Regarding new update

[Uziscata]

Alright I will try again.
So the new update states that mages will now be able to crit more and wars can do more damage.
Wars already do enough dmg, they can not have everything in pvp, high health shield when healed, and with maul and sameul its pretty much impossible to now beat. Most wars with maul already have more dmg than rogues and same goes for mages. Even before the new update good mages had more dmg than rogues.
So in this case what are rogues good for?

We are kind of becoming useless in the pvp world.
All we are good for is pve.
What was the point of the old update where dmg was decreased if its been increased for both classes accept rogues.
Rogues dmg and crit is much less. I feel like I barely ever crit these days, even with ribbit I sometimes dont even crit.

Maybe you guys can have a look into why this is the case, and my skills are pretty much maxed crit.
And regarding hooks buff, is even worse now because quills daggers are still better.

Just consider the fact that you have now increased dmg for warriors, fair enough sometimes for warriors that dont have maul or sameul pet, but try fighting a warrior with maul and sameul pet or even a 5vs5 where the other 5 all have maul and sameul. Its pretty much impossible to win.

Please think about this. Thank you

[Kaytar]

Ib4l xD

[Zeus]

Let me reiterate...

How does one tell if classes are balanced? 1v1, correct? Prior to this update, any class had the chance to beat any class! Now? The case is still true, but the advantages heavily favor warriors and mages.

Secondly, what were rogues good at? Kill stealing, right? Even after this update, y'all that were complaining will STILL see that rogues are scoring the highest on the kill board. Now, why is that? They are the single target damage dealers, meaning the likelihood of then taking the kill is great, although now mages are most likely doing the most damage with their DoT skills now.

Thirdly, the mana issue was already our crutch! It prevented us from spamming skills and taking out the entire team! To make these upgrades to other classes was totally not cool, as it was already difficult to kill classes considering even a singular fight had a good chance to consume at least 60-80% of our mana without a way to regen it. This is something no other class has to deal with.

Fourthly, we have the LEAST defense out of all the four classes, due to a sorcerer's shield and other defensive/offensive spells like stuns and DoTs. The trade off is high & rapid damage at the expense of rapidly depleting mana. Now? What are we left with? Sorcerers who are capable of doing as much, if not more damage & warriors that suck our mana bar dry while still having full health.

At the end of the day though, people who play other classes are still going to think rogues are OP because we kill steal. We are the assassin class, it's what we do. However, try fighting a rogue by itself. What happens? The rogue is usually a dead rogue.

[Limsi]

It's just disappointing how some people take the leaderboard as the basis of how O.P a certain class is. I'm pretty sure that the moment I chose rogue as my toon, I was up for some low survivability yet the capability of dealing the most damage on a single target. I know we all could agree upon that. Mages would follow in dealing X number of damage and warriors would fall in the last place. Face the fact : Rogues are meant for killing in one versus one situations while having the tradeoff of having low hp and mana.

However, the way I see things now is a result of pure sourgraping and selfish desires that resulted to an unfavorable imbalance and unfairness to a rogue's part. Am I saying that only rogues have the license to grab all of the team's kills? Heck no, I've seen non mythic mages who managed to kill a bunch after every match (Mages like Swexcist) and he was able to do this consistently. Let me be clear on that, everyone is entitled to kill yet there are those classes which are made for certain situations. Before, mages who use crit pets managed to dish out 1.5-1.8k dmg on a single lightng shot, the ability to stun and put down a whole team using curse. Now, to add more critical damage on DoT effects per tick went a little bit overboard. Yes I have tested it already in 5 matches of pvp right after the update.

I'm unsure how dev's would respond to this issue but doing something with the mana pool would at least help rogues get back on their feet. No there's no such thing as one hit K.Os to mages unless he is heavily undergeared or low leveled. I'm after the balance, not the one who seeks for unnecessary advantage over a certain class.

[Uziscata]

It's just disappointing how some people take the leaderboard as the basis of how O.P a certain class is. I'm pretty sure that the moment I chose rogue as my toon, I was up for some low survivability yet the capability of dealing the most damage on a single target. I know we all could agree upon that. Mages would follow in dealing X number of damage and warriors would fall in the last place. Face the fact : Rogues are meant for killing in one versus one situations while having the tradeoff of having low hp and mana.

