armor and armor boosts irrelevant

I was using my 76 fox to do some Vampire Feast runs and I found that I seemed much more vulnerable than I'd expect. It didn't make sense why I was just as prone to dying now as I was back when I was "supposed" to be playing in Fang. So I started watching the numbers, and I came to the conclusion that armor seems not to be a factor at all, at least against some foes. Here's a good example case to help illustrate the point.

I fought Lofus using my fox, a pure dex build using crafted swift dragon helm and armor and a phoenix bow. This setup provides 199 armor and 552 health. In addition, I had a 3x combo daily blessing. At one point in the battle, I was at full health blasting away when Lofus fired off his super attack, one-shotting me to death. The damage that floated over my head was 580.

Let's calculate what hit Lofus must have generated in order to one shot me. The way I understand it, armor works by subtracting the armor amount from the incoming damage. (Someone correct me if this is wrong.) So, an incoming hit of 300 against a player wearing 100 armor results in 200 health being subtracted. In this case, I died to a 580 hit through my armor, so let's back calcuate the original hit he must have generated: 580 + (199*3) = 1177. He needed to have hit that hard in order to pound through my 3x combo enhanced armor.

Now, is Lofus even capable of dealing this much damage? I'm not sure, but if he is then he is incredibly overpowered for a level 60-65 boss. The best equivalent set that my character could wear at 65 would have been crafted sanguine bow set, which has an armor of 134, fully 65 armor units worse than what I had on at 75. So if armor is actually being taken into account the way it should, that means Lofus is capable of generating in a single shot 4 times more damage than is needed to kill a fox/bird/mage at level 65 wearing the best possible gear. That seems pretty crazy.

The alternative thought I had is that maybe armor simply doesn't apply to some hits. Foes like Vlod and Lofus seem just as able to one shot me whether I have a 3x combo on or not, and seem not to care that I now have 60+ more armor at 75 than I used to at 65. This just doesn't make sense, because the only explanation if armor counts is that they regularly do 3x more damage than they need to kill me (thus making my combo blessing armor boost irrelevant). However, if you instead assume that armor doesn't apply at all to their gigantic special attacks, then it makes a lot more sense. With armor out of the picture, I am literally the same at 75 as I was at 65, i.e. just my 550 or so health points up against the giant hit.

So I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect there are some damage attacks that completely ignore armor in the calculation. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Fusionstrike

...So if armor is actually being taken into account the way it should, that means Lofus is capable of generating in a single shot 4 times more damage than is needed to kill a fox/bird/mage at level 65 wearing the best possible gear. That seems pretty crazy...

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I think he probably does generate that much damage. Think of Gurgox that used to one-hit everybody. When 50 was the level cap you could only beat him by knowing how -- there was no possible way to stand toe-to-toe with him. They add bosses like this to force players to learn to use a strategy to beat them. In Lofus's case, it's RUN AWAY, then back, wash, repeat. I like these bosses better than just the mega-hp ones that you just have to pound for hours. Well, Lofus is kind of simple, but the AO3 and sand caves have some interesting ones.

Fwiw, the one that I particularly hate is Emma. Ugh.

Rhino is the opposite of the fox

Yeah I got a 73 fox he dies pretty quick

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Originally Posted by Multibird

Rhino is the opposite of the fox

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If they combined the rhino and fox into one class, that'd be OP. :D

i think Norbert is dead on. these bosses have trick attacks, and tricks seem op if you dont use the work around.
lufus can one shot but he does not move before so u can get away
emma has the every 6 second armor stripping attack again dodgeable
duke hits hard but has a double whammy attack in tandom with the thrall. killing the thrall imediately helps.
gobble hits like a puppy but is made out of adatmantium, no big trick here other than not getting pushed around ( the exception to the "trick" bosses here)
vlad has an attack that one shots, but is avoidable if you cant stand toe to toe, you stay close untill he flings you out of his one shot range.
not that you dont know these, but just reiterating trick bosses are made to be way tougher than the "appropriate level" they are set at.
that said i still think i should be able to survive koal and red dragon with my 76 who has an egg, ring, AND combo elixir. their one shot doesnt have an easy trick out.

Armor Maxes out at 80%, so you could have a 1000 armor against a boss that hits for a 1000 and would still take 200 damage. This is the reason thrasher birdies are still so squishy in BSM. Though, that is not what is going on here, it is what Norbert says, the boss has an ~unblock able~ attack which you have to avoid or die.

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Originally Posted by Suentous PO

emma has the every 6 second armor stripping attack again dodgeable

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Aha moment! I wasn't sure if it was random or not and always too busy dying to notice. Thanked!

