Post Nerf Guide/Feedback For Avian 50-56 PvP
Post Nerf Guide/Feedback For Avian 50-56 PvP
I Quick Dictionary
II Summary
III Builds
IV Strategies
V Balance
VI Conclusion
Quick Dictionary
Build: The way your character is set up. This includes skill points, attributes, weapons, etc.
Glass cannon: A character who has set up their toon to do all the damage of a cannon, and maintain all the survivability of glass. Hence the term "Glass cannon."
Tank: A character set up to deal minimum damage and maintain maximum survivability. Another term people use is "Bunker."
(Any more definitions needed? Post in comments)
Summary
Hello Spacetime PvPers! Today I've decided to give my feedback on 50-56 PvP and specifically from the perspective of a 51 Avian. Before I get into that, let me just give a brief introduction for those of you who don't know me.
First of all, I joined the game Nov 12th, 2010. I actually ended up going inactive during the month January 2011 but I returned shortly after and have been playing actively ever since (aside from a recent month break. I intended to quit but the recent nerf drew me back in with great hopes.) Anyways, I have spent the majority of my time at level 50-56 PvP with various classes. I've amassed several thousands of kills on many secret alts as well as characters that have been deleted for various reasons never to return. In total I can brag probably over 40k kills at levels 50-56. I say this not to pat myself on the back, but rather to inform my audience that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to 50-56 PvP. This doesn't make me absolutely right in everything I say, but I do believe it entitles me to have my opinion judged and listened to carefully. Please join me as I examine my findings for my most recent (and favorite) character at level 51 PvP.
To start off, I will say that the nerfs have changed everything quite a lot! I'm sure you all are aware of this. Across the board critical and damage have been nerfed to a big degree as well as dodge. Now, the first thought that came into my head was this: Either tank or glass cannon builds are about to become very mainstream.
Let me explain my thinking. Every time damage is nerfed across the board, glass canon's lose their one strength which is of course damage. This means that tanks can generally survive the glass cannons nuke and then finish off their squishy opponent. So why would glass cannons become mainstream? This leads to my next thought.
Often, when damage is nerfed across the board, tanks literally lose the only bit of damage that they have. When this happens, glass cannons are able to survive the tank's measly damage and finish him off. The fact that dodge got nerfed enforces this theory.
So what actually happened? Well, obviously I can't speak for all levels of PvP, but for 51 I can pretty safely say that neither one happened! That is to say that neither tanks, nor glass cannons have become too over powered. Why? Because I failed to realize that hit% is now an issue. Since I've mostly played as an avian I don't ever worry about hit%. Avians used to have a 30% hit buff which pretty much guaranteed a hit as long as I could maintain a passive 100% hit. This is because the other classes don't have more than 30% hit debuff. (Removed statement. Thanks, Gregorak) Anyways, Avians no longer have this buff! They can only buff 20% hit. This may not seem much like an observation but it will become important in a few minutes so keep this in mind.
There is one other important thing to mention before moving on to the good stuff. This important thing is regen! It is my current opinion that regen is very important for two major reasons. The first reason is that we have just come out of an age which encouraged rushing (free for all, whatever you wanna call it. We can debate this later. Regardless...) This means that you constantly are going to need to be on your toes. When your regen is low, you can't always be ready for the next fight. The other important thing to note is that fights are going to last longer! Certainly dodge was debuffed, but so was damage. Overall I believe offense suffered more than defense. This means that it will take more time to deal the damage necessary to kill your opponent. In turn, this means that fights will last longer and therefore regen is more important. Ok. On to the good stuff!
So now the question us 51 Avians face is what build do we go for? Do we use glass cannon? Do we use tank? Do we make a hybrid? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each? We'll start by examining the glass cannon. (Bare in mind that all following pictures are without any extra vanity or ring stats.)
Builds
Everyone knows that the most glass cannon-ish build possible is to go pure raid roach for damage, crit, and hit %. Also go 100% dexterity for the extra stats from that. Here's a picture of the stats-
Now the big question. Is this build viable? Can I succeed with this pure glass cannon? I would submit to you that the big answer is no! Take a look at the dodge, health pool, regen, and armor. You're going to be very squishy and simply will not have time to inflict the damage you need to to kill your enemy. Certainly, in a free for all with a tank on your team, you might could do pretty well, but we are just generally speaking here. You will probably die a quick and painless death. On to tanks...