However, the way I see things now is a result of pure sourgraping and selfish desires that resulted to an unfavorable imbalance and unfairness to a rogue's part. Am I saying that only rogues have the license to grab all of the team's kills? Heck no, I've seen non mythic mages who managed to kill a bunch after every match (Mages like Swexcist) and he was able to do this consistently. Let me be clear on that, everyone is entitled to kill yet there are those classes which are made for certain situations. Before, mages who use crit pets managed to dish out 1.5-1.8k dmg on a single lightng shot, the ability to stun and put down a whole team using curse. Now, to add more critical damage on DoT effects per tick went a little bit overboard. Yes I have tested it already in 5 matches of pvp right after the update.

I'm unsure how dev's would respond to this issue but doing something with the mana pool would at least help rogues get back on their feet. No there's no such thing as one hit K.Os to mages unless he is heavily undergeared or low leveled. I'm after the balance, not the one who seeks for unnecessary advantage over a certain class.

Couldnt agree more lim

[katish]

How many mages killed u in pvp one x one since the update?

And how many warriors?

Oh yeah and how many of them did your kill? I'm willing to bet all of you did a lot more killing than dieing.

Sorry but you all seem to be talking theoretical before you actually experience these changes...

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[Limsi]

I've stated that I played 5 pvp matches after the update.

[Frohnatur]

I still see rogues getting the most kills, but this time I'm okay with it. Why? Because now mages and warriors can get kills too. Not that much, true. But I never wanted to be the class with most kills. At least now I am a challenge to some rogues and I am not undergeared. I'm still supporting, but at least I can reach my pvp-kill-achievements now someday before x-mas i hope.

It was to be expected that rogues will argue now, since it was better for them before. Noone likes it to be nerfed. We had the same situation when Warrior-class was nerfed down in season 3 (or 2?).

You see, the point is: if rogues are the class designed to dominate in pvp (as you argue) what did the mages get out of pvp? The warriors are good flag carriers, but mages? They dont get any achievements for supporting in pvp. And please dont bring up the higher killing in pve. There is one high achievment for that and most reached it before they got to level 16.

Balance is, when all classes have similar chances to get to the very hard achievments. Its still not this way, but I think I will not argue anymore, because I think, right now this is fair enough, and mages are worth something again.

[Uziscata]

I still see rogues getting the most kills, but this time I'm okay with it. Why? Because now mages and warriors can get kills too. Not that much, true. But I never wanted to be the class with most kills. At least now I am a challenge to some rogues and I am not undergeared. I'm still supporting, but at least I can reach my pvp-kill-achievements now someday before x-mas i hope.

It was to be expected that rogues will argue now, since it was better for them before. Noone likes it to be nerfed. We had the same situation when Warrior-class was nerfed down in season 3 (or 2?).

You see, the point is: if rogues are the class designed to dominate in pvp (as you argue) what did the mages get out of pvp? The warriors are good flag carriers, but mages? They dont get any achievements for supporting in pvp. And please dont bring up the higher killing in pve. There is one high achievment for that and most reached it before they got to level 16.

Balance is, when all classes have similar chances to get to the very hard achievments. Its still not this way, but I think I will not argue anymore, because I think, right now this is fair enough, and mages are worth something again.

your argument is totally irrelevant to what im saying.

[Zeus]

How many mages killed u in pvp one x one since the update?

And how many warriors?

Oh yeah and how many of them did your kill? I'm willing to bet all of you did a lot more killing than dieing.

Sorry but you all seem to be talking theoretical before you actually experience these changes...

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Again, again, again...I will repeat this. Rogues EXCEL at kill stealing. What do sorcerers not get about this fact?! They are DESIGNED to deliver the killing blow. However, that does not mean that they're OP. You want to know why? Fight a rogue in PvP 1v1, they aren't as tough as you and others make them out to be provided that the sorcerer is skilled.

@Fro

Before this change, sorcerers could kill many before. I really don't see you much in PvP & honestly, from what I've seen, the pro sorcerers really do not complain. Why? Things were balanced. Now? They're definitely out balanced.


Take a look at last cap, Energizeric wasn't shy to admit he could kill many rogues without an issue. Infact, the only two he mentioned giving him issues were iPredator and Love, both of whom were considered the two best rogues. Also, as Energizeric has stated, 2v1 for a sorcerer is not much of an issue either provided that one knows what one is doing.

To this, I'll say, classes were balanced. People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.

[Limsi]

Ran out of thanks but yes, I believe Energizeric got no trouble raking up kills against rogues and other classes. Heck I even remembered the first time he incorporated shield to his build, he got more powerful and pretty much can par with good rogues. Another player is Pyromaginum, this guy only has a mythic gun but does not have any problem with killing anyone. This nullifies any argument that rogues alone are the ones who can excel at killing. You never hear these guys complain when it comes to PvP.

