I love how this thread (started by a rogue) has started at calling warriors OP, and then tried (but of course failed) to call mages OP, and now we are where people are calling rogues OP.
The only truth: Mages are underpowered.
They rarely get me below 70% and maybe get me to 50% if lightning crits. But, rogues can drop me to 65% in a single shot.
@Crowsfoot, just one thing. I have not started a thread at calling warriors OP nor I've said mages are OP. I've said that warriors, maybe, have lil bit more chances in pvp than other classes. That's why I've posted that screenshot along with the text.
Yes, it's true mages are really underpowered. They have highest damage on paper but their criticals (if they crit), are not high enough to kill a warrior. As you say, they do 30-50% dmg of your total health.
Also, it's impossible that mage > rogue statement is true.
And, @Zeus, Warrior > Mage, Mage > Rogue, Rogue > Warrior. If, but IF this is true, how'd it be then in pvp? Warrior will hunt mages only, mage rogues and rogue warriors? How'd it be? Lets say you're a warrior. You run around in ctf and you notice a rogue is approaching. You'll skip the rogue, and run more untill you find a mage. Then you'll stop, kill him, and continue like that? Same goes for mages and rogues.
Isnt it better that everyone can kill everyone?
the only balance in this game is on low levels, everything there is balance compared to end gaming
try to play in low levels you will see how it goes
Can a mage not kill a rogue more times than a rogue kills a mage, Meecah. Assuming they are equally geared and equally skilled? In the situations I have faced, when fighting a maxed out rogue vs a maxed out mage, this is typically the case. Of course, it also depends on the build.Originally Posted by katish
A mythic staff isn't really close range, because you can still attack from afar. For a mythic dagger, you literally must be face to face with your enemy if you want to be doing damage with your weapon, thus having to endure both the auto attacks and the skill damage of an opponent.
Last edited by Zeus; 12-08-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Is it better? Yeah, but balance can be viewed in different ways. Unfortunately, there is never going to be true balance. Instead, like most MMOs, there exists a combat triangle. No matter how many threads are made, that won't change it because you literally cannot without changing a classes's fundamentals.
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I'd like it if all classes had base stat points to apply towards 3 basic stats, for example:
-dex to increase dodge n crit n maybe an attack speed modifier
- str to increase health n dps
- int to increase mana n dmg
So our armor would come from gear. Our final dmg would be dependant on how we distributed our stat points as all as the opponent's. We'd have real variety. Right now mages go all int with maybe a few points in strength. Rogues go all dex with maybe few points in int. Idk what warriors do reallyso it all comes down to gear... Because basic builds pretty much are all the same.
And perhaps in this way we'd see more variety in skill selection too.. I think having a primary stat for each class is bad for balance.
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Again you complete ignore the fact of which class has the best KDR and which class gets the most kills. Its definitely not mages. As I said, if it was truly balanced then all classes would have similar KDRs and number of kills. Staff is a close range weapon, you have to get a lot closer to your target then a gun. And unlike a gun you can't hit your target without pointing it in their direction. So it makes kiting less effective. So if you want to do the maximum amount of damage you to be closer and/or more stationary. So its no different then mythic daggers. Mages survival is entirely based on not being hit because our armor is so low. And shield doesn't last long enough.
As for 1v1 against a rogue it mostly comes down to how many attack skills you have. Fighting a rogue with livegiver as one of your skills is completely useless. This is why any 3 attack skills, plus shield, whether one of them is curse puts the advantage in the mages corner. The fight doesn't last long enough and the fight is more like rogue vs rogue but the mage can stun more so he can stop the rogue from doing damage. So the first 5 seconds of fighting is in the mages favor. Anything longer then 10 seconds, then its pretty much the mage is dead. If a rogue fights a mage with 2 attack skill with lifegiver and shield, the fight is entirely in the rogues favor. IMO, as a mage if you want to be successful you need to run 5 skills. Because 2 skills doesn't do enough damage and lifegiver doesn't return enough health to help you survive.
No class is OP, IMO the the way mages are designed they are under powered. But given where the game is now, its like closing the door after the horse has left the barn. Nothing will be done about this. My recommendation is if you don't like playing a mage then go play another class.
They aren't really...
I believe when developers first made the games, if I remember correctly, there was a quote of the basic combat triangle being posted:
• Rogue > Warrior
• Sorcerer > Rogue
• Warrior > Sorcerer
Back in PL, my warrior could kill mages without my health dipping below 50%, but against a bird, I had a very good chance of losing.
Does a sorcerer need a proper build to take out rogues? Sure. As Falmear says, the conventional stun/heal build isn't the way to do it.
@Falmear
Sorcerers are unfortunately meant to be squishy, so they will die a lot in the process of getting kills. Heck, when have you ever heard of a sorcerer's robes stopping a piercing arrow? The shield, while it only provides 2 seconds of invulnerability, does give a consistent amount of damage reduction.
Whenever I'm fighting, it's not uncommon to see a rogue or sorcerer get a similar amount of kills.
The class balance is as close as it'll ever get & in the past, whenever STG tries messing with it in other games via combat rebalances, it generally doesn't turn out to be balanced. It'll only tip the favors in another class.
So, I suggest we all stop beating the dead horse and appreciate both the weaknesses and advantages of each class.
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If everyone had similar kdrs we would all have to play the same class...
