Requesting the return of PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

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Originally Posted by ( DAMAGE )

thats the exact problem it has to be fixed wisely..
mages make no place for rogues in a clash but u have to remember that nerfing as breakingbad is suggesting simply will make rogues invincible at soloing yes it will balance clashes but it will again make rogues unbeatable in a 1 v 1

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Then why not go with Energizeric's suggestion of diminishing return of heal? Tanks have the same thing because their heal applies to group.

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Originally Posted by Zeus

Then why not go with Energizeric's suggestion of diminishing return of heal? Tanks have the same thing because their heal applies to group.

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His idea was really good but I think that the diminishing effect should only apply to the team not the caster

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

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while there was all those tests StS was doing neither they nerfed mage shield nor warrior juggernaut, and each class was looking even in statistics, so why change it now? Why do you want to play with game balance again? The game PvP was never more balanced at this very moment. And btw you're forgetting that mages CAN die using fully upgraded shield, warriors CAN'T die using fully upgraded juggernaut!

Having spent the last few weeks in pvp as a close to max Mage (1 para, no eyes though, few Superb, Nobles and 1 exquisite jewel) the Blood Beach TDM matches seem pretty even. Sure, vs undergeared teams it's a wipe, but teamwork takes over during equally geared matches.

As Imbaaack said before, Rogues with speed set are nearly unkillable. I've seen plenty of rogues die quickly and plenty survive. Usually because they play well or there is good teamwork. No different for mages.

Wars are doing fine, and those with the Glint set plus Arc sword, even better.

The matches have been entertaining, especially when I'm on a class balanced team. That said, the second my shield goes down, I'm easy fodder for any rogue to pick off (or War to pull). So I have to be careful during that time.

Based on what I've seen, this proposal to nerf shield and Jug will put both classes at the mercy of Rogues. No doubt in my mind.

My .02



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

What is so hard for the mage community to understand?

Everyone is doing 50% less damage in PvP now. Yet the arcane shield STILL ABSORBS THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE IT ABSORBED BEFORE THE CHANGE, WHICH MEANS IT WAS ESSENTIALLY BUFFED BY THE CHANGE AND NOW ABSORBS 2X MORE DAMAGE THAN IT SHOULD.

VROOM HAS POINTED THIS OUT.

A unintended 'somewhat bug' benefitting a class (regardless of how) (just like the wildfire proc) is nevertheless subject to fixing.

From this point i'll be treating the fact that the arcane shield absorbs 2x more damage than it should as a BUG that needs fixing.

This has now become a request for a bug fix.

A bug the developers themselves discovered.

DUDE WHAT CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
While they were doing those tests with damage nerfs in pvp jugg and arcane shield stayed absolutely same, and all classes were even said by STS, so why tf you gotta cry and bring in the imbalance again?

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Originally Posted by Vrazicak

DUDE WHAT CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
While they were doing those tests with damage nerfs in pvp jugg and arcane shield stayed absolutely same, and all classes were even said by STS, so why tf you gotta cry and bring in the imbalance again?

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The developers figured this one out mate.

I should mention, I was prepared for all the insults and attempts at getting this thread locked due to drama from members of the mage community.

I am so tired to fight for equal and fair pvp experience for boths sides in forums. This is not my job, this is the developer team's job, they should be aware of the issues and act acordingly

cleaerly as almost Every single rogue and some of the mages and warriors agree on the "dps" class rogue is currently useless in pvp, period.

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

The developers figured this one out mate.

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believe it or not, I'm a warrior, my mage is retired
I'm not supporting any class I'm just pointing at the freaken logic right here

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Originally Posted by Vrazicak

believe it or not, I'm a warrior, my mage is retired
I'm not supporting any class I'm just pointing at the freaken logic right here

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And I'm pointing at a bug :)

Sadly, this fix may hurt the mage class but they will learn to get over it and develop new strategies.

Haven't warriors and rogues learnt to get over such?

*Rogue armor nerf
*Rogue damage nerf
*Rogue combat medic nerf
*Rogue aimed shot nerf
*Warriors elondrian bulwark nerf
*Warriors lvl 46 arcane sword nerf
*Warriors gear progression

Regarding these as 'bugs that were fixed' further supports me btw.

TBH nobody wants balance. Everyone wants to kill other class very easily.

And this global Nerf thing was about only damage and health regeneration as far as I know.

If you guys want to Nerf arcane shield by 50% then Nerf everything by 50% why exclude crit dodge health and other stats too. Don't forget about nekro damage reduction too plz.

Make it twink legends.

