You should not have nerf-ed root or freeze. >:(

First of all, I'd like to ask why the decision to nerf root/freezing on bosses. I'm curious as to the thought process that went behind such a decision. Maybe I am missing something here and I am just being closed minded etc. If I knew the logic behind it, maybe I can understand and empathise with it.

Secondly, I'd like to point out WHY nerfing thorn root / freezing is a bad illogical and unfair idea.

These two skills are kitting skills. They keep the opponent in place whilst you stay afar and do damage. Now, most monsters are not worth kitting, the only real opponent you need to kite are bosses.

But wait! Now Bosses are now immune to these two kitting skills. Wow, so um. whats the point of root then? Mages still will use freezing spells because it combos with their spells but archers have no combo with root spells. So what is the point of root for archers?

I can understand nerfing freeze, because of ice weapons. esp auto xbows. This gives the possibility of perma-freezing a boss. But to nerf a skill because of a weapon is not really fair to a class, is it? And root? god knows why it was nerfed.

Now, as illogical as it sounds, warriors are the best kiters with their stomp. The huge knock back and chance to stun, along with low cool down means you can potentially keep a boss at a distance with out him ever touching you. illogical, because warriors are meant to be melee classes. Having a skill which sends your target flying half way across the map and you need to chase after him, is weird.

um because if you make the boss stick in one spot for the entire duration of the fight and it has no ranged attack its just plain boring, if it cant hit you its like kicking a chained up dog.

and yes theres still reason to use root, what with trolls and the like

That's why running away and attacking is fun. :3

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Originally Posted by Dilarus

um because if you make the boss stick in one spot for the entire duration of the fight and it has no ranged attack its just plain boring, if it cant hit you its like kicking a chained up dog.

and yes theres still reason to use root, what with trolls and the like

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So its ok to use strategies like kitting and keeping a distance with small bosses, but with big bosses we're not allowed to use tactics?

What a Wonderful idea!

On secondly thought, no not really its a load of crap.

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Originally Posted by Splurd

I can understand nerfing freeze, because of ice weapons. esp auto xbows. This gives the possibility of perma-freezing a boss. But to nerf a skill because of a weapon is not really fair to a class, is it? And root? god knows why it was nerfed.

Now, as illogical as it sounds, warriors are the best kiters with their stomp. The huge knock back and chance to stun, along with low cool down means you can potentially keep a boss at a distance with out him ever touching you. illogical, because warriors are meant to be melee classes. Having a skill which sends your target flying half way across the map and you need to chase after him, is weird.

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First off, ice weapons have no rooting or freezing effects, so this bit about understanding why they would nerf freezing instead of root is baseless.

Next warriors are in no way the best kiters at all. It sounds illogical... well because it is illogical. First off its unnecessary as a warrior can solo a boss with iron blood and evasion while using super mega slash to keep the boss stun locked (and no super mega doesn't knock back anymore). Furthermore if you wanted to try and attempt to kill a boss only with stun, it would take forever, you would still have to run away quite a bit while stomp cooled down and if you messed up the timing you would still have to use other skills. Lastly Mage firestorm knocks back a lot farther than stomp just for the record, its not as if stomp is some super broken move.

Now as for your overall point:
Bosses will never stop following a player once aggroed, so mages and archers can simply run in the opposite direction while button mashing auto fire and never be caught unless a lag spike hits. I'm not sure you were aware that range works against a mob while you are moving and facing opposite the mob 180 degrees. Any archer that has been rely on thorn root to solo a mob quite frankly doesn't understand the class very well.
And if you ever run out of space in the dungeon you cleared out getting to the boss, simply knock the boss back or stun the boss. Range kiting is still by far the most effective means of killing a boss.

This change was made to make the game a little harder and more tactically challenging. While you may feel that you are loosing a tactical advantage, the reality is you will now have to use just a tiny bit more tactics as a group in order to easily defeat bosses (often in less than 10 seconds). And even now, its still comically easy to beat dungeons in this game. I'm actually quite surprised you are so displeased about it. It makes sense for bosses to be immune to certain effects, such immunities are what makes them powerful, more of a challenge, and thus a "boss".

Edit: They already rolled back some of the changes they made, by allow stuns and fears etc to work once again.

There is no reason to complain about this change.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

First off, ice weapons have no rooting or freezing effects, so this bit about understanding why they would nerf freezing instead of root is baseless.

