. Seems like you are just saying that you don't ascribe a high dollar value to cosmetics (sometimes?). This is totally fair and expected. Vanity item values are wildly subjective. Your initial comment is most relevant: you don't need vanity items to progress in the game. You do seem to have a beef with players that compete to get limited edition stuff - and I can understand your concerns and the frustrations of trying to purchase a limited edition item that sells out in a matter of seconds.

On gold conversion. We have revised the gold packages before and we'll do it again. Given the actual game data, I don't buy your assertion that upwards of 80% of our players are black market sellers - but this is the place to make those kinds of statements without being vigorously fact-checked... so don't mind me :-)

My general impression of your feedback is that there are no effective ways to monetize our product without being seen as devious. Perhaps strictly allowing 'donations' would alleviate this but I feel that somehow this would also be seen as an evil gimmick (by those with less fair-minded perspective). Nevertheless I appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns with us.

Best wishes!

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I appreciate you taking your time responding to each. All that I can say is that I am still 50/50 to what was said above.

However, I can say that the Pity system is not entirely a bad idea. Why? Because many players awake their gears to progress in the game (I am one of them). And what's annoying the most is having to spend hundreds of dollars and not getting the awake you want. My suggestion is the awake slots lock when we are satisfied with them and can roll more for those unlocked awake slots. It is a win-win for everyone since we are still spending money on your game to get the awakes that we want while making it less painful for us in terms of sanity and finances. In my opinion, just straight up shutting down the idea since it was not profitable enough says a lot about the intentions of the development team at the moment.

Lastly, I would be more than willing to donate my money to the team if I see any value. Why would I invest in something that just does things whatever they want? Or they only selectively listen to ideas that fit their agenda. Or take advantage of their paying customers. Doesn't make sense right?

Don't get the wrong idea, I still support your game. But lately, I've been considering lowering my spending output in the game because the changes that you implement in your game are no longer fair, not worth it, and are not fun. As long as these issues persist and are not addressed, you will slowly start losing support over time from not just me but your other paying customers as well. That will be all. Thank you.

Best regards~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

We did an 'enchantment locking' system in Pocket Legends but we did not like the results from a business perspective so that's also off the table for Arcane Legends.

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that's because you did it wrong
i didn't play pocket legends but i just watched a few videos on the enchantment system
of course it doesn't make you money because it's too basic
it seems waay too easy to get a perfect item

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

On awakenings. Yes this is a means for Spacetime to earn revenue.

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you definetly should make money from it
but instead of improving the system you add "lethality"? increasing the pool of trash useless awakes to make it even harder for us to get a decent awakened item?
in the current state the awakening system feels more hopeless than rewarding
as it is now it's too hard to get an awake you want

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Pity system is not in the cards for this

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that would be too simple and how would it even work?
but the randomness of it can be improved

how to improve it?
there's plenty of mmos you can find inspiration from
just increasing the number of gems required for each locked slot or adding a gold cost wouldn't be good
it would be too easy

suggestions
so let's say we want to implement an awakening system that would allow locking slots but wouldn't be too easy to roll a perfect item and would somewhat preserve the amount of gems spent overall:

1. number of awakening gems used: an awake would cost 2ⁿ where n is the number of locked slots => so for 0 slots locked it would cost 1, for 1 it would cost 2, for 2 it would cost 4 and for 3 it would cost 8
   
   • i said 2 but it could be 3 or whatever
2. you can also add a gold cost when locking slots in a similar manner
   
   • 10k for 1 slot locked 100k for 2 slots locked 1m for 3 slots locked
3. rng modifier => each time you lock a slot the lock has a chance to break:
   
   • if you lock 1 slot there's a 35% chance when you reroll that the lock will break and the roll you locked will also be rerolled
   • if you lock 2 slots there's a 65% chance when you reroll that both locks will break and both of the rolls you locked will also be rerolled
   • if you lock 3 slots there's a 95% chance when you reroll that all 3 locks will break and all 3 of the rolls you locked will also be rerolled
4. Awakening master event: the chance to break when awakening with locks is reduced by 5%/10% whatever
5. New items(could be premium or farmed or whatever):
   
   • scroll of awakening(basic): reduces the chance to break for locks by 5%(consumed on use)
   • scroll of awakening(advanced): reduces the chance to break for locks by 10%(consumed on use)
   • scroll of awakening(expert): reduces the chance to break for locks by 15%(consumed on use)

this is just what i thought of i'm sure people here could come up with better ideas/ways to improve the system if you(cinco and the sts team) were willing to listen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trolzerkeinstein

what's annoying the most is having to spend hundreds of dollars and not getting the awake you want. It is a win-win for
everyone since we are still spending money on your game to get the awakes that we want while making it less painful for us in terms of sanity and finances.

