Proposal to end the Dodgepocalypse, a simple dodge cap

It has been a long time since I've posted anything, but I have been asked to do so by someone off the forums.

Dodge - the problem
Why has dodge raised a lot of unhappiness, like here?

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...Dodgepocalypse


Answer: It forces RNG and in the case

For example, let's say that we want a combo like Cruel Blast, or for that matter any combo that requires 2 moves.

Our target has 80% dodge
That means we have a 1 in 25 chance of executing our combo.
80% of the time they will dodge the first time and 80% of the time they will dodge the second.
That means that 4% of combos hit. 32% of the time, 1 of 2 hits lands, and 64% of the time, no hits land.

Our target has 60% dodge
That means we have a 16% chance of executing our combo.
60% of the time they will dodge the first round and again 60% of the time they will dodge the second round.
That means that 16% of combos hit. 48% of the time one of two hits lands and 36% of the time, the target is able to dodge both hits.

What if we were to go insane, like 90% dodge
Then the target is nearly invincible.
It would mean that 1% of the time, the combos hit, 18% of the time, only 1 shot lands, and 81% of the time they dodge both hits.



So why is this a problem?
To kill a target in PvP, you need very high burst damage to be able to overwhelm the target.

Amount of damage to kill = HP - Amount Healed within time

The longer the fight, the more the target has to heal, but the higher their dodge, the higher the percentage. Dodge scales geometrically rather than linearly. Actually, a player often needs 3+ hits, especially for Str targets to land successively in a short period of time. Burst in this case is more valuable than sustained - which is one of the reasons why a DOT based character would do very poorly in PL PvP - it's just too fast paced unless the DOT was very powerful.

This makes it very dependent on getting a favorable Random Number Generator (RNG) combination.

The other problem is that as a target levels, each new level of buff or gear adds a bit more dodge. That brings us closer to 100% and as we approach 100%, the target becomes invincible. It also makes Str vs Str battles very long.




Is there a potential solution?

A dodge cap.

Say, the maximum dodge is 60% after any dodge would go to armor.


Let's say:
Dodge Cap = 60%
Armor Modifier = 2 for each percentage

We have a character with 80% dodge and 200 armor.

So they would have actually:
60% dodge
Modified Armor = 200 (base armor) + 200 (base armor) * (80%, which is the character's dodge - 60% dodge cap) x 2 = 240 armor.

This character has 60% dodge and 240 armor now instead of 80% dodge and 200 armor.

Note: I'm not sure what the correct dodge cap and modifier are, but I think that 60% is a good starting point and 2% for the armor cap.


Also for crit, make it useful past 100%
I'd also recommend doing the same for crit over 100%, only crit will go straight to damage. Use the same damage modifier as the armor modifier to cancel each other out (offense vs defense) so that neither Str, Int, or Dex have an advantage.

So let's say that we have a character with 120% crit and 200 damage
Assume the same armor modifier of 2 per percentage


Damage would be = 200 for base damage + 200 x (120% crit - 100% crit since we cannot have crit over 100%) = 240

This adds damage to crit over 100% and negates the armor buff of the target, but the target still has 60% dodge buff. This would only ever be valuable however after 100% crit.




Other notes
This is a very simple proposal, but it may be a "quick win" if done correctly (ex: the right percentages used). It may need tweaking by class as well (ex: the dodge cap might need to be different per class). It will require a lot of feedback, but could balance end game. In that regard, it could be the simple mechanic that fixes dodge, but getting the percentages right will likely take several revisions. Edit: Another option (and perhaps better with the new classes) is to tweak based on int, dex, and str. Having more than say, 55% in the category will be your dominant trait.

Keep in mind the impact of buffs when these caps are on and off.

I'm not sure what the dodge cap should be, as I said, but 60% is a good starting point I'd say. I think that gives a good balance between dodge and damage. Too much dodge favors strength based builds (especially bears), while too little makes dodge ineffective. Tweaking will be needed as discussed. 60% is a starting point, but an I'd say an educated guess.

