In your opinion, what would it take to get PL back to it's glory days?

[Mothwing]

Crim, I think if you were to quit right now, the whole community would fall apart. I am so thankful that you are still here, posting amazing things over and over again. You are the biggest role model of the PL community, and I think a lot of us take that for granted. I cannot tell you how much I love reading your posts, and just saying to myself "Why couldn't I think of that?" It is such an honor to be able to play this game with you, and you have inspired me (starting now) to stop the impulsive actions that I tend to do. I think a lot of the trolling and immaturity is starting to get at some of the veterans of this community, and it's so cool to see that one of us can't be affected. Starting now, I am going to try to make a difference with the new players. If we can't change end game, then go to the root of the problem. Teach people that trolling isn't cool, and help them develop a love for the game like the rest of us.

Thank you for not giving up on this community Crim.

[Nihiliste]

Crim, I think if you were to quit right now, the whole community would fall apart. I am so thankful that you are still here, posting amazing things over and over again. You are the biggest role model of the PL community, and I think a lot of us take that for granted. I cannot tell you how much I love reading your posts, and just saying to myself "Why couldn't I think of that?" It is such an honor to be able to play this game with you, and you have inspired me (starting now) to stop the impulsive actions that I tend to do. I think a lot of the trolling and immaturity is starting to get at some of the veterans of this community, and it's so cool to see that one of us can't be affected. Starting now, I am going to try to make a difference with the new players. If we can't change end game, then go to the root of the problem. Teach people that trolling isn't cool, and help them develop a love for the game like the rest of us.

Thank you for not giving up on this community Crim.

It's all levels...not just end game.

[Mothwing]

It's all levels...not just end game.

Yeah I poorly worded that...I meant if we can teach the new players how much of an impact trolling, trash talking, etc. has, then we might be able to make a difference.

[Roberto077]

Lol, Robert, you're hilarious!

But seriously, you need to have a lot of programming experience in order to make a game like PL, or even just to run it.

[WhoIsThis]

I'm currently on a train typing this, so I'm hoping I'll have more time later this weekend (or next week). So far though, I have refrained from participating, as I am more interested in seeing what people have to say.

Based on this conversation, I can conclude the following:

1. The general consensus is that the quality of the community is in general decline. The loss of many of the oldies has left a hole that nothing can fill. Compounding the situation immensely, the new generation is simply not in a position to pick up the losses. The issue isn't so much that there are a lack of new good players as it is the percentage of new good to bad players. From the new generation, we do not see a new Ellyidol, a new Royce, or a new Physiologic emerging.

2. The lack of content has taken it's toll on the game, which is somewhat related to part 1. The existing content is simply not enough to attract quality new players (most will end up in AL), nor will it attract back many of the old greats.

3. PvP is in need of a total revamp. There are major class imbalances. The nerf is likely only the tip of the scale of the magnitude of issues. All stats should be built with PvP in mind first, seeing that PvE has become severely elixir dominated.

The state of PvP balance is also another issue - good PvPers are not going to be attracted unless we can expect a reasonable degree of balance.

4. This brings me to the next point, which is the extent that elixir domination has taken hold. Skill is no longer rewarded in PvE, and indeed, skilled players are hard to find. For example, scatter bears have become the status quo. We now have 2 types of runs - first where there is at least 1 elixir user in which case the run has very little challenge, the second, where there are no elixirs, which becomes an exercise in frustration.

5. The rich-poor gap has become a severe issue. We now have the gap between a very wealthy population and a population that cannot afford the top end gear with little hope of upward mobility.

6. Perhaps the biggest issue of all (next to the lack of new content) is the overall attitude of new players. It's a mentality thing I guess. When you are dealing with a playerbase unwilling to learn to play their class effectively, and unwilling to learn from existing veterans, you have an environment that is well, problematic.

Ok, seeing this thread, I think we should address the issues one at a time. The easiest by far to ask for is reforms to existing gear so that will be the object of my first major thread.

