Gems/Crafting/Upgrading has altered PvP balance.....

After taking much of the last 2 months off from PvP, I starting doing PvP again this past week. What I discovered is a vastly different balance between classes than existed when I last played regularly a couple of months ago. Here are my observations below. Keep in mind I am talking only about end game PvP here....

1) Warriors are much harder to kill than before, and 2 warriors together are impossible to kill even with 3-4 mages/rogues. The party with more warriors wins almost always regardless of gear.

2) Rogues are now very easy to kill. In fact, I find myself doing well even against 2-3 rogues at the same time, usually managing to kill at least one of them before they kill me, and often times killing all of them and surviving the battle.

3) Battles are lasting longer than before, which in general is a good thing.


So I kept wondering why suddenly things seem so vastly different, and then it occurred to me..... GEMS! Why would gems and crafting alter PvP balance? In order to understand that, we have to understand how Gems affect our stats....

So far, gems only give us STR/DEX/INT points, but do not give damage or critical stats. The makeup of our damage stats come only partly from our general stat points, but mostly from actual damage amounts included in our gear. However, health points come only from the general stat points, and rarely is health added as a separate addition, although a the new Tarlok Heart amulets do have 100 health added.

So by increasing everyone's general stat points, but not increasing damage & critical points, the net result is that everyone has significantly higher health, and to a much lesser degree only a very small increase in damage. That is what is making battles last longer.... big health increase with only a small damage increase equals longer battles.

But then how does this affect balance between the classes? Longer battles favor classes that have longer skill cool down times and better healing skills, i.e. warriors. Rogues on the other hand would normally finish a warrior off fast before he can heal himself. But now that the warrior has higher health, that is proving harder to do.

Warriors tend to add blood gems to all of their items, which give 30-60 extra health per gem. A full mythic warrior would have 15 gems, and would therefore see an increase of 450-840 health, depending on how many normal or super gems he has in his gear. As the warrior is adding all STR to their gear, they receive increased damage for each of these STR points they add.

Mages tend to add mostly INT and maybe some STR from their gems. So their health increase is not as much as warriors, but since most mages use Shield, the amount of damage the shield can absorb also increases from INT/STR points added. Because mages are adding some STR though, they lose out on some possible damage boost they would get if they choose only INT.

Rogues tend to add DEX and maybe some INT. So they see the least health increase of the 3 classes.


I'm not sure what the solution is to fix this problem and restore balance. One possible solution is to add some more gem options into the mix, some that include damage or critical bonus. Another option would be for STS to slightly boost damage across the board for all classes, not so it changes anyone's stats, but just so that we see the effects in PvP only.

Anyone have any thoughts? Am I the only one who has noticed these changes? We were talking about them in guild chat today and it seemed that everyone agreed that warriors are now OP, even the warriors. The question was posed "what strategy should I use when I encounter a warrior with a Glaive?" The answer was "run".

Yeah I've noticed that wars are significantly stronger now.and yes the team with the most wars does often always win now. Though I as we'll have no idea how to fix this issue.

Warriors should have confusion on choosing str & int stat
Mages on int and str
Rogues confuse between dex, int and str... Lol

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Originally Posted by baddiva

Warriors should have confusion on choosing str & int stat
Mages on int and str
Rogues confuse between dex, int and str... Lol

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Problem is, only rogues and mages have that confusion. Warriors? They just have the ability to go pure str with no consequences.

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Originally Posted by Zeus:1391984

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Originally Posted by baddiva

Warriors should have confusion on choosing str & int stat
Mages on int and str
Rogues confuse between dex, int and str... Lol

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Problem is, only rogues and mages have that confusion. Warriors? They just have the ability to go pure str with no consequences.

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Agree, I said this when gems were introduced. Warriors hypothetically benefit the most as they can simply go full str without virtually no second thought.
One would assume they could use int but VB makes it unnecessary.

Mages on the other hand will choose int or str which will be a tough choice but in the end both will help the shield.

Rogues can use all three so they have the most room to experiment/mess up build.