Stun fireball plus slag - I won't complain, after all these are vital to a sorc's build. Stuns are what keep them running and killing and it's never a problem for me, it's just the insane ability to deal more crits which bothers me. A shielded sorc who can stun and deal more crits with their DoT skills not to mention the damage from lightning - It's something else.

[Taejo]

I really don't want to involve myself with this thread, because I really don't have as much experience PvPing with a rogue as the contributors posting here. However, I will try to provide my outsider perspective on the issues. First, I'd like to ask how much PvP everyone here has actually done to formulate their arguments and raise such a contention against the recent changes? We are currently less than 12 hours into the update and already the complaint threads are in full bloom. Analogically speaking, it's like going to a car dealership, declining to take a test drive of the newest model and then writing a negative feedback letter to the manufacturer without ever operating the vehicle. This all seems like speculation based on past PvP mechanics while neglecting to observe first hand (for more than just a few hours) the new modifications to PvP.

Tonight, I briefly PvP'd on my warrior to experience the new changes. Although I was facing the usual suspects in CTF, similar to Season 4 I was able to withstand a 3 versus 1 barrage of Maul/Samael warriors for a good amount of time (of course eventually losing the battle), kill and be killed by rogues and sorcerers, and successfully support my group in the bigger battles - all with a hybrid PvE/PvP spec. In the hour and a half period in which I played numerous CTF games against different opponents, I accrued maybe 10 kills - which is about five times less than what I was capable of last season. Of course, there's many factors relating to this number, and it would be wrong for me to conclude that PvP is 'all messed up now' based on this single session. Yet, I can't honestly say that my damage output was as vanquishing as many of you are claiming it to be. I don't own a maul, and I didn't use one in Season 4 either; but I managed to performed exceptionally well without one and accomplished some of my PvP achievements in roughly a months time. However, I will say that the sorcerer friend who was running with me (full mythic + arcane staff) mentioned that some warriors were hitting her pretty hard - just like in Season 4.

One of the resurfacing issues that I see in these threads is that of the rogue's mana supply. This particular issue I will fully support - even before the days start to pass with this new era of PvP. It seems to me that the recent overall damage reduction within the PvP maps is good enough reason for the Devs to find a way to give rogues more mana or a way to replenish mana in combat.

Anyway, that is my first account of PvP since today's update. The point I'm trying to make here is that PvP testing (in most games) is a tumultuous task which takes weeks of diligent testing by programmers to make any sort of conclusions on class strengths and weaknesses. I can't speak for STG or make any claims that they did such extensive testing, but I also have my doubts that they just quickly whipped up some changes and tossed them to us as guinea pigs. With that being said, none of us can befittingly write an accurate assessment of the current changes to PvP as of yet. It is going to take weeks before we have a consensus opinion about what needs fixing and why. I hate to say it, but right now this thread - which I'm assuming had the intentions to provide constructive feedback - is so far just a group of rogues reacting poorly to the changes made to warriors and sorcerers. Apollo and Limsy - you're both veteran players of AL and your input on these forums is always greatly respected. With that being said, you both know that our daily encounters in PvP are extremely circumstantial, and not one battle exactly like the next. There are too many variables at hand which throw the typical implications of each CTF/TDM match off course. Give this some time... play the game and make observations... then come back and discuss it. If your position remains the same throughout the course of time, so be it. But at least you did your homework.

[katish]

Again, again, again...I will repeat this. Rogues EXCEL at kill stealing. What do sorcerers not get about this fact?! They are DESIGNED to deliver the killing blow. However, that does not mean that they're OP. You want to know why? Fight a rogue in PvP 1v1, they aren't as tough as you and others make them out to be provided that the sorcerer is skilled.

I meant 1v1..how many warriors/rogues killed you and how many have you killed since the update? I'm willing to bet whoever could kill you before still can and those who couldn't still can't. I doubt you (and the others rogues on this thread so far) have experienced such a dramatic change in pvp dynamics far as your posts make believe.

@Fro

Before this change, sorcerers could kill many before. I really don't see you much in PvP & honestly, from what I've seen, the pro sorcerers really do not complain. Why? Things were balanced. Now? They're definitely out balanced.


Take a look at last cap, Energizeric wasn't shy to admit he could kill many rogues without an issue. Infact, the only two he mentioned giving him issues were iPredator and Love, both of whom were considered the two best rogues. Also, as Energizeric has stated, 2v1 for a sorcerer is not much of an issue either provided that one knows what one is doing.

To this, I'll say, classes were balanced. People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.

