Solution to fix the issue of rogues being OP in PvE

[Energizeric]

We have all noticed that rogues are overpowered in PvE. All of the timed runs leaderboards are dominated by rogues, and there are even some all rogue teams on those leaderboards. But you never see an all sorcerer or all warrior team. And even mixed teams tend to be 3 rogues plus a warrior or sorcerer.

The reason is that rogues deal the most damage by far, so they can finish the dungeons much quicker. The downside to rogues in PvP is that their healing capacity is not as good as the other classes, and they cannot regenerate their own mana. However, in PvE they can just spam potions to solve both of those issues.

This also gives them a big financial advantage as they can farm elite dungeons solo while other classes must search for a party to farm with. More farming = more elite drops = more gold.

The solution to fixing this is putting a cooldown on potions, just like there is on skills. Maybe you can only use a potion once every 5 seconds (or some other number, this would have to be tested by STS). But all classes spam potions, not only rogues, especially in elite dungeons as there is no other way to survive.

If STS were to implement the following changes, this would fix that issue as well:

1) Add a 5 second cooldown for potions (both health and mana combined, i.e. if you use a health potion, you cannot then use a mana potion until you wait 5 seconds). This makes sense as a person can only drink a potion so fast before they can then drink another.

2) Nerf the damage dealt by elite mobs and bosses to the point that a warrior can easily survive with the 5 second potion cooldown, a sorcerer can survive with the 5 second cooldown in combination with using their heal skill, and rogues cannot survive without the help of a sorcerer or warrior to help with the healing.


Making these changes will cause the following changes/fixes:

1) All teams will now need a support character, either a warrior with HOR or a sorcerer with Lifegiver, and in some of the more difficult elite dungeons you will probably need 2 or 3 such players on your team.

2) As a result, timed runs leaderboards will no longer be dominated by rogues, but instead mixed teams.

3) This will eliminate the big advantage rogues have in the ability to solo elite dungeons. Now they too will have to find a party to farm with if they want to do elites.

4) Many of us have complained that elite farming costs too much between the cost of potions and pet feeding. This will help save all players money as it will mean less gold spent on potions, and therefore players will be more encouraged to farm elite dungeons.

[Zeus]

We have all noticed that rogues are way OP in PvE. All of the timed runs leaderboards are dominated by rogues, and there are even some all rogue teams. But you never see an all sorcerer or all warrior team. And even mixed teams tend to be 3 rogues plus a warrior or sorcerer.

The reason is that rogues deal the most damage. The downside to rogues in PvP is that their healing capacity is not as good as the other classes, and they cannot regenerate their own mana. However, in PvE they can just spam potions.

The solution to fixing this is putting a cooldown on potions, just like there is on skills. Maybe you can only use a potion once every 5 seconds. But many classes spam potions, especially in elites as there is no other way to survive.

Well, if STS were to implement the following changes, this would fix that issue as well:

1) Add a 5 second cool down for potions (both health and mana combined, i.e. if you use a health potion, you cannot then use a mana potion until you wait 5 seconds). This makes sense as a person can only drink a potion so fast before they can then drink another.

Interesting suggestion, but there is many a reason why this simply would not work. As a sorcerer, you do not face receiving aggro nearly as much as rogues. Therefore, your opinion on this matter is biased. Have you seen how rogues have to spam pots to stay alive without other classes? Also, take note that on top of spamming potions, they are expected to fire skills as well. So... even if suggestion 2) was implemented as well, you want rogues to choose between surviving and being conservative with skills? I can assure you, 1 mana pot will be used up by any good rogue in 1 second flat. Thus, you will have empty mana bar rogues running around. What are we supposed to rely on? A sorcerer having heal? A lot of them do not and also do not know how to properly play their classes. Therefore, that is why potions were created. To nerf them would be very detrimental.

2) Nerf the damage dealt by the elite mobs and bosses to the point that a warrior can easily survive with the 5 second potion cooldown, sorcerers can survive with the 5 second cooldown and using their heal skill, and rogues cannot survive without the help of a sorcerer or warrior to help with the healing.

Again... the warrior and sorcerer will be expected to have heal. What if they don't? What if they do not know how to time it properly? I do not want to place my kill to death ratio at the hands of other players. Everybody knows that rogues die enough as it is.

This will mean that all teams will need a support character, either a warrior with HOR or a sorcerer with Lifegiver, and in some of the more difficult elite dungeons you would probably need 2 or 3 such players on your team. Then the timed runs will no longer be dominated by rogues but will be mixed teams.

So you want normal, every-day runs to be slower for the sake of a few leaderboard banners? Currently, the way the system is, all classes can be on timed runs. The purpose of timed runs is optimizing damage, so as a result, if one can survive, of course maximum damage will be the fastest.