Lets just say: Warriors are BY FFAAARRRR overpowered! U dont need to enter 1vs warrior as a full myth experienced mage, the result is clear - mage dead... So 1vs1 -> NO! Lets have a look at tdm 4on4, lets say team a has 1 warrior, team b has none -> even if team b consits of better skill/teamplay team a will win!
4on4 team a has 2 warriors, team b none -> you dont need to play cause its obvious what will happen!
The whole pvp, no matter if ctf or tdm is just dominated by warriors... if thats what the game should be then we should consider of stop pvp or all just go in as warrior...
This was the case before GEMs appeared but after its just even worse!!!

Using Blood gem on a sorcerer equipment is a bad bad idea. It has no benefit compared with a single respec and put some point on str instead of going full int, and just makes your gear pvp use only.

Increased damage all around has effectively lowered all of our relative armor values. Since warriors gain the most hp with their damage they naturally gain the most, whereas rogues and mages are left trying to balance hp with damage. Gameplay has sped up significantly with kills taking less time and hits. I have noticed that I can kill rogues faster but also that I get suckered with my shield down far easier as well. Warriors were OP before and only got more so now.

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Originally Posted by Nesox

Increased damage all around has effectively lowered all of our relative armor values. Since warriors gain the most hp with their damage they naturally gain the most, whereas rogues and mages are left trying to balance hp with damage. Gameplay has sped up significantly with kills taking less time and hits. I have noticed that I can kill rogues faster but also that I get suckered with my shield down far easier as well. Warriors were OP before and only got more so now.

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This is an excellent point. Even if damage were to be raised across the board to make up for the increased health given by gems, warriors still benefit the most from a damage increase because they have the highest armor and therefore they block a higher percentage of damage than do rogues or mages. So I don't know if there is really a good solution to fixing this other than a warrior nerf. I'd like to think you could make some adjustment across the board that would fix things, but increasing damage to make up for the health increase may not have the desired effect.

As we continue to go up to higher levels, this will be a constant issue. Warriors get max health and damage from the same stat (Strength) while rogues and sorcerers must do a balancing act to achieve both. At lower levels warriors had to worry about mana, but now at higher levels even rogues rarely have to worry about mana, and mages have so much mana you never run out. I think the only way for STS to keep things in balance is to make higher damage weapons for both rogues and mages. In past seasons they seem to have accomplished this with only the arcane maul having high warrior damage, and it was rare enough as to not affect balance too much. But now tons of players seem to have the maul, more than I can ever remember having hooks in season 3-4, and far more than have arcane staff. So maul has become a mainstream and very common weapon. Add to that the new glaive/bonesaw that also has very high damage and you have a ton of warriors running around who can hit almost as hard as mages and rogues, yet have double the armor and health.

I hate to suggest a nerf. What really needs to happen is a nerf to both maul and glaive/bonesaw. Problem is people have paid big bucks for those items and would be very angry if they got nerfed (as would I if I owned one of those). So I think perhaps the solution is to just make sure to fix this issue going forward. Make sure in future expansions not to give warriors weapons that are as powerful as those rogues and mages get. Each class is supposed to be best at something. When the class with the highest armor and health also has equal damage to the other classes, then that is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric:1394465

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Originally Posted by Nesox

Increased damage all around has effectively lowered all of our relative armor values. Since warriors gain the most hp with their damage they naturally gain the most, whereas rogues and mages are left trying to balance hp with damage. Gameplay has sped up significantly with kills taking less time and hits. I have noticed that I can kill rogues faster but also that I get suckered with my shield down far easier as well. Warriors were OP before and only got more so now.

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This is an excellent point. Even if damage were to be raised across the board to make up for the increased health given by gems, warriors still benefit the most from a damage increase because they have the highest armor and therefore they block a higher percentage of damage than do rogues or mages. So I don't know if there is really a good solution to fixing this other than a warrior nerf. I'd like to think you could make some adjustment across the board that would fix things, but increasing damage to make up for the health increase may not have the desired effect.