[Rare]

4 5 and 6 are all related to the same thing.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[WhoIsThis]

The thing is (as we have all heard many a time), they are a business. They've got bills to pay and kids to feed. Right now AL is raking in the big bucks which means they're going to put effort into that. They hate to see their other games go to waste, I'm sure of it, but there's not much they can do. Hopefully PL will catch on again and start making them money and then they can start giving it more attention as well.

Remember what I said. AL is not eternal.

You know it's interesting. In 2011, SL was the latest and greatest that STS had to offer. There were quite a few posts saying that SL would avoid the issues that had plagued PL and that it would be the shining beacon of mobile gaming. I disagreed at the time. Well, today is 2013, and well, I wish I did not have the last laugh on that one.

The real question is, what happens after AL. Either BD becomes the new AL, STS has yet another game in development (I bet they do at this very moment), or they redouble their efforts on existing IP.

I think it's the third one that has the best potential to earn a truly big fanbase if done correctly, but that's the big "if".

[XghostzX]

@Whoisthis - That pretty much sums it up.

This issue has been addressed in the past, but I've always had an issue in our PL economy and how everything is overpriced. Am I the only one that feels we are in need of a gold sink?

As Whoisthis mentioned, there is a large gap between the poor and the rich, and it will continue to stay like that. I consider my 5mill to be on the poorer side of PL (as all of my good buddies have like 80+mill).

[WhoIsThis]

Ok a few replies worth noting, more will come later.

I'm not sure how to word this ...

I do believe the immaturity level of players, scammers and overinflated egos hurt the community on a whole. I also think we need to look at ourself and how we have changed since our personal "glory days". I'm sure if you say you are still the person and act the exact same way you are lying to yourself or it's close to a miracle. I know I'm a different person now. More vocal not as innocent and intimated. I don't just sit there and let ppl talk out their asses like I once did.

I'm not saying ppl back then were angels or gods because back then ppl weren't 100% helpful or nice to strangers either, which I understand. The community wasn't perfect back then either. Like the GOA tired if answering the question what is that shield where did u get it? And please don't all you GOAs reply and say I always answer and I always help because I was one of those noobs, before reading the forums and educating myself, asked multiple ppl, multiple times and never got a response.

How many of you stay with in your own circle of friends or forumers? How many actually talk to new ppl and accept their requests? How many of you actually say hi back every time someone says hello to you?

We are part of the problem.

I agree that the existing players did help bring about the end. But not accepting friend requests I don't think was the issue. There are people who quite literally spam those requests to anybody. But change is indeed inevitable. I do agree though that a "teaching" system would help immensely, but it's entirely contingent on new players actually wanting to learn and to aspire to be better than they are.

Crim, I think if you were to quit right now, the whole community would fall apart. I am so thankful that you are still here, posting amazing things over and over again. You are the biggest role model of the PL community, and I think a lot of us take that for granted. I cannot tell you how much I love reading your posts, and just saying to myself "Why couldn't I think of that?" It is such an honor to be able to play this game with you, and you have inspired me (starting now) to stop the impulsive actions that I tend to do. I think a lot of the trolling and immaturity is starting to get at some of the veterans of this community, and it's so cool to see that one of us can't be affected. Starting now, I am going to try to make a difference with the new players. If we can't change end game, then go to the root of the problem. Teach people that trolling isn't cool, and help them develop a love for the game like the rest of us.

Thank you for not giving up on this community Crim.

Hence the issue I noted. The community did once lose someone very important because they fundamentally disagreed with the direction of the game, a very long time ago. A person, who at the time influenced the game as much as Crim - a person only most of the oldies would know: Royce.

I believe that earlier it was noted that posters in this thread speak in absolutes. Well - I hate to say it, but there are absolutes in many cases in terms of the legacies that people have left on the community. I must admit I am not a fan of the politically correct "everyone is special in their own way" kind of stuff. Seeing that we cannot meet face to face (or probably will not ever), we must look to their contributions based on what they say on the forums and do in the games.

@Whoisthis - That pretty much sums it up.