This will also eliminate a big advantage rogues have which is the ability to solo elite runs, while other classes cannot. This currently gives them a huge financial advantage since they do not have to search for a party to farm elites with as other classes do.
There is no huge financial advantage whatsoever. Every run, if I am spamming potions like any good rogue should, I burn anywhere from 2k-4k gold a map. So trust me, a rogue's pockets empty much quicker than a warrior's or sorcerer's pockets.

Also, this will help save all players money as it will mean less gold spent on potions. As many of us have complained that elite farming costs too much, this will help with that issue as well.
At the cost of much longer runs, correct? This is a mobile MMO, I don't want runs longer than they already are (which are already pretty darn long).

I'm sorry, Energizer, but I disagree.

Why? See the bolded reasons.

These changes are not worth it for the sake of a few leaderboard times. They would just slow down the game as a whole. Also, doing more than these suggestions would cost far too much in R&D.

[Energizeric]

A couple of comments about your comments:

1) I was not suggesting that using pots should cost mana. I just meant they should have a cooldown so you can't spam them.

2) With regard to your suggestion that the maps will slow down, let STS nerf them to the point that they will NOT slow down but will stay the same as they currently are but with the new system in place.

3) I know you are saying that you spend lots of mana potions, but I don't even have the option to run elite dungeons solo and spend a lot on potions. My device touch screen in combination with my thumbs cannot spam potions fast enough for my sorcerer to stay alive in Arena or in elite dungeons. The mobs and bosses simply hit way too hard. Warriors do not have the option to run elite dungeons solo either as they will be able to survive but cannot cause damage fast enough to beat the boss, i.e. I've seen plenty of cases where the boss heals faster than the warriors can cause damage. To use a PL reference, it's like trying to fight the bandit queen solo while at level 55.

So either make there be a way for sorcerers and warriors to also be able to solo elites, or else change the system in a way so that all classes cannot solo. Right now the way the system is, it is not fair. I don't even run elite dungeons anymore because of this. The last time I ran an elite dungeon to farm it, and not for an achievement was 6 months ago. I've tried about 20 or 30 times since then and never managed to finish the boss. I'm in a pretty large end game guild (190+ level 30/31 members) and nobody ever wants to run elites, and when they do we always end up dying before we finish the boss.

4) It's very convenient for rogues that the potions happen to solve the 2 problems that rogues have. For sorcerers since we have lifegiver, we don't really benefit so much from potions. Perhaps they should have an aimed shot potion that I can spam to cause more damage. (a little sarcasm there, but you get my point).

Just to show my point, if they allowed use of potions in PvP I think rogues would never lose a fight to anyone. Do you disagree?


Or maybe they should do what they did in PL which is to make it no potions at all in elite dungeons, but nerf those dungeons considerably to make up for that.

[Zeus]

A couple of comments about your comments:

1) I was not suggesting that using pots should cost mana. I just meant they should have a cooldown so you can't spam them.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not saying that using pots should cost mana, but you are saying to have a cooldown so that you can't spam them.

For your sake, I'll take your hypothetical situation into account.

Scenario A:
A tank is not doing his/her job properly, or we are simply overpowering their taunts. Now, a rogue has an option, take ONE health potion, or ONE mana potion. If he chooses to take that mana potion, he can spam his DPS for 1 second more before having to wait another 5s due to pot cooldown. Also, please note that is IF he survives.

Simply, what you are asking WILL cripple the game without a doubt. You picked your class, deal with not being able to be the fastest for timed runs. I wish that I could control mobs like a sorcerer could, but I can't. Also, ask any all rogue party. It really isn't a solo. Why? Rogues die MANY MANY MANY times. Example: Ask Azepeiete how many times he runs a map so he can finish a timed run record without any deaths from a rogue. Then, if we're taking elixir runs into account, plat revive is the only other reason that they can run solo.

2) With regard to your suggestion that the maps will slow down, let STS nerf them to the point that they will NOT slow down but will stay the same as they currently are but with the new system in place.
Again, too much work for little outcome. What's the outcome? Leaderboards? Big whoop. They are simply not going to change the game over a few rogues dominating the leaderboards (which isn't the case if one looks at any Nordr elite maps that actually do require tanking ability).

3) I know you are saying that you spend lots of mana potions, but I don't even have the option to run elite dungeons solo and spend a lot on potions. My device touch screen in combination with my thumbs cannot spam potions fast enough for my sorcerer to stay alive in Arena or in elite dungeons. The mobs and bosses simply hit way too hard. Warriors do not have the option to run elite dungeons solo either as they will be able to survive but cannot cause damage fast enough to beat the boss, i.e. I've seen plenty of cases where the boss heals faster than the warriors can cause damage. To use a PL reference, it's like trying to fight the bandit queen solo while at level 55.
Again, most rogues cannot run solo. Only a very few can. Ask any rogue to run solo and let me know what you will come up with. More then often, I guarantee you that it will be a dead rogue. Also, again, a rogue is supposed to deal damage, so let it deal damage. Even if we take into account pot spamming, it usually is not fast enough to save our butts. Take a look at Shuyal. The 1st record time was a 4 party team but the 4th person left the match at the last boss due to death from not being able to spam pots fast enough.