This game is not only played by pros. As fro keeps mentioning balanced means an equal chance.. Mages never had a chance. The fact that 1 mage (or maybe 3-5) succeeds vs the less than perfectly skilled rogues is hardly a valid argument here.

I'll quote you back to you Cuz honestly you're not doing this yourself... People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.


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[katish]

Mana is only a problem for rogues when fighting warriors. Get a mana pet! When in clashes mages are there to replenish your supply.. If no mage in your team ,invite one!

I compare you're mana situation with mage shield situation. It's a weakness, yes, but one that can be circumvented, and easier than no shield. Rogues without mana are sitting ducks, but there are mana packs and mana pets. Mages without shield are sitting ducks too.. Abs we don't get shields packs or pets. We live it with.. Or rather, die of it

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[Limsi]

I really don't want to involve myself with this thread, because I really don't have as much experience PvPing with a rogue as the contributors posting here. However, I will try to provide my outsider perspective on the issues. First, I'd like to ask how much PvP everyone here has actually done to formulate their arguments and raise such a contention against the recent changes? We are currently less than 12 hours into the update and already the complaint threads are in full bloom. Analogically speaking, it's like going to a car dealership, declining to take a test drive of the newest model and then writing a negative feedback letter to the manufacturer without ever operating the vehicle. This all seems like speculation based on past PvP mechanics while neglecting to observe first hand (for more than just a few hours) the new modifications to PvP.

Tonight, I briefly PvP'd on my warrior to experience the new changes. Although I was facing the usual suspects in CTF, similar to Season 4 I was able to withstand a 3 versus 1 barrage of Maul/Samael warriors for a good amount of time (of course eventually losing the battle), kill and be killed by rogues and sorcerers, and successfully support my group in the bigger battles - all with a hybrid PvE/PvP spec. In the hour and a half period in which I played numerous CTF games against different opponents, I accrued maybe 10 kills - which is about five times less than what I was capable of last season. Of course, there's many factors relating to this number, and it would be wrong for me to conclude that PvP is 'all messed up now' based on this single session. Yet, I can't honestly say that my damage output was as vanquishing as many of you are claiming it to be. I don't own a maul, and I didn't use one in Season 4 either; but I managed to performed exceptionally well without one and accomplished some of my PvP achievements in roughly a months time. However, I will say that the sorcerer friend who was running with me (full mythic + arcane staff) mentioned that some warriors were hitting her pretty hard - just like in Season 4.

One of the resurfacing issues that I see in these threads is that of the rogue's mana supply. This particular issue I will fully support - even before the days start to pass with this new era of PvP. It seems to me that the recent overall damage reduction within the PvP maps is good enough reason for the Devs to find a way to give rogues more mana or a way to replenish mana in combat.

Anyway, that is my first account of PvP since today's update. The point I'm trying to make here is that PvP testing (in most games) is a tumultuous task which takes weeks of diligent testing by programmers to make any sort of conclusions on class strengths and weaknesses. I can't speak for STG or make any claims that they did such extensive testing, but I also have my doubts that they just quickly whipped up some changes and tossed them to us as guinea pigs. With that being said, none of us can befittingly write an accurate assessment of the current changes to PvP as of yet. It is going to take weeks before we have a consensus opinion about what needs fixing and why. I hate to say it, but right now this thread - which I'm assuming had the intentions to provide constructive feedback - is so far just a group of rogues reacting poorly to the changes made to warriors and sorcerers. Apollo and Limsy - you're both veteran players of AL and your input on these forums is always greatly respected. With that being said, you both know that our daily encounters in PvP are extremely circumstantial, and not one battle exactly like the next. There are too many variables at hand which throw the typical implications of each CTF/TDM match off course. Give this some time... play the game and make observations... then come back and discuss it. If your position remains the same throughout the course of time, so be it. But at least you did your homework.

Spot on. I'll admit that 5 matches alone won't be a sufficient conclusion to the current issue. With the five matches I have played, I fought with the same group of players and you are right this encounter is circumstantial - too much variables to consider and a bunch of factors affecting the fight's outcome. I'll go through several fights over the week and provide feedbacks with my observation.

One thing I believe that needs buffing would be the rogue's mana pool. It's either they lower the mana consumption per skill or add mana heal to medpacks. I'm pretty sure the latter would be favourable to mages and warriors as this would take more effort for a rogue to do. Instant gratification is something we don't wanna witness here especially in PvP, and that I'm sure most rogues will accept as a challenge.

Thanks for your input.