You do realize that, by nature, warriors will have the best kdrs but the lowest kill count. Rogues will have the highest kill count . And mages suffer for these reasons:
1) warriors can actually kill mages so we attack you first (60% of my kills are probably mages).
2) mages heal the mana of rogues, so we want to kill you first.
3) you have the lowest health, so its easiest to kill you first.
4) once shield runs off you die within 5 hits, so I attack all mages without a shield up.
5) mages have low dodge, so you guys get stunned a lot easier than rogues.
God save the mage!
A few thoughts
The balance from my point of view was better in the end of last season, we mages got the best mythic weapon, arcane warriors were less common.
Rogue vs mage, it was more like rogue>mage before the arcane shield and curse skill improvements.
I did very good vs warriors in the past, which helped me a lot: the old guns push proc&slag the ultimate sorcerer pet.
But i still can not understand: how a rogue crits me 3600 on the very first aimed shot with ~400 dmg (with over 40% base crit chance, it happens a lot), if i crit on the rogue with lightning max 2000 ~570dmg? The armor differences cannot be the reason.
it would be nice to give mages a lil bit more armour i guess. but if you think about, most mages in pvp have 2 offensive skills (fire ball and lightning).......and we can still do plenty damage and get kills.... but if we had armour simular to rogue why would we need a shield? we could bring in a 3rd offensive skill (maybe ice) we would do much more damge now 0.0 i think sts tried really hard to balance this out as much as possible. a good idea i think would be to make the cooldown for shield not as long.
as for warrior leave them for last
Thats exactly how it is now!
I cant beat any good warrior BUT i can kill full rogues with Samael in 1on1 even beeing not full myth (also no archon!) and using legendary pets.
Rogues kill the warriors, mostly and the warriors kill the mages at all times!
In terms of 2on2 or even more its easy to say the team with more warriors wins. You dont need to enter the battlefield if enemy team consits of 4 warriors, except they totally mess up the teamplay and skilltiming.
Last edited by Robhawk; 12-09-2013 at 08:45 AM.
well in my opinion its like stone paper scissors. and if u dont like being a stone, then be a scissor...
in the end its about determination and skill. no class is op except the class u let your mind think is op.
The source you provided is not valid. You just got those stat from random people lmao.. and of course we know we can easily hide our TRUE stat as I always do every time Im out of PVP arena... but I agree with you that the game is NOT balance.. WHY?
Lvl 15 to 16 - Extremely NOT BALANCE
Lvl 20 to 21 - slightly not balance
These level bracket has ELITE GEARS and we all know that these gears are already RARE and OVER POWER, specifically for lvl 15 to 16. Meaning even if you have the money its not that easy to be fully gear or max out since the only chance you can have these gear if other player who has it is quitting the game or willing to sell it for THE BIGGER OFFER.
These elite gear cause imbalance of the game coz STS stop generating it.
If they suggest not to play on these level.. Ok so be it.. but this has only one meaning >>>> THE GAME IS NOT BALANCE'
In terms of CLASSES. The only thing I think which is not balance is for the mages skill which the HEAL. Its cooldown time and the amount it heals..
Last edited by Crescentwind; 12-09-2013 at 04:53 PM.
How many times do you see rogues getting KOed with a single crit lightning strike, or even a light/ice combo? A fireball stun, ice, light?
Mages have a good chance at rogues but only if everything is in their favor from the start. The mage must have shield already up. Or the fight was over before it started. If you take only 1v1 dual stats, mages tend to come out slightly higher in kdr, agreed. If you add in all the times that we get suckered before we can put shield up or while waiting for shield and heal to cool down that value declines. Yes, I am still talking 1v1 not secondary attack. In pure tdm 1v1, even if a mage wins, a rogue can spawn, cross the map and kill me before Shield and Lifegiver are cooled off. This can often result in an even kdr even if I win 100% of the initial battles, which I don’t.
From warriors a quick Smash/Windmill combo will wipe us out post haste as well. I am almost full mythic and my loss rate to warriors is faaaaarrrr greater than my win ratio against rogues. So to make the Warrior>Mage>Rogue=Balance argument valid the average Mage>Rogue kill rate should be equally dominant as the Warrior>Mage or the Rogue>Warrior. This is definitely not the case.
All arguments of skill, gear, and tactics aside, if STS were to average the kdr of the top 500 in each class, I would be willing to bet that you will see some sizable discrepancies. If they can show me hard stats that the average kdr is “equal” I will eat crow and stop complaining…
If I am fighting a bow user, using my staff, the staff is feels very much "close range." Using a shotgun against a sniper doesn't exactly make for an effective ranged attack.
If I am fighting a daggers user the fight is entirely point blank range so the staff range is irrelevant anyway. Bringing a shotgun to a knife fight doesn't a ranged fight make.
Level 21-23 pvp is pretty balance. Just saying. Try it! And good luck :3
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Guildie of mine has over 700 DPS full mythic and omg her daggers so delicious!
If warrior uses skyward smash or rogue uses pierce against you how is it not a close range weapon? Using the staff you have to be inside skyward smash or pierce range. There is no leg to stand on why mythic rogue has more health then mythic mage. When the mythic rogue has 30% more armor. Its already insta death for me when my shield is down and I have arcane staff. Our health was nerfed this season and this is the most outrageous part in my opinion. Last season we had equal health and now this season we are at a serious disadvantage.
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