Now what about the most tanky tank? Well to my knowledge the most tanky tank would be a pure strength avian with royal sewer helm and armor and fury shield and sword. This way you'll have good armor, lots of health from strength, and lots of dodge as well. Here are the stats-
Is this build viable? Freaking no! Obviously long ago people figured out that pure strength bird is no bueno. Just in case you are new to the game or whatever, let me briefly explain. Certainly, you are pretty tanky but your hit% and damage is enough reason to scrap the build. Your buffed hit% is 86%. Imagine that with a 30% debuff. Now you have 56% hit and can't even damage a fly even if you could hit anything. Also, you can still be killed by anyone with decent damage. You didn't gain THAT much tanking power by going pure strength. Because of this analysis I will now only use tank builds with minimum stats into strength. (108) Keep this principle in mind.
So what about a tanky tank with the dex needed for good hit%? Here are the stats (Same gear with max dex added)-
Is this build viable? Very much so! It's no over powered build, but it can be done. Your weakness is mostly found in your low damage and hit%. However, if played smartly you can do pretty well. Especially against those dang glass cannons.
Now you are probably wondering, "What about the glass cannon only with strength stats?" I'm glad you asked! Here are the stats of a raid roach character with strength-
Is this build viable? I would have to still say no. You have gained some survivability but not much. You will still die a quick and painless death.
So now you are probably wondering if glass canons can really be done at all? I would say that if you define a glass cannon as only a damaging build, then no. However if you consider glass cannons as just predominantly damage, then yes! Consider the following raid helm, raid bow, and royal sewer armor. Here are the stats-
Is this build viable? I use it all the time. It is a very good balance between damage and armor with damage as the predominant idea for the build. The biggest problem I have with this build is the mana regen. 0 mana regen can be a bigger problem than people seem to realize.
One way to fix the above problem is with a sewer bow. In the following picture I use sewer bow for regen, hit%, and damage, and the rest is as tanky as I can get with royal sewer helm and armor-
Is this build viable? Certainly! This is what you will mostly find me wearing in pvp. It is my favorite build when it comes to free for all.
Another thing every 51 should consider is level 50 gear! I tried a pure dex death bird, but it just seemed like the worst of both worlds. In other words, too squishy and not enough damage. However, with strength and dex stats, it isn't half bad-
Is this build viable? Yes, it is. However, I don't generally use it. I prefer mixes of other gear.
Ok so we have examined many builds thus far. I don't wish to examine any more because I'm not trying to just give you a list of builds. My hope is that you Spacetime players will begin thinking for yourselves! One group of gear I didn't even mention is drainers. That will give you much more to work with. Always remember when picking out stats to consider hit% first and foremost. (If you can't hit, you can't kill.) Next consider health pool, armor, dodge, and regen. You want to survive long enough to kill your opponent. Lastly, consider damage and critical. You may survive a long time but you are wasting your time if you still lose the fight in the long run.
Strategies
Ok so first thing is first. You need to know where to put your skill points. Here is where mine are-
Why this set up? Well you don't want mana or hp regen. Those are a total waste in my opinion. You don't want more than 1 in shattering scream. It's only purpose is the cruel blast combo for double damage. (Shattering scream followed by blast shot.) I've been ridiculed for saying this before but from my years of playing I've noticed that while casting shattering scream (and for a brief second or two afterwards) you are extra vulnerable to attacks. Therefore, shattering isn't to be spammed as an armor debuff. Also, as a bow bird you want to stay fairly far from your opponent and shattering scream requires closer combat. Why 1 in avian scream? Some people have put 4 so that they can break free of roots but I don't see the point. To me it's a waste. The reason I put 1 in avian is because there are times when people get on top of you. In this situation, avian scream is great to push them back. Also, when you combo avian scream with repulse shot, you have a chance to push the enemy back insanely far. This can be very helpful in certain situations.
Edit Upon further consideration and experimentation, I believe I have found a more efficient use of the skills. Here is an alternative setup which I am currently using:
The basic reasoning is so that I can free myself from roots using avian scream. Originally, I didn't think this was helpful, but after using it for awhile I believe it is worth the loss in other skill points. Now, you may be questioning the particular skill points I removed so let me explain my reasoning.
I removed one from thorn root because the difference between 5 thorn root and 6 thorn root is very slim. The only thing you lose is an extra 2% dodge debuff. That shouldn't be a defining factor.
I removed a skill point from Evasion for a similar reason. The difference between 5 Evasion and 6 Evasion is only 2% dodge and 1 armor. Again, this is very slim and shouldn't be a determining factor.