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Originally Posted by yubaraj

TBH nobody wants balance. Everyone wants to kill other class very easily.

And this global Nerf thing was about only damage and health regeneration as far as I know.

If you guys want to Nerf arcane shield by 50% then Nerf everything by 50% why exclude crit dodge health and other stats too. Don't forget about nekro damage reduction too plz.

Make it twink legends.

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Keeping damage reduction untouched while nerfing damage by 50%.

You're joking right?

Doesn't the 50% dmg reduction for mage sheild halve all damage? Seems prety balanced to me since the developers said they were only halving health and damage.

For example if you get hit by 1k dmg when you had a sheild up, you would take 500 dmg (b4 pvp nerf)

So now if you get hit with 1k dmg its now 500 due to nerf and then 50% reduction from sheild gives it 250 dmg taken.

It seems like sheild is doing what is supposed to, why not buff rogues instead?

Is this correct or am i missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Otahaanak

Having spent the last few weeks in pvp as a close to max Mage (1 para, no eyes though, few Superb, Nobles and 1 exquisite jewel) the Blood Beach TDM matches seem pretty even. Sure, vs undergeared teams it's a wipe, but teamwork takes over during equally geared matches.

As Imbaaack said before, Rogues with speed set are nearly unkillable. I've seen plenty of rogues die quickly and plenty survive. Usually because they play well or there is good teamwork. No different for mages.

Wars are doing fine, and those with the Glint set plus Arc sword, even better.

The matches have been entertaining, especially when I'm on a class balanced team. That said, the second my shield goes down, I'm easy fodder for any rogue to pick off (or War to pull). So I have to be careful during that time.

Based on what I've seen, this proposal to nerf shield and Jug will put both classes at the mercy of Rogues. No doubt in my mind.

My .02



IGN: Cryformana, Drizzitty

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Any class with speed set is hard to kill. If you hit a speed set rogue, he will die. If you hit a speed set sorcerer, he will die. However, in the times you don't, they are hard to kill.

If only rogues had speed set, Imbaaaack's statement would make sense. However, this is not the case. All classes have speed set and all of them are deadly when they use it.

That still doesn't render the fact rogues do not have a place in team based PvP if warrior and sorcerer stacks are present invalid. Also, sorcerers have built in speed debuffs in their skills that render a speed set rogue useless. You land that one skill and a speed set rogue is suddenly pure food. The same goes with any other class.

In fact, I would argue that a speed set sorcerer is more deadly than a speed set rogue. The reason being it is impossible to speed debuff a sorcerer with shield. So, a sorcerer can debuff other's speed set and render it useless with skills like ice whilst still keeping the speed themselves.

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Originally Posted by Oaheuzihar

Doesn't the 50% dmg reduction for mage sheild halve all damage? Seems prety balanced to me since the developers said they were only halving health and damage.

For example if you get hit by 1k dmg when you had a sheild up, you would take 500 dmg (b4 pvp nerf)

So now if you get hit with 1k dmg its now 500 due to nerf and then 50% reduction from sheild gives it 250 dmg taken.

It seems like sheild is doing what is supposed to, why not buff rogues instead?

Is this correct or am i missing something here?

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Damage reduction should be reduced alongside damage. Its only logical.

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

This has now become a request for a bug fix.

A bug the developers themselves discovered.

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Then I think your jugg should also be reverted back to what it was

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

I would like the developers to bring back these suggestions and fixes they proposed.

Vroom pointed out:

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.

This all makes sense so why was the fix for these not implemented?

Requesting a developer response.

- your friendly neighborhood Balanceboy.

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The reason 7/21 proposed change were shelved is very simple: the idea of nerfing creates a massive backlash and significant player anger. Nerfing should be a last resort, not the first option. These particular proposed changes I strongly disagree with because they the benefit reduction is so severe. It also makes little sense because, after a few expansions, the damage reduction of shield/jugg would scale to almost nothing. It's very counter intuitive.

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

And I'm pointing at a bug :)

Sadly, this fix may hurt the mage class but they will learn to get over it and develop new strategies.

Haven't warriors and rogues learnt to get over such?

*Rogue armor nerf
*Rogue damage nerf
*Rogue combat medic nerf
*Rogue aimed shot nerf
*Warriors elondrian bulwark nerf
*Warriors lvl 46 arcane sword nerf
*Warriors gear progression

Regarding these as 'bugs that were fixed' further supports me btw.

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If rogues had learned to get around their armor nerfs these threads wouldn't be happening weekly also as you stated half of those are fixes not nerfs