This was a part of a far more complicated proposal.
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...-class-balance


The beauty of it is that lower tiers will be less affected since they don't have as much dodge and certainly not anywhere near endgame. That is not however to say they will be unaffected; it's impossible to know for each tier unless implemented.



There are other options. One is to make debuffs a lot more powerful (forcing strategy when using them and perhaps making them a game changer). I'd recommend making their effects an "always hit". However, without a dodge change, unless dodge debuffs are extremely powerful, then there's little point.

One thing I should mention is that these mechanics are what I'm basing it off of:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...DPS-Crits-etc/

The latest patch made some changes - could someone clarify this:
" + Reduced the total maximum amount of armor mitigation by 10%."

From: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...s-Super-Elites

I like about this idea that it wouldn't hurt low level
So far I felt like fixing an endgame problem always meant crippling low level
Skill revamp, dodge nerf and so on
I think under L65 dodge and crit don't even come close to your proposed caps ;)

Fortunately kingfu's hit % proposal brought very usable und balanced hit % across the board

glad to see you posting after all these years. not much i can add (without taking away from the thread), mages need a damage reduction of some sort (whether that be: crit reduction, raw damae reduction) at levels in and around 20-40.

IMO the main thing changing the higher level you are should be damage and armor

The percentage stats hit crit dodge can't vary that much or you get unbalanced builds like that 250 % hit stuff they just had in endgame or the dodge problem addressed in this thread

So I think it's the non-percentage stats that should be scaled over the levels
Attackelfs cap idea would lead to that by converting percentage stats to non-percentage stats and that I like

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhoIsThis

Is there a potential solution?

A dodge cap.

Say, the maximum dodge is 60% after any dodge would go to armor.


Let's say:
Dodge Cap = 60%
Armor Modifier = 2 for each percentage

We have a character with 80% dodge and 200 armor.

So they would have actually:
60% dodge
Modified Armor = 200 (base armor) + 200 (base armor) * (80%, which is the character's dodge - 60% dodge cap) x 2 = 240 armor.

This character has 60% dodge and 240 armor now instead of 80% dodge and 200 armor.

Note: I'm not sure what the correct dodge cap and modifier are, but I think that 60% is a good starting point and 2% for the armor cap.

Other notes
This is a very simple proposal, but it may be a "quick win" if done correctly (ex: the right percentages used). It may need tweaking by class as well (ex: the dodge cap might need to be different per class). It will require a lot of feedback, but could balance end game. In that regard, it could be the simple mechanic that fixes dodge, but getting the percentages right will likely take several revisions.

Keep in mind the impact of buffs when these caps are on and off.

I'm not sure what the dodge cap should be, as I said, but 60% is a good starting point I'd say. I think that gives a good balance between dodge and damage. Too much dodge favors strength based builds (especially bears), while too little makes dodge ineffective. Tweaking will be needed as discussed. 60% is a starting point, but an I'd say an educated guess.

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First off, thoughtful post should be appreciated but there are few concern -

To do this they have to touch core algorithm and make changes into it, but this upto em, if they would try to do it or not. But roll back, I don't think that's gonna happen in any way.

Having a flat dodge cap simply means everybody would dodge same amount of hits on an average, which is AGAINST basics of pl, because dodge has been an advantage to specific class/gear, so when they don't have it, they have other advantages in the place.

Flat dodge cap also wouldn't serve the basic purpose to make PvP more than mostly luck based because then you also know why you suggested ~60% [>50%]which would still make mostly dodgy on an average.

Let's come to the class spefic dodge cap, as you also mentioned that this would take lots of tweaking BUT flat dodge cap also would take lots of tweaking because of the reason I already mentioned, some would loose the advantage of high dodge and some would have advantage of dodging same even though armor would be replacement, SIMPLY BECAUSE armor can't replace dodge directly BUT ARMOR CAN BE USED TO balance classes that means in both cases it would take lots of tweaking.