I removed a skill point from break armor somewhat reluctantly because in my experience break armor is a very useful skill. However, we only lose a 6 armor debuff and a small amount of damage. In case you didn't know, the skill actually does deal damage, and isn't merely a debuff alone. However, I'm my experience this far the reduction in damage and armor is still minimal.
I removed a skill point from repulse shot because to my knowledge there is no extra knock back when going from 5 skill pints to 6. (If there is, it's very, very small. Small enough to not notice it.) You only lose 20 damage give or take.
All in all, you're giving up a little bit across the board for the power to free yourself from stuns and roots. If you feel it is worth giving up, do it. If not, I'd use my previous set up.
At request from Kenzory, I've decided to add the position of my skills on the skill grid. I strongly advise you to find the positioning which works best for you! However, if you are unsure what works best, this may be a good start.
Now it's time for basic strategies against opponents. I'll start with the three original classes since I'm most familiar with them. Before I go into that, however, I'll go over a few basic principles of a bird.
As a bow bird you need to do your best to stay at 10-12 meter range! A lot of the other classes don't have many skills that can reach that far. This will give you an insane advantage and allow you to kill without being scratched. The only time it is acceptable to move in close is when you know for sure that your opponent will go down. Even then, try to only move in just close enough to use your cruel blast combo. Sometimes things go wrong and even when you were so sure your opponent would die, he doesn't. Then you'll need to quickly retreat to 10-12 meter range again.
As a warbird try to always remain in close combat! The extra damage of your sword slashing the opponent does far more than you might expect. Also, it gives you the extra skill avian scream to use to inflict damage and stun your opponent as well a sustained extra dps of the constant cruel blast combo. Be careful with your roots. Try and use them sparingly in order to keep opponent stuck in place.
Avians: When fighting another avian there are many things to consider. Always try and learn the weapon looks in the game well enough to make a good guess as to your opponents build. If you know your opponent is wearing full raid, you'll know you've got to kill him quick enough so that he doesn't kill you. In other words, find their weakness! Sometimes you've got to fight your opponent a few times to analyze just what their weakness is. Usually, though, there a few given weaknesses. For instance, a warbird's strength will never be range and a bow bird's strength will never be close combat. Another thing to realize is that warbirds will almost always be lacking in hit% due to the recent nerf. Use blind shot first! Especially if you are a warbird yourself. Always remember to debuff their dodge appropriately with roots, repulse when you predict they are using their cruel blast combo, etc.
Mages: When fighting a Mage it is fairly simple now, thanks to the recent nerf. Just make sure their shield is off at all times! For warbirds, this is even more crucial. Most mages have great mana regen and there is almost no point to dwindling down their mana while they are in mana shield. Get it off, and get it off fast. Another thing to watch out for is their ice. If they root you and then use firestorm, they'll get a combo and it hurts bad. Once you see them cast ice, use repulse and there's a greater chance that their ice will miss or be dodged. If they are a dex Mage, they'll try and nuke you. Just repulse them or finish them before they have a chance to react. I prefer the latter. If they're strength, just keep their hit debuffed. This principle actually works with most classes.
Bears: Bears are actually much more similar to birds than people realize. Mostly because they can use dex and strength gear interchangeably just as birds can. A general principle for fighting a bear is to use blind to keep their hit% low. If they are extremely dodgy, or glass canony, warbird is a great option for killing them. They'll either lose their dodge and then go down, or simply go down. Try not to get too close to them until they are ready to go down.
Edit: One problem commonly posed from bears are those dang bow bears. Typically they will beckon you in and then hit stomp-slash and you're dead. There's a variety of ways to counter this but I'll only mention a few. The first is using thorn root followed by repulse shot which will debuff their dodge and give you a better chance to repulse them away. One thing to watch out for is trying to double root them. You always want to keep your distance and using both roots will set you up for failure. This is because they can break free of roots with their stomp. Oftentimes I'll root them and then wait for them to stomp before merely reapplying another root.
Foxes: These guys are tricky little boogers and I haven't seen too many of them around. For the most part they can tank for a few seconds and then they become very vulnerable. Generally I use warbird against them and tank their damage until they are vulnerable, then finish them off with a double root and cruel blast or something along those lines. For the most part, you should be beating these guys. If you aren't, try and examine their build closer and find their weakness.