This issue has been addressed in the past, but I've always had an issue in our PL economy and how everything is overpriced. Am I the only one that feels we are in need of a gold sink?

As Whoisthis mentioned, there is a large gap between the poor and the rich, and it will continue to stay like that. I consider my 5mill to be on the poorer side of PL (as all of my good buddies have like 80+mill).

A money sink would have to target the very richest if that were to work and not harm the poorest. Often money sinks in other MMOs, from experience hurt the poor the most. The other problem is that many wealthy players are a disproportionately high source of income for STS in terms of platinum sales and that they may resent a money sink.

I'm going to think about this more in depth. I suspect though that a solution would radically change the economy.

[Mothwing]

So nice to have you back

[MightyMicah]

Remember what I said. AL is not eternal.

You know it's interesting. In 2011, SL was the latest and greatest that STS had to offer. There were quite a few posts saying that SL would avoid the issues that had plagued PL and that it would be the shining beacon of mobile gaming. I disagreed at the time. Well, today is 2013, and well, I wish I did not have the last laugh on that one.

The real question is, what happens after AL. Either BD becomes the new AL, STS has yet another game in development (I bet they do at this very moment), or they redouble their efforts on existing IP.

I think it's the third one that has the best potential to earn a truly big fanbase if done correctly, but that's the big "if".

In theory I certainly agree with you. It seems to me that if they would concentrate on their relatively inactive games and make them good, word would spread and they would pick up a player base as well as more cash in the long run. However, I believe it might be noteworthy to mention that some of the most successful gaming companies out there right now, to my knowledge (Which is indeed limited, I admit) have many games. Gameloft and Zynga to mention two.

I definitely agree that AL will not last forever. Other games are going to come out and the AL fan base will die eventually. As you mentioned, STS will have a few options and for some reason my gut tells me that they'll opt to release a whole new game. I guess we'll find out when the time comes.

[Argyros]

I'm currently on a train typing this, so I'm hoping I'll have more time later this weekend (or next week). So far though, I have refrained from participating, as I am more interested in seeing what people have to say.

Based on this conversation, I can conclude the following:

1. The general consensus is that the quality of the community is in general decline. The loss of many of the oldies has left a hole that nothing can fill. Compounding the situation immensely, the new generation is simply not in a position to pick up the losses. The issue isn't so much that there are a lack of new good players as it is the percentage of new good to bad players. From the new generation, we do not see a new Ellyidol, a new Royce, or a new Physiologic emerging.

2. The lack of content has taken it's toll on the game, which is somewhat related to part 1. The existing content is simply not enough to attract quality new players (most will end up in AL), nor will it attract back many of the old greats.

3. PvP is in need of a total revamp. There are major class imbalances. The nerf is likely only the tip of the scale of the magnitude of issues. All stats should be built with PvP in mind first, seeing that PvE has become severely elixir dominated.

The state of PvP balance is also another issue - good PvPers are not going to be attracted unless we can expect a reasonable degree of balance.

4. This brings me to the next point, which is the extent that elixir domination has taken hold. Skill is no longer rewarded in PvE, and indeed, skilled players are hard to find. For example, scatter bears have become the status quo. We now have 2 types of runs - first where there is at least 1 elixir user in which case the run has very little challenge, the second, where there are no elixirs, which becomes an exercise in frustration.

5. The rich-poor gap has become a severe issue. We now have the gap between a very wealthy population and a population that cannot afford the top end gear with little hope of upward mobility.

6. Perhaps the biggest issue of all (next to the lack of new content) is the overall attitude of new players. It's a mentality thing I guess. When you are dealing with a playerbase unwilling to learn to play their class effectively, and unwilling to learn from existing veterans, you have an environment that is well, problematic.

Ok, seeing this thread, I think we should address the issues one at a time. The easiest by far to ask for is reforms to existing gear so that will be the object of my first major thread.

1. There are players who have done painful work such as Royce and the other fellows. Why don't you notice them? They are not recognized. "Back in the day," players with high intellectual abilities recieved the GOA status. For better or for worse that program has been shut down.