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i've been hating the awakening system since it came out and i'm sure there's a way to improve it that would increase our interest and also sts profits

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trolzerkeinstein

I've been considering lowering my spending output in the game

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same here mate
i stopped spending on awakes since they feel totally hopeless
there's a lot of people like us

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trolzerkeinstein

Lastly, I would be more than willing to donate my money to the team if I see any value.

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exactly
the way i described above(of course with more brainstorming involved) could make getting 2 awakes of the same type a little easier while maintaining the difficulty for getting 3 of the same type or a perfect item(with 4 rolls of the same type)
i'd be more than willing to spend my money if i knew the chance of getting some decent awakes is a little higher
instead of wasting all my plats over and over again and not getting anything at all out of it

also we need an auto-awakening function:
i'm sick of clicking thousands of times to get a single decent awake
we pick a set of conditions(for example 100%GL and 2%INT) and it auto-awakens the item until those conditions are met
this event i've spent like 3k blue gems trying to get a 200%GL weapon and i stopped because i got boored of clicking not because i lacked the funds/gems

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cinco

On vanity items. I don't think you are criticizing us with your comments. Seems like you are just saying that you don't ascribe a high dollar value to cosmetics (sometimes?). This is totally fair and expected. Vanity item values are wildly subjective. Your initial comment is most relevant: you don't need vanity items to progress in the game. You do seem to have a beef with players that compete to get limited edition stuff - and I can understand your concerns and the frustrations of trying to purchase a limited edition item that sells out in a matter of seconds.

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A little off topic. What’s the progress so far with the VIP rewards. Is it in the works? It’s going to happen soon?

@asommers maybe you might have some more knowledge on this matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iulicutu

suggestions
so let's say we want to implement an awakening system that would allow locking slots but wouldn't be too easy to roll a perfect item and would somewhat preserve the amount of gems spent overall:

1. number of awakening gems used: an awake would cost 2ⁿ where n is the number of locked slots => so for 0 slots locked it would cost 1, for 1 it would cost 2, for 2 it would cost 4 and for 3 it would cost 8
   
   • i said 2 but it could be 3 or whatever
2. you can also add a gold cost when locking slots in a similar manner
   
   • 10k for 1 slot locked 100k for 2 slots locked 1m for 3 slots locked
3. rng modifier => each time you lock a slot the lock has a chance to break:
   
   • if you lock 1 slot there's a 35% chance when you reroll that the lock will break and the roll you locked will also be rerolled
   • if you lock 2 slots there's a 65% chance when you reroll that both locks will break and both of the rolls you locked will also be rerolled
   • if you lock 3 slots there's a 95% chance when you reroll that all 3 locks will break and all 3 of the rolls you locked will also be rerolled
4. Awakening master event: the chance to break when awakening with locks is reduced by 5%/10% whatever
5. New items(could be premium or farmed or whatever):
   
   • scroll of awakening(basic): reduces the chance to break for locks by 5%(consumed on use)
   • scroll of awakening(advanced): reduces the chance to break for locks by 10%(consumed on use)
   • scroll of awakening(expert): reduces the chance to break for locks by 15%(consumed on use)

this is just what i thought of i'm sure people here could come up with better ideas/ways to improve the system if you(cinco and the sts team) were willing to listen

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I think they did something close to this in Pocket Legends. Try to play the other legend games since most of the things came /got "tested " there.
I think from point 3 is not fun but looks interesting and might be again hard and costly to make.
Everything comes down to money.
Might be wrong.

Every time I wanna play again by nostalgia I read this thread and remember what made me stop.

I hate awaks, yeah it makes money but it’s not fun at all. In fact It’s Not even good for the game since according to people not only did It kill pvp but it also reinforces the P2W aspect of the game.

But I would say that the locking system they the guy above though about seems a great improvement for the current system. Only the « reawak until » would be unlikely good according to me.

I think a locking system for awak sounds good

i remember the locking system on PL was OP..!!

..I had a 400 gl godspeed and a full set of mythic l110 or l105 stuff ..can't remember, maxed out awake.. :D

total dps on bear {warrior}: 33,000 using dagger, easy

I barely even played and there were people much richer than me at the time