As we continue to go up to higher levels, this will be a constant issue. Warriors get max health and damage from the same stat (Strength) while rogues and sorcerers must do a balancing act to achieve both. At lower levels warriors had to worry about mana, but now at higher levels even rogues rarely have to worry about mana, and mages have so much mana you never run out. I think the only way for STS to keep things in balance is to make higher damage weapons for both rogues and mages. In past seasons they seem to have accomplished this with only the arcane maul having high warrior damage, and it was rare enough as to not affect balance too much. But now tons of players seem to have the maul, more than I can ever remember having hooks in season 3-4, and far more than have arcane staff. So maul has become a mainstream and very common weapon. Add to that the new glaive/bonesaw that also has very high damage and you have a ton of warriors running around who can hit almost as hard as mages and rogues, yet have double the armor and health.

I hate to suggest a nerf. What really needs to happen is a nerf to both maul and glaive/bonesaw. Problem is people have paid big bucks for those items and would be very angry if they got nerfed (as would I if I owned one of those). So I think perhaps the solution is to just make sure to fix this issue going forward. Make sure in future expansions not to give warriors weapons that are as powerful as those rogues and mages get. Each class is supposed to be best at something. When the class with the highest armor and health also has equal damage to the other classes, then that is a problem.

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Completely agree. And on your point about the amount of warriors with Maul and Glaive I am in agreement, the amount is astounding. Hooks were never THAT common but it seems a lot of warriors somehow got a hold of mauls (bundled with Sam eggs) and has turned pvp into a game of whichever side has the most warriors will usually win.

Day of winter update I joined a game on my rogue and we were all rogues 4 vs 4, we even commented on how fun it was without warriors.

my oponion is tarlok ruin this game in low lvl, i feel the same when rogue lvl 15 kill me very fast note that im lvl 16 and wear top gear season I

I agree as a tank It takes a while for me to die I could take on two tanks

lol yes i recently tried 1v1 tdm. warr can 3-4 hit me and aimed is much more useless now considering the high armour. and yes, maul and glaive too over powered and both pve and pvp, though nerf is NOT a good idea. as said above sts should only change the future, not the past. and i only can kill rogues now. no mage because of stunlock.

ps now i quit pvp

I KNOW!! I was a rogue twink at 26.. I felt so squishy. Rogue vs rogue fights for me sometimes lasted 1 combo and I'm dead even though I had 2400+ health! IMO, damage is not proportional to health anymore. I think full exceptional at 26 might give about 200 health tops. But damage? ) I'm pretty sure beforehand, legendary rogues had about 210-215, mythic without hooks had 220-225, and hooks and mythics had I think 240-245. But now, not sure about every rogue, but I think I had about 227 without tarlok helm. Mythics are now at about 240-245 and hooks are at some ridiculous number. Lowest ones are around 275, highest I've seen is a scary 296...

To put this in perspective, I have about 2450 health. A hooks rogue comes up to me, crit charge aim, and I'm left with anywhere between 300-400 left. Then they nox, forget pierce, and I'm dead. Hooks gave a good advantage before the update, but less than 1 combo is plain ridiculous. Even against legendaries is hard. I think my aimed shot does about 1400-1500 no charge on critical. If a rogue comes up to me and crit aim, then hits normal on nox and pierce, I'm left with a measly 200 health - not long enough to pick up packs to survive the next combo.

So now rogue duels are PURE LUCK - who hits first and who crits first. Now the typical stun combo is just completely OP. Unless you have hooks and mythic or primarily STR gear, if stun works right you WILL die before you can move an inch.

Against warriors, I do feel like they are harder to kill. I don't quite remember how much health warriors had before update, but now the norm is 4200-4300. I saw a full exceptional with NEARLY 5K HEALTH, and not to mention the standard 1110 armor. Generally, I could kill warriors before they heal, but now it's iffy...if I don't crit then I gotta go with luck and pray they don't kill me before I recover my mana.

I quit PvP as well just because it stopped being fun after this update.