[Zeus]

I meant 1v1..how many warriors/rogues killed you and how many have you killed since the update? I'm willing to bet whoever could kill you before still can and those who couldn't still can't. I doubt you (and the others rogues on this thread so far) have experienced such a dramatic change in pvp dynamics far as your posts make believe.


This game is not only played by pros. As fro keeps mentioning balanced means an equal chance.. Mages never had a chance. The fact that 1 mage (or maybe 3-5) succeeds vs the less than perfectly skilled rogues is hardly a valid argument here.

I'll quote you back to you Cuz honestly you're not doing this yourself... People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.


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This game is not only played by pros, correct. However, pros is what determines the class balance. Just like how an average rogue that doesn't know a PvP spec will easily die, the same goes for sorcerers and warriors. In this game, there's too many of them. So, how does one determine class balance? Set up an ideal situation, which is usually set up by pros.

I've PvP'd many matches since the update & fighting them now, if I go head to head with an undergeared sorcerer, even their DoT has a very good chance at killing me provided if I don't stun them early and kill them. However, those opportunities are rare when taking into account sorcerer's invulnerability shield - especially when combined with warrior's invulnerability shield (It really should be fixed how a team of warriors can literally conquer any team of pros).

@Katish
Mana is a rogue problem, yes. However, it's even more of a problem when these days it's difficult to even kill one sorcerer that knows what he or she is doing. Before this update, fighting sorcerers that knew what he/she was doing WAS difficult! Heck, I would never be able to tell the outcome of the fight because it was always so intense. Things like, can I make it to my packs on time? Will I have enough mana to deliver the killing blow? Will curse KO me? Those were already huge factors! Now, since DoT has the chance to crit, facing up with a sorcerer - provided the shield is up - the sorcerer is most likely to win. That isn't balanced. Before, however, it was balanced because it was a challenge for both!

What are the weaknesses of a rogue? No shield, no mana, mid health. Also, dodge is rarely a noticeable factor. Heck, dodge was proven to not be a percentage. So, when my dodge is 40, that doesn't mean I'll dodge 40% of oncoming attacks. Honestly, I rarely see dodge coming into account.

Then there's two issues: either make dodge a percentage so it's actually a useful stat that'll help increase survivability or find some way to make sure mana can be replenished on a rogue. As of right now, the way to replenish mana is pure bug abuse (which is not acceptable!)

[Zeus]

Also, to those that think I'm trying to boost up rogues for my own benefit - that is not the case.

I played the underpowered class for the longest time in PL. In those days, it was usually the bear that was widely thought to be underpowered. Only as of late, has it grown popular. However, in the days I played, many bears would complain about themselves being underpowered. Was that really the case though? No! I know this because I was playing a bear in those days and was one of the few who refused to admit a bear was underpowered.

Just because a class is more difficult to learn does not mean it's underpowered. In my mind, the difficulty of a class & it's success in PvP is more fruitful when it comes to the actual experience. The only reason why I don't play sorcerer in AL as well is that it is too expensive for me to gear out two characters in full mythic and arcane. Maybe down the line I will, but as of right now, I cannot afford to.

However, when playing against the pros of this class, I can tell that this class is NOT underpowered, but just required more skill and control to learn. Is it easy to play a rogue? Yes. However, that weaknesses come out very easily when paired up or against somebody who knows what he/she is doing.

Trust me, I'm looking for class balance almost as much as y'all - which is why you'll see me posting things like in TheMiracleBird's thread regarding rogues mana problem that don't benefit my class at all. However, prior to this update, things were balanced! Now however? That isn't the case.

[Frohnatur]

I do not complain. I said ithink that now there is balance and im happy.

btw. Balance is not determined by the pros. It is determined by the average. I play pvp 2 hours a day. Played it yesterday (day of update) more than that. Had a good experience. Still died a lot more than i killed, but now its not frustrating anymore.

Peace

[moonway03]

Smh novel replies

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[Zeus]

I do not complain. I said ithink that now there is balance and im happy.

btw. Balance is not determined by the pros. It is determined by the average. I play pvp 2 hours a day. Played it yesterday (day of update) more than that. Had a good experience. Still died a lot more than i killed, but now its not frustrating anymore.

Peace

Logically, it cannot be determined by the average. Why? How can one measure the skill level of one average player versus another average player? Thus, the only way to determine balance is to pit two players of equal skill level (pros) & have them duke it out.

THEN, from that point on, players WORK towards that skill level. Since when did PvP become about "lets buff stats so y'all can kill"? That's exactly what happened here.

Fro, the truth is that I see many sorcerers kill much more than they die so you're obviously doing something wrong.