I thought lofus can kill in one shot with his super attack..
I once ran with 3x combo elixer+ 3x daily (from vencint the vendor) and had full swift talon set+founders helm+plat stat ring equipt and I still died..

My 76 bear with egg, elite ring, shamrock, and savage set can withstand 99% of the time, the most damaging attack from Emma and vlod, And Koal. But without a healer, I'd really have to spam pots to survive. These bosses are designed to try and force you to use a party to defeat them. Surviving Koal's blast does me no good if the orange teddy bears are there scratching away my health.

I agree with everyone who states that these bosses are that way for a reason (i.e. to require strategy), but it misses my point. What I'm saying is that I see absolutely no difference between playing them normally and having a blessing that gives me three times my usual armor. Nobody finds that at all strange? You can literally triple your defenses and it has no effect at all. Can you think of any other aspect of PL, or any other game for that matter, where a factor of 3 improvement is completely irrelevant?

What I'm commenting on is the mechanism by which PL pulls this off. There are basically two possible ways. One, the foe could simply put out so much damage that it completely overwhelms all defenses, elixir or no. The second is that the damage calculation is made in a different way for this kind of attack such that armor is completely ignored. Everyone seems to be saying it's method one, these guys just hit a titanic amount. I'm questioning that assumption.

Let's look at another example. When I fight Lofus on my 76 bear, I just completely ignore his big attack and stand in there pounding him. Why? Because he can't one shot me, so I just health pot back up after the hit. The best he can do is get me down to about 1/4 health if he really tags me. My bear has 890 health and 319 armor in crafted savage dragon set. But if method one is correct, then he should be able to kill me. After all, I calculated that he put out 1177 damage in the example above, enough to kill me (or leave me with the tiniest sliver of health if I'm completely full), and certainly enough to scare me away from just standing there taking the punishment. So to me, it sure looks like he's just hitting for straight up 500-700 damage and ignoring armor, which would regularly lead to a dead fox even on a 3x combo but allow my bear to ignore his hits with impunity.

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Originally Posted by Norbert

Aha moment! I wasn't sure if it was random or not and always too busy dying to notice. Thanked!

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Just don't start counting as soon as you see her, she may be at any moment in her cycle. She may start with it or it may take a few seconds to see where it start/ends.
@ Fusion- "no one finds that odd that you can triple def. and still die (paraphrased)"
No, only because there is a trick built in that lets you avoid the one shot. Just like magnetic golem, goldfeaver, et all. It may be unique to this game but I'm used to it.

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Originally Posted by Fusionstrike

I agree with everyone who states that these bosses are that way for a reason (i.e. to require strategy), but it misses my point. What I'm saying is that I see absolutely no difference between playing them normally and having a blessing that gives me three times my usual armor. Nobody finds that at all strange? You can literally triple your defenses and it has no effect at all. Can you think of any other aspect of PL, or any other game for that matter, where a factor of 3 improvement is completely irrelevant?

What I'm commenting on is the mechanism by which PL pulls this off. There are basically two possible ways. One, the foe could simply put out so much damage that it completely overwhelms all defenses, elixir or no. The second is that the damage calculation is made in a different way for this kind of attack such that armor is completely ignored. Everyone seems to be saying it's method one, these guys just hit a titanic amount. I'm questioning that assumption.

Let's look at another example. When I fight Lofus on my 76 bear, I just completely ignore his big attack and stand in there pounding him. Why? Because he can't one shot me, so I just health pot back up after the hit. The best he can do is get me down to about 1/4 health if he really tags me. My bear has 890 health and 319 armor in crafted savage dragon set. But if method one is correct, then he should be able to kill me. After all, I calculated that he put out 1177 damage in the example above, enough to kill me (or leave me with the tiniest sliver of health if I'm completely full), and certainly enough to scare me away from just standing there taking the punishment. So to me, it sure looks like he's just hitting for straight up 500-700 damage and ignoring armor, which would regularly lead to a dead fox even on a 3x combo but allow my bear to ignore his hits with impunity.

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I fought him using my bird with 3X armor (prob same as you, 200 standard, so 600 lixered). Took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. Fought him again with 1.5x blessing so 300 lixered ... took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. While I did not see either that killed me because the the rev screen popped up I can say what they were and that is crits. The 450s were dark red, so that means he can be crittin 900.
This one is a puzzle. Techno says that the max armor is 75%, but that does not work here. That would mean his full hit is 2000, and 600 vs 300 armor would make a big difference. Where the armor max is noticeable is in BSM where mobs hit for around 800. This means if you have 600 armor, you are 'maxed'. So if you are using a 3x, anything over 200 makes no difference, they are gonna hit you for 200 no matter what, and since crits are ~after~ armor, they can hit you for 400. This means a bird can have 300 armor, thrasher, 3X blessing, and STILL die from two mob crits. Fun!
Oh, back to this, it is either a 'completely ignores armor' or 'minimum damage' instead of a percentage. There is no other way to get 450 damage after hitting both 600 AND 300 armor.

