About time to close the damage gap between bows and daggers?

I haven't used a bow for a long time and I would love to use a bow this season, specifically the spirit bow. Unfortunately, the damage gap created between bows and daggers has always meant that a bow is only ever useful so long as it has a somewhat-broken proc. Since bows don't give a single stat advantage over daggers (daggers have it all and more), could the damage gap between them be closed by a little? There is currently circa 300 damage between them on their raw stats. If this was closed down to at least 150 damage between them, I wouldn't mind using a bow.

I know there is a bonus % damage attributed to auto attacks but after the immortal corruption bow became outdated (proc nerfed), that function seems lost on bows.

In the least, could this apply to the spirit weapons alone?

They are a new rarity.

While you're at it change close the damage gap between mage guns and staffs ;)

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Originally Posted by Spheresome

While you're at it change close the damage gap between mage guns and staffs ;)

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This too ;)

I agree. Even if bow damage was increased as OP requests, there would still be balance due to the daggers having more armor and thier ability to strike multiple enemies at once.

A devs opinion on this would be much appreciated before I make my choice on a spirit weapon (and others do I guess).

Definitely agree with you. I haven't used a bow since the Tindirin expansion (except a few weeks of Dread Bow) since daggers seem to be much more powerful compared to bows. Players looking to buy pink 71 weapons will always strive towards the daggers because they are simply so much better than the bows.

Guns and bows deal 250% extra damage on auto-attacks . Staffs and Daggers are mean to have more skill damage which is why they have more damage stat , since skills scale with that .

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Originally Posted by Gouiwaa9000

Guns and bows deal 250% extra damage on auto-attacks . Staffs and Daggers are mean to have more skill damage which is why they have more damage stat , since skills scale with that .

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I understand your point but what has been happening since this was introduced to the different weapon types is one is always a better choice. There has been no middle ground.

I'll be honest with you, I don't think this affects mages as much as it affects rogues. Why? Simply because I have seen mages succeed in PvP using staffs. I have rarely seen a rogue use a bow in PvP since this was put in place.

You could say immortal corruption bow but that was useless in PvP after some months of its release. You could also say dread bow but that was useless in PvP some weeks after its release. What did these bows have in common before their expiry? Somewhat-broken procs.

As a mage, sure, you can use your gun all you want with your arcane shield to protect you.

As a rogue, you're dead before your auto attack lands.

I despise daggers and yes to getting a decent bow. We haven't had one for ages. 'nuff said. 😔

+1 Buff the spirit bow stats STS and all spirit stats in general. Given the time and dedication required to craft these, it's a joke for them to be at level of Mythics. Make e'm more powerful so they last the time and effort it takes to craft them. Make them go up to lvl 60 70 or beyond in this expansion or a way or means so that our current effort in crafting this season's spirit's does not go to waste when the next expansion arrives. There should be either a level cap increase or a means to extract the soul of this spirit to fast craft the next spirit. Just my humble opinion.

The increased basic attack damage, as some mentioned, was meant to be the counter to lower skill damage and armor. Previously bows were the king and no one used daggers unless they had broken procs. It sounds like you're saying the increased skill damage is greater than the increase in basic attack damage. We can look at this and keep it in mind, just want to verify a few things.

1) Is it just the Skill Damage increase compared to the Basic Attack increase that you feel isn't balanced?
2) Does the lack of armor contribute to this feeling of daggers being the best? (The armor is a counter to the lack of range, but maybe this needs to be tuned down some)
3) Is this a PvP only thing or does the feeling exist in PvE as well?

Another thing - i haven't entered pvp in a while , but i constantly see rogues with some insane dodge stats , that would be another reason as to why skill damage is a priority for most . Why invest in basic attack damage and have a high possibility of it being dodged when skills connect 100% of the time ? ( also explains why some mages use a staff )

As for pve , i feel like most of the rogues i see also use daggers since the damage bonus combined with they ability to ignore healing and use 4 offensive skills provides alot more dps .

Vroom, the real problem is that normal attacks simply aren't useful compared to skill attacks. Skill attacks are what people care about, and they do the most damage. The normal attack damage right now simply isn't enough to keep up. I wish bows had more damage, but lower DPS, like they used to. You need to make the bow damage like 5x dagger damage to have any true balance.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

The increased basic attack damage, as some mentioned, was meant to be the counter to lower skill damage and armor. Previously bows were the king and no one used daggers unless they had broken procs. It sounds like you're saying the increased skill damage is greater than the increase in basic attack damage. We can look at this and keep it in mind, just want to verify a few things.

1) Is it just the Skill Damage increase compared to the Basic Attack increase that you feel isn't balanced?