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Nope, You're mistaken here. Ice bows do freeze. Just that ice monsters are immune to freezing. This is why I mentioned it. I double check everything before I say it.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Next warriors are in no way the best kiters at all. It sounds illogical... well because it is illogical. First off its unnecessary as a warrior can solo a boss with iron blood and evasion while using super mega slash to keep the boss stun locked (and no super mega doesn't knock back anymore). Furthermore if you wanted to try and attempt to kill a boss only with stun, it would take forever, you would still have to run away quite a bit while stomp cooled down and if you messed up the timing you would still have to use other skills. Lastly Mage firestorm knocks back a lot farther than stomp just for the record, its not as if stomp is some super broken move.

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Compare firestorm cooldown with stomp cooldown. As to which knocks back more I don't know. But stomp is far more spammable.
Assuming the boss does not hit anything, he gets knocked back far enough such that you can cast it again *just* as he reaches you. And if he gets stunned, even better.
And I never said anything about solo-ing. I'm talking about kiting ability. And yes, I said it was illogical that a warrior has such a good kitting skill.
And besides, I'm a bow bear, pew pew pew. I know a over powered char when I use one. And I am using one.

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Now as for your overall point:
Bosses will never stop following a player once aggroed, so mages and archers can simply run in the opposite direction while button mashing auto fire and never be caught unless a lag spike hits. I'm not sure you were aware that range works against a mob while you are moving and facing opposite the mob 180 degrees. Any archer that has been rely on thorn root to solo a mob quite frankly doesn't understand the class very well.
And if you ever run out of space in the dungeon you cleared out getting to the boss, simply knock the boss back or stun the boss. Range kiting is still by far the most effective means of killing a boss.

This change was made to make the game a little harder and more tactically challenging. While you may feel that you are loosing a tactical advantage, the reality is you will now have to use just a tiny bit more tactics as a group in order to easily defeat bosses (often in less than 10 seconds). And even now, its still comically easy to beat dungeons in this game. I'm actually quite surprised you are so displeased about it. It makes sense for bosses to be immune to certain effects, such immunities are what makes them powerful, more of a challenge, and thus a "boss".

Edit: They already rolled back some of the changes they made, by allow stuns and fears etc to work once again.

There is no reason to complain about this change.

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Removing tactical options does not always make something more tactically challenging.

I am displeased not because I am upset that I cant kill my boss. Like you said, its simple to just run away from them. BUT it is quite stupid, if running from bosses is the only tactical method I have to defeat one. It is quite stupid, that my thorn root skills is now useless.

I am ALL for making bosses more challenging. But not by gimping a class. You make the bosses harder, not the characters weaker. Its like saying "blast shot will now no longer work on bosses, because they were dying too fast"

Like I said, I simply would like to know the logic behind it.

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Originally Posted by Splurd

Nope, You're mistaken here. Ice bows do freeze. Just that ice monsters are immune to freezing. This is why I mentioned it. I double check everything before I say it.

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After testing out my ice bows, you are right that they freeze, but the proc is very low and why i didn't notice on my first round of testing. Its probably around 5-10% chance.
Edit: However the the freeze effect still works on the ice knights in Lost expedition.

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Originally Posted by Splurd

Compare firestorm cooldown with stomp cooldown. As to which knocks back more I don't know. But stomp is far more spammable.
Assuming the boss does not hit anything, he gets knocked back far enough such that you can cast it again *just* as he reaches you. And if he gets stunned, even better.
And I never said anything about solo-ing. I'm talking about kiting ability. And yes, I said it was illogical that a warrior has such a good kitting skill.
And besides, I'm a bow bear, pew pew pew. I know a over powered char when I use one. And I am using one.

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Can't say i find bow bears to be any more effective than an archer, but thats just from my experience. I would ask though why you find the lack of root to be an issue if your not talking about soloing or two maning. Clearly the idea of the class system is that if you face a boss in a group, a tank takes agro etc. If you are in a group without a tank, why shouldn't there be a price to pay for not having a balanced group (and i would add its hardly a sacrifice to have all archer groups).

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Originally Posted by Splurd

Removing tactical options does not always make something more tactically challenging.

I am displeased not because I am upset that I cant kill my boss. Like you said, its simple to just run away from them. BUT it is quite stupid, if running from bosses is the only tactical method I have to defeat one. It is quite stupid, that my thorn root skills is now useless.