So either make there be a way for sorcerers and warriors to also be able to solo elites, or else change the system in a way so that all classes cannot solo. Right now the way the system is, it is not fair. I don't even run elite dungeons anymore because of this. The last time I ran an elite dungeon to farm it, and not for an achievement was 6 months ago. I've tried about 20 or 30 times since then and never managed to finish the boss. I'm in a pretty large end game guild (190+ level 30/31 members) and nobody ever wants to run elites, and when they do we always end up dying before we finish the boss.
I honestly don't see the issues in the elite dungeon. I pair up with tanks and mages all the time and it runs just fine. However, if I decide to go all rogue, I know that I will be spamming at least 300 pots that run and end up with numerous amounts of deaths. Again, sorcerers and tanks CAN do the same thing, however, since they are not a damage class, the outcome will not be the same.

4) It's very convenient for rogues that the potions happen to solve the 2 problems that rogues have. For sorcerers since we have lifegiver, we don't really benefit so much from potions. Perhaps they should have an aimed shot potion that I can spam to cause more damage. (a little sarcasm there, but you get my point).

Just to show my point, if they allowed use of potions in PvP I think rogues would never lose a fight to anyone. Do you disagree?
Yes, I agree. However, there is a reason that they don't.


Or maybe they should do what they did in PL which is to make it no potions at all in elite dungeons, but nerf those dungeons considerably to make up for that.
PL's elite dungeons are much quicker and different. There are only a few elite dungeons which do not allow usage of pots and those elite dungeons don't have very many mobs.

In short, any class CAN solo and spam potions fast enough. If I want to live as a rogue SOLO, I literally have to stop attacking and spam potions until the attack wave finishes off. Also, what you are asking has essentially no solution. Potions are meant to be forgiving of human errors. If you ask to give a cool-down on them, people WILL complain more than they already do. Why? Not everybody is extremely skilled.

The issue with leaderboards? Deal with it. That's just how it's going to be. In all MMOs, if you look, the damage class will be able to kill bosses and complete runs the fastest. However, it is at the cost of many deaths. Thus, this is a problem that plagues all MMOs and just something that people will need to get used to. The fact is that there are still plenty of maps that require utilization of all classes & most of the time, a combination of the classes is MUCH more effective than running all rogues.

Don't believe me? Try out a combination of classes. You'd be surprised at the differences you'd get.


You want equal opportunity for timed runs? The issue is lacking of class combos in AL. That is THE ONLY reason why rogues get a huge benefit in timed runs.

Now, if you can get STS to add extremely effective class combined combos that are AOE, that is the way to solve the problem of rogue dominated leaderboards. The method that you've suggest simply will not work.

[Alfai]

Agree with apollo.

No idea why rogue as the damage dealer (being a rogue) is perceived op.
Whilst we do crits and dmg more than other classes (being a rogue) but its always at expense of something.in this case pots.im not sure bout your point that you screen is huge.if thts the case imagine rogue who has no options but to stretch their fingers and make it happen or die.

And pots consumption and expenses for rogue is way much more.still it doesnt really a factor to be rich.i remember how tough to survive for rogue in the eatly levels when keep on dying at elites.as for me its aoways deficit when pots vs gold saving.maybe other classes cn make money out of it not sure.

Btw i bumped into rasi earlier soloing crates farming at km3.something that is not seen often before the mage update.perhaps mage can benefit from the speed passive i dont know since rogue seem op for timed runs.

Cross finger that once the arcane mage wep is out sorc can take up the role of dmg dealer too than being a support class.

*grabbing popcorns

[Venom]

Dude this is a stupid suggestion. How the hell do you expect to survive in elites without spamming potions?? Why do you even have a problem with rogues being OP? You are a mage, your class gonna be OP coz of arcane staff. How about removing all stuns from Mage class? As a 'solution' to the complaining rogues. Suggest something useful, don't try to take something away from someone else. Be okay with others going on LB, nobody is stopping you from creating a rogue. I am a warrior and nobody wants a warrior for timed runs. Do you see me complaining?

[JaytB]

Please no cooldown on pots. I played O&C in the past and that had cooldown on pots, totally hated it. Just my opinion

[Alfai]

Dude this is a stupid suggestion. How the hell do you expect to survive in elites without spamming potions?? Why do you even have a problem with rogues being OP? You are a mage, your class gonna be OP coz of arcane staff. How about removing all stuns from Mage class? As a 'solution' to the complaining rogues. Suggest something useful, don't try to take something away from someone else. Be okay with others going on LB, nobody is stopping you from creating a rogue. I am a warrior and nobody wants a warrior for timed runs. Do you see me complaining?