It's very bold of me to say this but... Y'all "oldies," are way more mature then you were 3 years ago. I love the oldies, they have so much experience. To prove my point, look at Mysticals threads/posts from 3 years ago, and check em out now. Whoa.

The "new generation," may be imature, but that because they obviously are not on the same experience level as y'all.

2. Agreed. But I think promoting upcoming content would also help, I.e. ads.

3. I play a broad range of PvP levels, and there are many imbalances. The recent tweak has solved some important issues though. Just today, I fought a 61 bear for 3 minutes, and lost. I was level 51 that is. ^^ PvP is getting there slowly though.

4. Very true. I, as an endgame bear suffer from this. Crowd control is almost nonexistent, players beckon stomp, because it looks cool and they can do it. Elixir wise, something must change?

5. Hm no. I have personal experiences with players earning enough to purchase endgame sets in 1-2 months. It takes comitment, time, and patience, but it is very possible.

6. "When you are dealing with a playerbase unwilling to learn to play their class effectively, and unwilling to learn from existing veterans, you have an environment that is well, problematic."

Hm, "...unwilling to learn..."
You may hear players talk of, "ignorant, imature, fb users," but until you actually try and teach them... You cannot judge them. Go ahead and share some knowledge.

Actions speak louder than words.

[WhoIsThis]

In theory I certainly agree with you. It seems to me that if they would concentrate on their relatively inactive games and make them good, word would spread and they would pick up a player base as well as more cash in the long run. However, I believe it might be noteworthy to mention that some of the most successful gaming companies out there right now, to my knowledge (Which is indeed limited, I admit) have many games. Gameloft and Zynga to mention two.

I definitely agree that AL will not last forever. Other games are going to come out and the AL fan base will die eventually. As you mentioned, STS will have a few options and for some reason my gut tells me that they'll opt to release a whole new game. I guess we'll find out when the time comes.

I do not consider either Gameloft or Zynga to be successful companies. Gameloft for the most part has been well, copying other people's games and porting them. What I do not expect from them is a game that will define a generation the way WoW, Starcraft, LoL, or any of the other top games are.

Zynga ... well, I have a quote I would like to share with you, but if you follow the news, they're in trouble. Pretty big trouble. I recommend reading them up in the news. Anyways, apparently they've turned to online gambling in a bid to turn around their business. There's even speculation that they may go bankrupt. Well, they rose fast, and now they seem to be in rapid decline. Google them up on the latest news.

I still maintain that the games that defined their era were for the most part, made by companies that focused.

1. There are players who have done painful work such as Royce and the other fellows. Why don't you notice them? They are not recognized. "Back in the day," players with high intellectual abilities recieved the GOA status. For better or for worse that program has been shut down.

It's very bold of me to say this but... Y'all "oldies," are way more mature then you were 3 years ago. I love the oldies, they have so much experience. To prove my point, look at Mysticals threads/posts from 3 years ago, and check em out now. Whoa.

Yes and no. I will be the first to say that we are all different people than 3 years ago. It's interesting. I was one of those that supported scrapping the GOA (let's just say I ruffled a few feathers to put it mildly). The program had split the community in two. There were people who were well, "suck-ing up" for the GOA and in some cases were getting awarded it. I'll talk more about the issues in the series of threads I will post later on.

The "new generation," may be imature, but that because they obviously are not on the same experience level as y'all.

6. "When you are dealing with a playerbase unwilling to learn to play their class effectively, and unwilling to learn from existing veterans, you have an environment that is well, problematic."

Hm, "...unwilling to learn..."
You may hear players talk of, "ignorant, imature, fb users," but until you actually try and teach them... You cannot judge them. Go ahead and share some knowledge.

Actions speak louder than words.