I am ALL for making bosses more challenging. But not by gimping a class. You make the bosses harder, not the characters weaker. Its like saying "blast shot will now no longer work on bosses, because they were dying too fast"

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The archer class isn't in any way "gimped" by not being able to root bosses. Stuns still work such as avian scream, as do your debuffs and knock backs. Archers are still highly effective, and many argue the best class (and easiest to use), though I don't like making that statement.
It is not like saying blast shot doesn't work, because that is a damage spell, not an affect spell. If and Enchantress wants to be able to solo a Lost Expedition boss, they have to spec in such a way that will allow them to do so, magic shield and debuffs for example, and maybe that means that can't spend points on other spells. Or the enchantress can kite.

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Originally Posted by Splurd

Like I said, I simply would like to know the logic behind it.

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Id be happy to see a dev post, however i think it is safe to assume that the logic behind it is that they want to make bosses harder to defeat and differentiate boss battle from regular battles in a more diverse way that simply giving bosses more damage and health. Immunities are a classic way of doing that. First they made bosses immune to almost all affects, and then they decided to make them only immune to some affects.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

After testing out my ice bows, you are right that they freeze, but the proc is very low and why i didn't notice on my first round of testing. Its probably around 5-10% chance.
Edit: However the the freeze effect still works on the ice knights in Lost expedition.




Can't say i find bow bears to be any more effective than an archer, but thats just from my experience. I would ask though why you find the lack of root to be an issue if your not talking about soloing or two maning. Clearly the idea of the class system is that if you face a boss in a group, a tank takes agro etc. If you are in a group without a tank, why shouldn't there be a price to pay for not having a balanced group (and i would add its hardly a sacrifice to have all archer groups).



The archer class isn't in any way "gimped" by not being able to root bosses. Stuns still work such as avian scream, as do your debuffs and knock backs. Archers are still highly effective, and many argue the best class (and easiest to use), though I don't like making that statement.
It is not like saying blast shot doesn't work, because that is a damage spell, not an affect spell. If and Enchantress wants to be able to solo a Lost Expedition boss, they have to spec in such a way that will allow them to do so, magic shield and debuffs for example, and maybe that means that can't spend points on other spells. Or the enchantress can kite.



Id be happy to see a dev post, however i think it is safe to assume that the logic behind it is that they want to make bosses harder to defeat and differentiate boss battle from regular battles in a more diverse way that simply giving bosses more damage and health. Immunities are a classic way of doing that. First they made bosses immune to almost all affects, and then they decided to make them only immune to some affects.

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The reason why they only made them immune to some affects is that, break shot only purpose in life is to be casted on bosses. No bothers to cast it on a normal mob.
Same logic allies to root.

And Archers other skills, avian scream and repulse arrow, do pitiful knock back, if compared to other classes knock back skills.

The bow bear is more effective then an archer. Dps wise, its around the same. Bear crits less offten, but does higher damage crits. The bear shines because he can tank (iron blood) and kite (stomp) and stun. But if you want to discuss bow bear vs archer, we can do that in another thread. Lets go back to topic.

Let me ask you then, now that you cannot root bosses, what is the point of thorn root? It's already bugged, and now its useless. Joy.

And PvP is not out yet, so this nerf has nothing to do with that.

I mean, if you are arguing that a archer can function perfectly fine without root, then why was there a need to nerf it? That is simply shooting your own argument down. The *had* to be something unfair about the skill such that it required a nerf.
People say you could potentially thorn root a boss such that he never moves.
Well, with 2 warriors I can stun lock a boss so he never attacks. I think that is far worse. But bosses are allowed to be stunned, but not rooted.

Which brings me to my first question. WHY? what was the logic behind it? I cannot fathom the reason.

I mean, I understand every single change the devs made. I see what they are trying to achieve. I understand why kills for monsters with no exp dont count. I understand why a lvl 1 can join a lvl 30 map. I dont agree with these choices, but I understand their point of view.

Nerfing root and freeze? no comprende amigo.

I'm using excessive snide and sarcasm here, such is my character, but I dont really want to offend.

I'm not offended, and generally we agree, but we happen to disagree on this root issue and the kiting issue. Rather than go in circles on the forum we nay as well chat about it sometime in chat box.