My mag, oldcoothree .
My mag, oldcoothree .
Thanks Oldcoot.
I'm going to get my thoughts down first, then incorporate the pictures into the thread.
Edit:
Ok it's done. I've completed a revision of the equipment thread.
If anyone want's it, the old one is here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...00#post1331000
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 11-09-2013 at 10:21 PM.
Maybe the burning bush branch staff could be relevant too, as it has a bit more weapon damage and +20 armor than the fiery staff.
Attachment 46128
Fire skill with elite staff equipped : 560-675
Fire skill with wand/eye equipped: 475-627
If I'm not mistaken it's 18-8% more weapon damage
Attachment 46129
Fair enough about the burning bush. It is slightly more powerful than the 75 staff. But look again:Originally Posted by Faliziaga
Fire skill on staff gives 560-675, which averages out to 617.5.
Fire skill on wand/bracer gives 475 - 627, which averages out to 551.
617.5 / 551 = about 1.12, so staff is 12% more powerful than wand
One issue though:
Crit on staff is just 54%. Crit on wand, is about 10% higher at 64%.
So for 12% higher base damage, you lose 10% crit. Also, note the weapons dps. 353/319 (granted the staff will do more per hit because staffs have a speed of 1.1 versus 1.0 for the wand), but the staff only does 10.65% more weapons dps, which in turn is offset by the 10% higher crit on the wand.
It's actually more complicated then that. A dead mage does no dps. Things hit harder in this tier than before in PvE. With staff you're much more likely to die. So the 12% base damage, less the 10% crit bonus only tells a part of the story. The only benefit of the staff is that it is slower and does slightly more (12% damage) per skill, which may help against heavily armored targets.
And in return for going on staff, judging by the 2 pictures in return for that slight gain in damage, you lose compared to wand/bracer:
- 241 - 188 or 53 armor (by the way, 241/188 = ~28% less armor)
- 2% dodge
- 22 health
- 1 M/S (not big but still not a good choice)
- 11 H/S
I still stand by what I said. Staff even with the 76 staff does not justify it's gains.
For the staff to be worth it, it would need:
- The same crit as the wand/bracer set
- A bit more than 12% damage; seeing that it has 28% less armor, it's only fair that it gets 28% more damage
At the moment, only birds use the 2h weapon, the level 76 bow. But the 2h sword and the 2h staff are not used by bears/pallies, nor mages as much respectively.
What we need is a
1. 76 wand and a 76 1h sword
2. The buffs to the 2h sword and staff
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 11-10-2013 at 02:41 PM.
First of all, I am amazed by the effort and precision you put into this great thread, Attackelf!
As I resurrected my forum account, gonna give my 2 cents too
For the younger readers, who don't know me: I used to play a lot during AO3 / Sewer days. Since I quit I only sneak in occasionally to check out new content. So I am not exactly up to date.
I think you ate right to focus on reforms just from the PvP view. While I never was a PvP person I grew to believe that the pve part of pl is so broken, that there is no way of fixing it with "just" changes in game mechanics.
Since nuri's I find playing pve, especially in pugs frustratingly hard when without elixir and mind numbing boring when on multi elixir. The fact, that in every pug there is at least one speed potted player kills all team play ambitions, which where the center piece of an enjoyable pve experience for me.
And all the many people liked to spend hours of theory planning how to build, how to skill, how to gear your toon to improve are now pointless cause a multi elixir is way better than your best build improvement.
I can't imagine that many pve enthusiasts are still playing pl.
So I think the direction of this thread is perfect, try to save PvP - as long as there are no PvP elixirs available.
First of all, I am amazed by the effort and precision you put into this great thread, Attackelf!
As I resurrected my forum account, gonna give my 2 cents too
For the younger readers, who don't know me: I used to play a lot during AO3 / Sewer days. Since I quit I only sneak in occasionally to check out new content. So I am not exactly up to date.
I think you ate right to focus on reforms just from the PvP view. While I never was a PvP person I grew to believe that the pve part of pl is so broken, that there is no way of fixing it with "just" changes in game mechanics.
Since nuri's I find playing pve, especially in pugs frustratingly hard when without elixir and mind numbing boring when on multi elixir. The fact, that in every pug there is at least one speed potted player kills all team play ambitions, which where the center piece of an enjoyable pve experience for me.
And all the many people liked to spend hours of theory planning how to build, how to skill, how to gear your toon to improve are now pointless cause a multi elixir is way better than your best build improvement.
I can't imagine that many pve enthusiasts are still playing pl.
So I think the direction of this thread is perfect, try to save PvP - as long as there are no PvP elixirs available.
Unfortunately, it's not just PvP that needs saving. PvE is also not viable without elixirs as you've noted.
The majority of the people we knew are gone. The issue with PvE is that there's little incentive to well, get better. What we need is a system to incentive people to get better at PvE and where elixirs are not used.
That said, I think the difficulty level forces it. The reality is, without elixirs, builds like pure int mage and pure dex bird would not be viable. Everyone would forced to be strength. But apart from that, the other issue is that the average PUG simply does not have the skill needed to complete any of the levels without the use of some elixirs. I sometimes go to lower end levels and solo them just to keep my non-elixir PvE skills at an acceptable level.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 11-10-2013 at 03:49 PM.
I'm going to put together a more modest guide. This guide will remain the "stretch" target.
See here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...lance-the-game
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 11-10-2013 at 09:23 PM.