Nothing is never enough...

I envy those class who need not to spam pots in pve.now thats OP.

[Venom]

Nothing is never enough...

I envy those class who need not to spam pots in pve.now thats OP.

Trust me, even i need to spam pots against some bosses and mob pulls.. With 6k hp and 1600 armor.. And here someone suggests cool down on pots.. Has he thought of how many deaths he gonna get if STS changes this? Don't even think of how many complain threads to change it back. Well I am glad STS devs are much smarter than that

[Alfai]

I trust u.and i trust most of us try really hard in our own ways to spam that pots.you will laugh if you see how i try to adjust pots spamming on tab.hence why i opted for smartphones but at the COST of battery.nothing is perfect really.

If i may suggest hold on to tht arcane wep released..upgrade hooks first *cough

*activating voicemail for hate notes

[Taejo]

I like my rogues "OP". They make elite runs much quicker and more enjoyable. For all I care, they can keep their banners with the little hourglass on it - consider it a token of thanks from all the warriors out there who want to run elite maps efficiently. Cool downs on pots might fix the timed runs LB, but it will also create a dozen more complaint-related issues for us to deal with.

[Venom]

I trust u.and i trust most of us try really hard in our own ways to spam that pots.you will laugh if you see how i try to adjust pots spamming on tab.hence why i opted for smartphones but at the COST of battery.nothing is perfect really.

If i may suggest hold on to tht arcane wep released..upgrade hooks first *cough

*activating voicemail for hate notes

Hooks actually need to be buffed!!!!! They feel so underpowered..

[Alfai]

Tbh i feel sorry for tanks tho they way i see it nt as meatshield but more of defender and hold the key to the team survival.
Ive been in game where for the first time i saw a tank being the man of match with most kills.tho hes using maul in pvp.i dont see that as op tho i was farmed by the same tank.i figured out other ways to get my revenge *in positive and healthy manner

But i have nothing to complain. *aiming bow for a pointblank shot

But i might with this mage arcane stuff..since the update mage are more eager to kill.forget bout their class role and crap.it doesnt matter since killing matters and satisfactory to some.so imagine that with a new arcane weapon.what would be the effect?

If i survive in a match or runs first id thank the tank for keeping me alive and smurf to supply me with fuel to make the kills.

*whispering "...man thats op.you are creating a super smurf there

[juaki]

More easy this:

The time leader board only granted for teams formed by the three classes. No solo, minimum three players. The last slot at your choice.

I always ask for this! If not the game will be an a sorcerer and roge game.

Or add to the time the pots of heal and mana wasted in the run. The best run the faster and the less pots wasting.

[Soundlesskill]

I feel sad that you apparently can't open your eyes and see mages on timed lb.

Again, why don't you just make a rouge yourself?

Pot CD. Are you kidding me? You'd die a lot more too, seeing as mages heal charged attract arrgo. Aka you drop dead.

Okay, so basically you're saying you don't want elite to go fast, but by any means make it go slow as fk.

@Defamed - Hooks doenst need a buff, they are lvl26 for a reason.

[Alfai]

I feel sad that you apparently can't open your eyes and see mages on timed lb.

Again, why don't you just make a rouge yourself?

Pot CD. Are you kidding me? You'd die a lot more too, seeing as mages heal charged attract arrgo. Aka you drop dead.

Okay, so basically you're saying you don't want elite to go fast, but by any means make it go slow as fk.

@Defamed - Hooks doenst need a buff, they are lvl26 for a reason.

I think defamed was being sarcastic hehe...
But why not buff it lol!

[Soundlesskill]

I think defamed was being sarcastic hehe...
But why not buff it lol!

Meh

[Venom]

Yes, it was pun intended. I know they are 26 and would be too OP if buffed. Just hope future expansions all 3 classes get new arcane weapons together.

[Soundlesskill]

Yes, it was pun intended. I know they are 26 and would be too OP if buffed. Just hope future expansions all 3 classes get new arcane weapons together.

Oh sorry. I kist scrolled down and saw your post. Haven't really followed the thread

[Bless]

Energi. do you forget that a mage has 4k+ mana and a warrior has 4k+ hp?

what does a rogue have. 3k hp? 1k mana? this means rogues need to spam BOTH potions as opposed to a warrior only needing to spam mana and some hp potions (for wars they dont need to spam HP potions, just one every 5 secs is enough) and a mage has to only spam hp potions (mana dont need to SPAM)

I disagree with 5sec cooldown, no other MMO has this and its easy to see why not.