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Originally Posted by FluffNStuff

I fought him using my bird with 3X armor (prob same as you, 200 standard, so 600 lixered). Took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. Fought him again with 1.5x blessing so 300 lixered ... took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. While I did not see either that killed me because the the rev screen popped up I can say what they were and that is crits. The 450s were dark red, so that means he can be crittin 900.
This one is a puzzle. Techno says that the max armor is 75%, but that does not work here. That would mean his full hit is 2000, and 600 vs 300 armor would make a big difference. Where the armor max is noticeable is in BSM where mobs hit for around 800. This means if you have 600 armor, you are 'maxed'. So if you are using a 3x, anything over 200 makes no difference, they are gonna hit you for 200 no matter what, and since crits are ~after~ armor, they can hit you for 400. This means a bird can have 300 armor, thrasher, 3X blessing, and STILL die from two mob crits. Fun!
Oh, back to this, it is either a 'completely ignores armor' or 'minimum damage' instead of a percentage. There is no other way to get 450 damage after hitting both 600 AND 300 armor.

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The only thing I can think of that would disprove that theory is that the range between the minimum and maximum damage is extremely vast, which seems highly unlikely. Then again, it is a boss, so you never know...

Any one remember the.combo/thrasher glitch? That causes more damge to or something ? I member people talking about this awhile back, maybe its still active

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Originally Posted by xcainnblecterx

Any one remember the.combo/thrasher glitch? That causes more damge to or something ? I member people talking about this awhile back, maybe its still active

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I'm thinking it's not a glitch, but it is this problem that made people think it was a glitch. It would certainly explain why Gold Fever hit me for around the same elixir or no elixir.

Interesting Observation,

My bear has 300-ish armor , so with the combo elix , which includes an armor elix (x3)
I should and must have 900 (fictive) armor points ?

a devs input please?

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Originally Posted by FluffNStuff

I fought him using my bird with 3X armor (prob same as you, 200 standard, so 600 lixered). Took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. Fought him again with 1.5x blessing so 300 lixered ... took two shots that registered around 450 each and one that killed me. While I did not see either that killed me because the the rev screen popped up I can say what they were and that is crits. The 450s were dark red, so that means he can be crittin 900.
This one is a puzzle. Techno says that the max armor is 75%, but that does not work here. That would mean his full hit is 2000, and 600 vs 300 armor would make a big difference. Where the armor max is noticeable is in BSM where mobs hit for around 800. This means if you have 600 armor, you are 'maxed'. So if you are using a 3x, anything over 200 makes no difference, they are gonna hit you for 200 no matter what, and since crits are ~after~ armor, they can hit you for 400. This means a bird can have 300 armor, thrasher, 3X blessing, and STILL die from two mob crits. Fun!
Oh, back to this, it is either a 'completely ignores armor' or 'minimum damage' instead of a percentage. There is no other way to get 450 damage after hitting both 600 AND 300 armor.

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Very interesting. Your experience seems pretty close to mine. I'd love to hear what the devs have to say.

It is probably armor has a max multiplier or a max. When STS had the forgotten event the power helm gave out the same damage with the helm alone and the helm+x3. I also think only XP elixers stack since using a x3 blessing is the same as using x3 blessing with x4 Trasher in terms of atk and def. I have tested it so it 100% true.

Also vlod has a special attack that is like the mage's drain life and ignores armor since he is stealing hp and it steal "X" amount of life not deals "X" amount of damage. I have tested this out with a bear wearing same armor but one had more stats to the STR hence having more HP and he did not die while the other did die. His atack seems to be from 600-700 so you need more then 700 hp not to die. The attack also has a cool down of atleast 6sec since that was the fastest he reused that attack on me while I tested on him.

As for Lofus his special powered-up attack does a set amount of damage. It is like the pokemon attacks that do same damage no matter the defence and/or type(ex. Dragon Rage does 40 damage). So just like vlod you would need a tank to survive his attack. This attack does 500-600 damage and 10 more damage for every PL meters you are closer to him starting at 5meters from him. So if you are next to him you get +50 more damage for a max of 650 damage which I also tested out. I did a boss guide for the Mt. Fang expansion so if you need more help feel free to ask since I tested out all the Mt. Fang bosses for max effectiveness for farming and clearing.