If you need tweaking, then simply best solution is to squeeze the percentage base stats and then in future bring new gear/cap etc in an way that these percentage based stats eg. dodge, hit%, crit etc remain in a healthy stat that means new gear/cap won't increase these stats. And then you can tweak other stats to balance classes and gear, this is pretty much long term and better solution, exactly this has been done mostly.

Also let me tell you even though dodgepoclypse quite dramatic name, dodge isnot totally eliminated, neither it should be if we don't wanna think something out of pl, rather dodge along with other % stats should remain in a healthy state.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruby!!!

IMO the main thing changing the higher level you are should be damage and armor

The percentage stats hit crit dodge can't vary that much or you get unbalanced builds like that 250 % hit stuff they just had in endgame or the dodge problem addressed in this thread

So I think it's the non-percentage stats that should be scaled over the levels
Attackelfs cap idea would lead to that by converting percentage stats to non-percentage stats and that I like

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The modifier to damage and armor, like the cap may have to be modified a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waug

First off, thoughtful post should be appreciated but there are few concern -

To do this they have to touch core algorithm and make changes into it, but this upto em, if they would try to do it or not. But roll back, I don't think that's gonna happen in any way.

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One thing to note about the "Core algorithm" - they just made modifications in the latest patch. My interpretation of that is that they are willing to do so.

Note where it says "statistics":
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...s-Super-Elites

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waug

First off, thoughtful post should be appreciated but there are few concern -

Having a flat dodge cap simply means everybody would dodge same amount of hits on an average, which is AGAINST basics of pl, because dodge has been an advantage to specific class/gear, so when they don't have it, they have other advantages in the place.

Flat dodge cap also wouldn't serve the basic purpose to make PvP more than mostly luck based because then you also know why you suggested ~60% [>50%]which would still make mostly dodgy on an average.

Let's come to the class spefic dodge cap, as you also mentioned that this would take lots of tweaking BUT flat dodge cap also would take lots of tweaking because of the reason I already mentioned, some would loose the advantage of high dodge and some would have advantage of dodging same even though armor would be replacement, SIMPLY BECAUSE armor can't replace dodge directly BUT ARMOR CAN BE USED TO balance classes that means in both cases it would take lots of tweaking.

If you need tweaking, then simply best solution is to squeeze the percentage base stats and then in future bring new gear/cap etc in an way that these percentage based stats eg. dodge, hit%, crit etc remain in a healthy stat that means new gear/cap won't increase these stats. And then you can tweak other stats to balance classes and gear, this is pretty much long term and better solution, exactly this has been done mostly.

Also let me tell you even though dodgepoclypse quite dramatic name, dodge isnot totally eliminated, neither it should be if we don't wanna think something out of pl, rather dodge along with other % stats should remain in a healthy state.

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That's why I wanted a class specific dodge cap. Or it could also be based on what the person specs out:;

• Global dodge cap of say, 60%
• Str and Dex based builds might get 60%, along with pally (defined as 50% or more allocated to Str)
• For int it may be as low as 30%

The actual numbers will have to be worked out.

To be honest, I always felt that having PvP luck based was a bad idea. I've seen games where 30% dodge has been more than adequate to make important tactical considerations in class vs class combination.

I prefer skill based over the luck of a random number generator myself, which would make the game a bit more like an FPS or perhaps something like Team Fortress or Overwatch. Getting a kill depends on your ability to pull off the shots, especially in the case of units like snipers.




Another even more complex option might to follow WOW - each piece of armor gives a fixed amount of points, of which declines for each level. That would require lots of work, but might be a very satisfying game overall.

Good to see you posting again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MightyMicah

Good to see you posting again.

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Thanks. Will be on and off.

Currently don't have that much time or money. I got laid off near the end of last year.

PM me if you want to get in touch.