Yes, higher basic damage that only affects one mob does not make up for slightly lower basic damage that affects multiple mobs. Add to that, lower skill damage as well!!
Part of this is psychological. If damage was reflected differently on the stat screen more players would use bow. We simply look at a rogue with daggers and see 3500 damage and then look at a rogue with a bow and see 2500 damage and assume daggers are better. Remember that stats and vanities are a huge driving point as to what to use or wear. It's all about the bling sometimes.
I will say one of the best bows post lvl 57 was the dusk bow because its proc allowed us to hit multiple mobs. That was an awesome feature that helped bows.

2) Does the lack of armor contribute to this feeling of daggers being the best? (The armor is a counter to the lack of range, but maybe this needs to be tuned down some)

This makes a difference, but not a huge difference. However it is just one more thing a player sees higher on thier stats page and says "hmm, daggers are better due to higher armor".

3) Is this a PvP only thing or does the feeling exist in PvE as well?

Armor is a big necessity, as well as skill damage in pvp, so it's crazy to think you can rely on basic damage to help you in pvp, which is the only thing bows have going for them.

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See my answers in Vroom's text above.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

The increased basic attack damage, as some mentioned, was meant to be the counter to lower skill damage and armor. Previously bows were the king and no one used daggers unless they had broken procs. It sounds like you're saying the increased skill damage is greater than the increase in basic attack damage. We can look at this and keep it in mind, just want to verify a few things.

1) Is it just the Skill Damage increase compared to the Basic Attack increase that you feel isn't balanced?
2) Does the lack of armor contribute to this feeling of daggers being the best? (The armor is a counter to the lack of range, but maybe this needs to be tuned down some)
3) Is this a PvP only thing or does the feeling exist in PvE as well?

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Firstly, the armor bonus attributed to daggers during that change was on the basis that you need to be up close to enemies at all times. This is simply untrue, you can use all ranged skills while wielding a dagger.

Regarding bows previously being the king, they were because they simply had more damage than daggers, which was a mistake from the start. They were the obvious choice. Daggers should have had more damage from the beginning but not such a difference in damage as today.

My opinion on question 1 is if the skill damage of both weapon types were the same, bows would be an option even with the lower armor. If you were to remove this auto attack bonus and just buff the damage stats to be close but not on par (150-ish damage between them), I believe there would be more diversity in weapon type usage. Some would prefer being tanky with a 500-ish more raw armor bonus from a dagger, while others would prefer being more ranged with damage that still counts.

You need to take into account that you can use ranged skills (aimed shot, shadow storm shot, noxus bolt and ultimate aimed shot) while wielding a dagger (logically doesn't make sense but its possible). So forcing auto attack on a bow with all stats lower than a dagger is really just killing a weapon type.

My opinion on question 2 is I believe the armor bonus daggers have is correct in response to their weapon type and function but once again, you need to remember that you can use ranged skills with a dagger.

My opinion on question 3 is I believe its a problem in both areas.

Daggers having so much more raw and skill damage than bows shouldn't happen unless dagger users can no longer use ranged skills.

I don't PvP so it's a PvE issue for me. The bow just doesn't do anything against bosses. I've always disliked daggers because I like the range a bow gives especially against bosses. Back in the days of yore, we rogues would use daggers for mobs and bow for the boss. Now it seems to be t'other way round. The dread bow, which I use, is embarrassing come boss time but daggers are alien to me after all these years. I'm loathe to sell my bow because it works well for me on Maus mobs.( lich is well, nigh on impossible..I use a lot of bombs there).

Ok so the general thought I'm hearing is:

- If Bows were equal (or closer) to daggers in terms of their contribution to Skill Damage, there would be higher diversity in Rogues for bow/dagger users

Argument for Equal:
- The Rogues who are using daggers aren't really staying up close they're using ranged skills so they just have more damage and higher armor
- Setting up extra Armor (daggers) vs a Basic Attack you can use (bows) would be enough of a tradeoff
- But the bonus damage for basic attacks would need to be removed to remain equal

Argument for Closer but not Equal:
- If Dagger Rogues are choosing not to get close and use basic attacks, they should suffer some type of penalty (proc chance, basic damage)
- Bows could keep their harder hitting basic attack (which increases their boss DPS even further compared to daggers in PvE)

1. It makes sense that daggers have more armor since you have to be in the thick of things to gain added basic damage to mobs/boss. No need to change that.
2. I don't think it would hurt to bring raw/basic damage of bows more in line with daggers, removing the 200% basic attack bonus of course.
3. Balance should be achieved when a player has to decide if they want higher armor and to strike multiple enemies or lower armor with multiple ranged shot options at one enemy.