This one I gotta disagree with. When I say unwilling to learn, I firmly stand by what I said. The majority of players from the new generation are simply unwilling to learn. A run without elixirs often ends with one side blaming the other. The irony is that often the blamer does not understand the mechanics themselves ... and they are certainly not going to listen to someone that they are busy blaming. That's pretty common. I don't like complaining about it because I sound like a broken record, but I have to say, it's true, and judging by the posts in this thread, I'm not the only one with palpable frustration. Let's just say that more than a couple of people have tried to teach in the past, and with less than satisfactory results. Mitch even tried to open up a "teaching school" back in late 2011.

You have to understand, the first players back in 2010, were what I called "self made players". When they came in, none of the resources that you see here were available. Theorycrafting had to be developed for the first time and in that era, a lot of it was guesswork. But the difference was mentality. At the end of each run, we would in our heads, always ask ourselves, what could we have done better? That's something I asked myself every time. When my old guild lost a game to Unity, you know, I spent a long, long time asking myself that question. So did Mitch. So did Amy. Starting with what became known as the Mynas generation, I think we've seen a steady drop. While there are undoubtedly some very remarkable new players (and I'm honored by their arrivals - really I am, and I actually think you are one of those), I think that the percentage of players asking themselves how they can improve has gone down.

I myself was never a founder, nor do I belong in the generation of "self made players", but I came in with a mentality that I wanted to play my class to the best I could. I do however look up to the first generation and am humbled by their accomplishments. What did I do when I came in? I read the guides available then, used all resources I found available. That does not happen with this generation, in terms of the percent of players interested. The resources are out there and arguably more sophisticated than anything we had in well, our learning periods. The point is that it takes time, a lot of practice, and a lot of dying to get truly good at a game. A lot of the newer players - they just don't want to do that. I should mention that this is nothing new. Even in my day, there were tons of players where you could see all their stats, but they hid their PvP ones. You could always tell those were the ones that were unwilling to take the time to get good at PvP. I mean, the first time you step into PvP, you get owned. That's the same in most MMOs and MOBAs. To get good at something, you have to do your research, and most of all, practice.

I'm not perfect, nor do I pretend to be. I actually consider my main, Attackelf to be an average PvPer (although there are going to be those on this forum that will disagree with me on that one). That and the past was definitely not perfect. I don't look at the past with rose colored lenses. A lot of the features that you see around you did not exist, like guilds for example were added only in fall of 2011. The engine too was older, more primitive. But I personally would trade it all for the experiences offered in that era.

Edit:

Ok this issue seems more critical.

First will be a community building thread, then the equipment thread.

[killinclaw]

Really, really good response and postings. I really am honored to be apart of this community and to share ideas, thoughts with all of you. Especially you, moth and crim, your ideas are always so thoughtfully expressed. I myself have been around for a while, but I've stayed in the shadows, and kept my opinions to myself. But I believe now is the time for us, l Iong time pl players to express themselves, even more than what everyone has in the past.
As we can tell, justg has responded to this post, devs are listening, lets give them our minds worth. Pl may have 10 times less players than pl but even stg doesn't know how al will turn out a year, 2 years from now. Stg cares but they can only do so much.
My point is they listen, for feedback, for ideas for what we have to say, how can they as devs for this beloved game that we cherish so much, though its not their "cash cow" anymore, make it better, make it sustainable for us.
I noted some ideas in my earlier post, but I was on my lunch break from work lol, then I started thinking, if I was stg, what can I do, if I was a player, what would I want to see.
Here are just some thoughts, new cap, set in outer space, gurox's older brothers are mad, and they want to do what whatever it takes to take over altera, hence new bosses and minions. New gear, lord of the rings meet starcraft. Cyber swords, similar to light sabers, can also be like metallic arabian swords. If devs can't make a full lvl cap, then add it to existing lvls, min 2 lvls per map. Make it with a whole new story, call it guroxs revenge for all I care. Its new material for all of us. Im revealing my age here but anyone remember the "choose your adventure" books? Make each answer a different one than the previous one, with different rewards. Idk just my 2 cents, I may not be well renowned, or set records in pl but im a long term player, and I love this game just like all of you. Lets give the devs an ear full of our ideas on what we'd like to see in the future. Srry for the rambling.
But new cap id like to see, called Silver Moons if Alterra, who said Alterra only had one moon

[angeldawn]

I actually find it easy to help and teach lower level new players (55 and under) PVE skills.