I noticed my post wasn't constructive or helpful, so some actual ideas that could be interesting:
To promote elixir free playing as an alternative to the new normal:
1 count kills separately when on elixir
2 count kills with made xp anywhere even separate from that
3 extra leaderboards for elixir free kills
4 a timed map with leaderboards for elixir/clean groups
5 specific loot for elixir free groups (f.e different colored gear)
6 elixir free quest with item reward (kill koal 50 times with clean groups and receive item x)
For a team play revival:
7 higher bonus damage for mega combos
8 more mega combos with new classes
9 bosses who are vulnerable to a certain class / mega combos
10 After leveling up to level 30, 40, 50 ... you get to see a mini tutorial on a topic of basic class and team mechanics
Gear:
11 sets with a DMG, armor or speed bonus that doesn't stack with elixirs
12 Less DMG for str gear (Too many mages/birds wearing str is part of the reason why elixir free runs are so terrible now in my opinion - lots of missing skill DMG)
Interesting ideas, but the issues are going to be:
1. How to persuade STS of an alternative to an elixir dominated game?
2. Balancing multiple types of gear (right now they're struggling to balance 3 sets for PvP, so with 6 sets ... that could create some serious issues from a PvP standpoint).
3. How to prevent people from "gaming" the leaderboards (usually someone is going to figure out a way to "game" the leaderboards in a way that doesn't break any rules - PvP kill farming is kind of like this).
4. How to get a PuG to coordinate a mega combo (most pugs simply do not have that type of coordination).
They're good ideas though. I'm not sure how to implement them effectively though.
I added a section on my proposals to change the skills. This is coming along slower than I expected, and I have modified a few things based on my observations of PvP.
I plan to write a conclusion soon and add the images provided.
Does anybody else have feedback for this thread?
Dude, this is SO good! As I've been watching you make change after change, I've been thinking in my head thoughts such as, "What about this? And what about that?" I haven't voiced them because I have been patiently waiting for you to complete everything. It seems my patience is paying off! What you have created is a full-proof system for pve/pvp mechanics. Certainly these suggestions and theories of yours have yet to be tested for balance, however you are very effectively laying a foundation upon which changes could be easily altered afterwards, if need be, to complete balancing arrangements. SO good!
In my comment above I got so carried away that I forgot to mention what I'm even excited about in the recent change. You have effectively solved the problem of health pool increase in direct proportion to level increase. It seems so simple, yet so complex. Very well done.
Last edited by MightyMicah; 11-19-2013 at 01:15 PM.
Yeah I meant for this to be scalable. Balancing a game is never an easy issue.
I am considering the possibility of giving strength hit.
The only issue right now is, will the devs act on it?
Ok I know this is an old thread but I was reading through it and decided to ask a question I always forget to ask, which probably will make me sound stupid, although I am not very informed on the mechanics.
If you compare the stats of a regular fiery mage with the bears posted on page 3 even without rings, it just doesn't make sense, having range doesnt make it any easier for mages so why are the armour amd damage, health and dodge stats so unbalanced? I understand that str, dex and int have different strengths but this below is ridiculous.
It is even worse with dex archers like the one on page 3, even without rings they are too superior to mages, yes their armour isnt great but there isn't much difference between theirs and fiery mages, the majority of their skills are damage focused and so they kill too quickly. Can I also add that the small difference in armour is ridiculous because that is with the bird using a two handed weapon, and a fiery mage using a wand and shield! When birds use talon set, their armour is better and the damage is still better. There was a time where you could ms when charging so their blast shot hits your health, but they all know that trick now..
What I'm saying is, you have to do a lot of work and worry about too many things at once as a fiery mage to have a chance of killing. Believe it or not I have killed some bears occasionally who would destroy me usually, but that was because I dodged beckon too many times, got some crits, while at the same time frantically trying to watch my mana, health, trying to stay away from the bear while I watch in despair as drain fire and lightning are dodged, until finally i get a lucky combo where everything lands..then they just beckon stomp dead in the next fight..
Why is it at endgame that birds and bears are so much simpler to use? Bears just need to worry about landing beckon, birds need to worry about being able to press 3 skills in 2 seconds vs mages and being able to land repulse on bears then skill spam..
Does anyone think sts did this because mages pretty much dominate pvp nearly up to level 50? Or is that a badly researched statement?
Last edited by anahadaz; 07-13-2014 at 05:49 PM.
^ thing is ur viewing everything from an already broken system.
endgame mages r STILL op yes overpowered in term of 'nuke' BUT endgame int set is underpowered in term of defense add op dodge of dodgy classes with that.
in one sentence, str classes r op in endgame.
@Ana
Every class is OP, that's the fact of the matter. Mages can do insane damage in terms of nuking/crit/AOE.
So when you 1v1 a bird, why are they so difficult?
All the mages skills have a delay on them, whereas a bird's skills are instantaneous. That split-second elapsed time is critical for winning a fight. I enjoy having the delayed skills as it can make things interesting and really useful when mastered - but you get the idea.
Bears just have an unfair advantage of both armor and stuns spells. Their combined armor, stuns, and damage is altogether ludicrous. When/If STS decides to rework the stats, they need to make the bears focus on just armor and stunning, but not the damage aspect. If this is the case, their armor should be increased, but their damage should be dramatically decreased. (Then you have problems with skill level damage, dodge, and crit for all classes... but those are the essential pieces).
Why are they so difficult? I die in less than half of a second (to most of them anyway), like i don't even get a skill away, just so fast!
Also I returned to 76 pvp for today and all of a sudden I was able to make use of the heal lag time, when beckon stomped by a bear at the start i flew across the map at full health!
Last edited by anahadaz; 07-14-2014 at 07:07 PM.
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