Overall damage should be relatively equal between them both. It should be a question of defensive weapon vs offensive weapon. Not: Daggers have higher damage, DPS, armor, and can hit multiple mobs at once as well. The bows 200% basic damage bonus isn't that great anyways, and therefore is not factored into most players decision on bow or dagger, imho.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

Ok so the general thought I'm hearing is:

- If Bows were equal (or closer) to daggers in terms of their contribution to Skill Damage, there would be higher diversity in Rogues for bow/dagger users

Argument for Equal:
- The Rogues who are using daggers aren't really staying up close they're using ranged skills so they just have more damage and higher armor
- Setting up extra Armor (daggers) vs a Basic Attack you can use (bows) would be enough of a tradeoff
- But the bonus damage for basic attacks would need to be removed to remain equal

Argument for Closer but not Equal:
- If Dagger Rogues are choosing not to get close and use basic attacks, they should suffer some type of penalty (proc chance, basic damage)
- Bows could keep their harder hitting basic attack (which increases their boss DPS even further compared to daggers in PvE)

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If we continue allowing daggers to use bow skills (which is fine with me) we should remove the auto attack damage bonus on bows and go back to days where daggers only had (if I remember correctly): more health, more crit, more dodge, more armor and more DPS than bows.

If we were to start this for level 71+ weapons, there shouldn't be a better choice in terms of spirit weapons anyway, they have the same proc. It would just be what suits your style.

Let's say, you give bows the same damage as daggers, I wouldn't mind a dagger having bonus health.

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Originally Posted by Perceval

If we continue allowing daggers to use bow skills (which is fine with me) we should remove the auto attack damage bonus on bows and go back to days where daggers only had (if I remember correctly): more health, more crit, more dodge, more armor and more DPS than bows.

If we were to start this for level 71+ weapons, there shouldn't be a better choice in terms of spirit weapons anyway, they have the same proc. It would just be what suits your style.

Let's say, you give bows the same damage as daggers, I wouldn't mind a dagger having bonus health.

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Yes! Well said.

Increase Bows and Guns Attack speed by 15% to trully benefit from the 250% Stronger basic Attack damage. This will trully befenit range shooters. Who does not like a higer firing rate?

Just make bow and dagger damage equal. No one cares about auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by wowdah

Just make bow and dagger damage equal. No one cares about auto attacks.

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I mean, all the broken procs that have been released/fixed over the years kind of beg to differ =P

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

I mean, all the broken procs that have been released/fixed over the years kind of beg to differ =P

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It would be nice if procs could happen from Auto attack or skill use :P

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Originally Posted by thekragle

It would be nice if procs could happen from Auto attack or skill use :P

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You say nice, I say "very very bad for us" hahaha

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

You say nice, I say "very very bad for us" hahaha

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Is halfing the range of skills when using a dagger an option?

In your opinion vroom, is increasing bow stat and skill damage even an option?

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Originally Posted by Perceval

Is halfing the range of skills when using a dagger an option?

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At this point in AL's lifetime, sadly this is not an option. This would require a major skill overhaul and be very risky.

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Originally Posted by Perceval

In your opinion vroom, is increasing bow stat and skill damage even an option?

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This is absolutely an option, and the direction I'm leaning towards!

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

This is absolutely an option, and the direction I'm leaning towards!

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Thank the arlorian God's!!

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

This is absolutely an option, and the direction I'm leaning towards!

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That's great. I guess I'll wait till a decision is made before I buy a spirit weapon. Thanks

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

I mean, all the broken procs that have been released/fixed over the years kind of beg to differ =P

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Yes, but the vast majority care about the proc more than the damage on the proc usually - many would like the bow damage to be comparable to the dagger damage, if not equal. The bonus damage on bow auto attack isn't really coveted for, and many players don't really care about it.

I presented this case a while ago with respect to Guns and Staffs. I believe the conditions are similar for Bow and Daggers.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

1) Is it just the Skill Damage increase compared to the Basic Attack increase that you feel isn't balanced?

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Bows and Guns are single target weapons, hence the increase in basic attack damage should be a counter to the spread damage provided by Daggers and Staffs. At present the Skill damage from Daggers and Staffs are higher than Bows and Gun.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

2) Does the lack of armor contribute to this feeling of daggers being the best? (The armor is a counter to the lack of range, but maybe this needs to be tuned down some)

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Not really, though the armor difference should not be very drastic that people don't even consider using a ranged weapon.

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Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

3) Is this a PvP only thing or does the feeling exist in PvE as well?

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My thoughts are based on PVE only, though the lack of armor does affect players in PVP.

The damage output for both weapons should be same. IMO only the stats for survivability (health/armor) should be affected based on range.