Edit: Upon further experience against these guys I can confirm what I stated above. I'd also like to add stress that Warbird is always the best option! Dex birds will experience a very hard time with these guys due to their extreme damage and few seconds of massive tanking. As a warbird just alternate roots to keep them at a distance and apply minimal damage from various other skills. (All the while using blind shot to keep their hit% low) Once you judge their buff to be gone, unleash everything you've got. Generally they won't survive more than two rounds of comboing.
Rhinos: Rhinos are probably one of the easiest classes you will face but you've got to understand how to beat them or you'll get smoked. First of all, you want to go strength. Again, if you go dex you're going to have huge issues defeating these guys because they can tank through any damage you can give. So what do we do? Well, there are two basic ideas going on. The first one is to survive and the second one is to drain their mana. Basically, as with foxes, keep them at a distance with your crowd control skills (Both roots, avian scream, and repulse shot.) You will be tanky enough to survive any hits they can manage to get you with and their mana will slowly drain out. Once their mana is gone you can unleash everything and they won't be able to heal.
Every now and then you will fight a rhino who uses a bow and perhaps dex gear as well. These guys will hit you a lot harder, but the good news is that they won't be able to tank as well. For these guys I'd say try and nuke them over and over. We want their mana being used on heal, not on attacks.
The only problem I could ever foresee having with rhinos would be a full fury rhino. In that scenario I doubt they'd ever run out of mana. (Perhaps they would, I'm honestly not too sure.) Assuming they wouldn't, the battle would last forever, or you would get a lucky crit and nuke them. The thing about rhinos is that they either have damage, or survivability. If they have damage, you can out tank them and win. If they have survivability, the fight will be longer, but you will still out tank them and win. They simply can't deal enough damage to get you down. (If you find yourself losing to rhinos, you're doing something wrong, I hate to say.)
One particularly difficult tactic which I've begun to master as I become more familiar with the bird on rhino fight is that you can begin with a tanky set (preferably at least two pieces of fury for good mana regen, though I normally use three with royal sewer armor) and then, once you judge their armor buff to be gone, very quickly swap to your most damaging bow set and nuke them all at once. This strategy has proven to be very effective for me, but it's not exactly easy to execute. As I've always said, "Experience is the best teacher." Give it some time, and you'll get it down!
Balance
One important thing I'd like to discuss before ending this thread is the issue of balance. Obviously with the recent nerf, people are wondering if the classes are balanced. I'd say it's a little too early to tell at the moment. However, I'll go ahead and give my opinion as of now.
I think that the classes are very balanced! I'd say foxes and rhinos still get the short end of the stick, but they have gotten better. Mages no longer win by default verses a bird. (Freaking finally!) Bears no longer win by default verses a Mage, and birds no longer win by default verses a bear. It literally depends on the build and the individual player's skill. Certainly luck is still an element, as it always will be in a game with a dodge mechanic. However, I feel that a good Mage, bear, or bird can dominate the playing field if they take the time to learn everything about their class and others at 50-56. Now, I can't say the same for foxes or rhinos just yet. I will say, though, that I've noticed more and more talented rhinos and foxes showing up and whooping some other classes. So they are the underdog, but they aren't dead and gone.
The last thing I'll say is please refrain from all of the dumb forum posts. This nerf literally just happened! It's gonna take some time to decide if things really are balanced. Like I said above, that was my opinion as of now. My opinion may change. Please try and adopt my mindset. Be ready to change your mind. Analyze your character just as I have in this thread before raging on the forums about this nerf. You may find that your character isn't quite as bad as you feel it is.
Conclusion
My conclusion of this thread is that 51 Avians are very, very fun and good to play! I believe as of now that the level is balanced and there is more diversity than ever with the recent nerf! Watch out for 56's and have fun!
If my guide and feedback helped you, be sure and let me know in the comments! Also, hit me up in game if you'd like to know any more tips and stuff. My ign is MightyMicah.
Lastly I wanted to address one final issue which relates to Avians. I have noticed that many, many people (I'm guilty of this, myself in the past) will ridicule Avians when they are not full dex. Let me just say that that is outright, downright stupid. Often, a lot of weird classes get ridiculed for picking some unique stat. The reason STS made a nerf like this is partly, I'm sure, to increase build diversity! For crying out loud, play the way you want to play and the way that is most fun to you. Shoot, if you like having a pure strength avian that never dies, do it! Don't let me, or anyone else stop you. After taking a break and playing Guild Wars 2, I realize just how stupid the "pure dex" mentality was.
Play what you love. Love what you Play. But always remember...
Peace out, guys and have fun rocking your Avians!
-Micah
Originally Posted by CrimsonTider
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