When running with low level new players it is easy to say. Hey by the way do you know your bird combos? Did you know you can combo with my Mage? Ok let's try it!! Ppl actually get so excited when they do this and see the combos come up on the screen. Then they start to ask what other combos are there and what else can learn.

It is also very easy in maps to say ..,. Ok guys do u know how to kill this boss? And then wait for them to answer and explain before entering boss area.

I have run into issues with higher levels like bears saying taunt is useless and not needed but lower level are very accepting as long as you aren't insulting them as you do it.

[Argyros]

I actually find it easy to help and teach lower level new players (55 and under) PVE skills.

When running with low level new players it is easy to say. Hey by the way do you know your bird combos? Did you know you can combo with my Mage? Ok let's try it!! Ppl actually get so excited when they do this and see the combos come up on the screen. Then they start to ask what other combos are there and what else can learn.

It is also very easy in maps to say ..,. Ok guys do u know how to kill this boss? And then wait for them to answer and explain before entering boss area.

I have run into issues with higher levels like bears saying taunt is useless and not needed but lower level are very accepting as long as you aren't insulting them as you do it.

Thank you Angel, you summed up exactly what I was leading to.
I have met players (55 and under) who are teachable and pretty bright.

It always starts with a player asking me a question like, "hey do you have any swords?" Most people will take this as downright begging, but that's simply not true.
I usually give them a pink/purp item right above their level, which is probably worth around 10k. They are always ecstatic.

This, in turn, gives me the chance to ask them questions, rebuke them on using combos in wrong situations. This often leads to more questions, like "what does debuff mean?" "what are my debuffs?"

To summarize, new players are often willing to learn, if you take the time to teach them.

Edit- I see bears, not even using taunt and hs. They are so important, without them, I wouldn't even play that class. >.<

[tHelonestud]

This one I gotta disagree with. When I say unwilling to learn, I firmly stand by what I said. The majority of players from the new generation are simply unwilling to learn. A run without elixirs often ends with one side blaming the other. The irony is that often the blamer does not understand the mechanics themselves ... and they are certainly not going to listen to someone that they are busy blaming. That's pretty common. I don't like complaining about it because I sound like a broken record, but I have to say, it's true, and judging by the posts in this thread, I'm not the only one with palpable frustration. Let's just say that more than a couple of people have tried to teach in the past, and with less than satisfactory results. Mitch even tried to open up a "teaching school" back in late 2011.

This is a huge thing especially endgame, I remember stepping into pvp and getting destroyed, thankfully several of my friends gave me tips and patiently taught me after I asked.
Now endgame you see a bear use rage beckon and stomp, unsure of what a bird's debuff does. When the bird is actually skilled enough to counter and pull off a fairly simple win the bear doesn't even say a disgruntled "gf" but rather "lol" or say something about luck. I really find this the most in bears, pallies, and warbirds. They act if their godlike dodge is actually based on their skill.
Heard from another bear that beckon stomp combo was "supposed to be overpowered" and that they were supposed to be most damage outputting class.
I realized this goes back to the pvp issues rather than just the community. I actually think the problems of the in game community springs from the lack of understanding for the game, and now with this pvp issues and the elixirs in pve, the lack of this need to understand it.
The game hardly promotes teamwork anymore.

[Roberto077]

Reading this full thread would take way too long for me: so to the past 17 replies, I say maybe.

EDIT: now that I have read some comments, I agree that there is little to no teamwork because of elixir dominance and easiness of PvE, and PvP at endgame can be dominated by a simple combo or build.

[Extreme]

1. Go to Tx
2. Go to sts
3. Kiss devs
4. Back home.

[CrimsonTider]

First will be a community building thread, then the equipment thread.

I can save you some time.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...g-All-Arms!***