Are we hitting a cap on percent based buffs?

[Zeus]

More research....

I did a similar test to see if the 10% DMG stack from Aimed Shot works. I am pleased to report that it does! This includes my 5/5 DMG passive, so based on my sample, I am seeing approximately 11% gain in DMG between the first Aimed Shot and the Second, which is well within the expected margin of error.

Attachment 84031

One note in my testing is that the damage values recorded are extremely peaky! Note the Min/Max values. My Min for the first aimed bottomed out at 978, while my max peaked at 2089, or more than double the low value! Same applies to the second hit as well.

I told you, Kal!

[GoodSyntax]

;-)

Yes you did, but you know the old saying...."Trust, but verify"

[baddiva]

I've done some testing on brackenrige elite (50 shots each, critical not included), and here's the result




And IMHo, the passive dmg buff (that always applied and gives no icon in topleft) maybe different from timed dmg buff (such as from veil, pet's AA, or maybe archon rings)..
however, I seems to agree that there must be some limitations in order those stats come in effects. Yesterday I also tries to rush in a group of mobs in elite grog beach to test 100.71% dodge, but still I ended up kissing the wooden floor.

[Samhayne]

I've done some testing on brackenrige elite (50 shots each, critical not included), and here's the result




And IMHo, the passive dmg buff (that always applied and gives no icon in topleft) maybe different from timed dmg buff (such as from veil, pet's AA, or maybe archon rings)..
however, I seems to agree that there must be some limitations in order those stats come in effects. Yesterday I also tries to rush in a group of mobs in elite grog beach to test 100.71% dodge, but still I ended up kissing the wooden floor.

I believe that Dodge has some soft and hard caps on effectiveness.

[Samhayne]

Sam,

Does this mean that there will not be a rewrite to the code to enable damage stacking?

A rewrite of stacking rules is not in the current short list of "gotta get it done now", but it is in consideration for our backlog. Rome was not built in a day and all that. I believe there are also somethings we can do in design (that are a bit faster to implement) that are possible to address the effectiveness of different statistics and stacking. However, all such changes have wide sweeping implications to balance, so they are not something we will be entering into hastily.

Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.

[baddiva]

I believe that Dodge has some soft and hard caps on effectiveness.

Is critical too?

Honestly I think that the 100% dodge could compensate the lack of 2-sec invulnerability that the other classes have, so I patiently awaits for this lvl cap to try it. I guess my rogue should rely to potions then. Thanks anyway Sam.

[Zeus]

;-)

Yes you did, but you know the old saying...."Trust, but verify"

You and I think the same then.

[Serancha]

Thanks Sam. I think all we want though, is to see on our stat sheet what our actual damage is at any given time.

This means if we have passive damage and a damage pet both on, we need it to show our stats with whichever one is being actively counted. There is no point to it showing us our damage with passive as well as pet, if only one is being applied. This would be just as bad as the current problem.


Is this how it will work once the client update comes? If the devs were unaware of this non-stacking thing when fixing the display issue, I have trouble seeing how it will operate.

[Nesox]

I guess this means shadowlurks passive is mostly useless except for the crit modifier.

Not mostly... ENTIRELY. I did some testing today without pet, with pet, and with AA. The inital 10% showed up but the additional 10% from AA did not.

[Bigboyblue]

Thanks Sam. I think all we want though, is to see on our stat sheet what our actual damage is at any given time.

This means if we have passive damage and a damage pet both on, we need it to show our stats with whichever one is being actively counted. There is no point to it showing us our damage with passive as well as pet, if only one is being applied. This would be just as bad as the current problem.


Is this how it will work once the client update comes? If the devs were unaware of this non-stacking thing when fixing the display issue, I have trouble seeing how it will operate.

This is exactly what we need. As long as our true damage is shown on our stats page then we can decide what is the best option for us with ease.

[Thrindal]

A rewrite of stacking rules is not in the current short list of "gotta get it done now", but it is in consideration for our backlog. Rome was not built in a day and all that. I believe there are also somethings we can do in design (that are a bit faster to implement) that are possible to address the effectiveness of different statistics and stacking. However, all such changes have wide sweeping implications to balance, so they are not something we will be entering into hastily.

Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.

While this issue is frustrating for us I am glad you are not entering into anything hastily. I was very concerned about balance if all of a sudden damage was calculated differently. I think, as others have stated, the best current solution is to make sure our stats on our stat sheet to be accurate. Being honest I never trusted the Damage Passive, I had no evidence but my gut said it didn't work. This is mostly because I am a programer and If there is a miscalculation in one area I never trust the calculation is right anywhere else. Calculations should always be handled through a single procedure anyway and not handled differently in different locations which I am sure STS knows.

Going forward I would think a DMG cap like the Speed cap could be a good compromise. Cap DMG at %25, have that displayed correctly on the stat sheet and let those that can fine tune things figure out how to maximize our abilities. This could make it so that the same bow, staff, or sword is not by default always the best for everyone. Right now every Rogue that can carries an Expedition Recurve of Potency if they use a bow. It would be interesting if another bow were the best if paired with a different pet or combined with different passives.

[GoodSyntax]

This morning, I did some testing on Armor passives and Shadow Veil. All results are based on recording 60 hits taken, discarding critical hits.

For reference, my Rogue has 1439 Armor, so the 5/5 Armor passive should add another 71.95 Armor. Total armor with the passive should be 1511.

Below are my results:



Now, without knowing how armor affects damage reduction, it is difficult to assess how effective 5/5 Armor passive actually is.

While looking at the raw averages, one would assume that 5/5 Armor + Veil seems to stack; however, if you look at the Standard Deviation value, Veil with and without the 5/5 Armor passive implies that it does not stack.

Based on this, I can only conclude that the 5/5 Armor passive has very little value, and that the armor passive does not stack with Shadow Veil.

[Serancha]

Awesome test. Thanks kalizza

[Madnex]

Based on this, I can only conclude that the 5/5 Armor passive has very little value, and that the armor passive does not stack with Shadow Veil.

[insert sound of bubble being popped]

[GoodSyntax]

[insert sound of bubble being popped]

-.-

[Madnex]

Well if you want to look at the bright side.. erm, we're out of tests! So no more platinum draining.


Thanks both kali and sery, we know all now.

[GoodSyntax]

Well if you want to look at the bright side.. erm, we're out of tests! So no more platinum draining.


Thanks both kali and sery, we know all now.

If anyone wants to do a full write of up what we know, I think it may help - afterall, who will pour over 8 pages of posts with numbers, averages, means, St. Deviations, etc?

I think a quick write-up of what we discovered with stacking, passives, pet bonuses, elixirs, etc. would be very beneficial. Ordinarily, I would volunteer, but I think I've made enough people angry for one week.

[Kakashis]

now what about if we have damage reduction lix XD

[Serancha]

If anyone wants to do a full write of up what we know, I think it may help - afterall, who will pour over 8 pages of posts with numbers, averages, means, St. Deviations, etc?

I think a quick write-up of what we discovered with stacking, passives, pet bonuses, elixirs, etc. would be very beneficial. Ordinarily, I would volunteer, but I think I've made enough people angry for one week.

If someone does this, please include the test results from the other thread in the general section too. I put my tests in there, so as not to clutter the bug section.

*nominates Madnes so he has something to do other than pop bubbles*

[Crowsfoot]

You can thank the patch which nerfed rogue damage in PvP. Damage, armor, and DPS stats plateau at points and then spike greatly at others. Even more annoyingly, the base points I used at the 36 cap have changed. If you run elite with a maul it takes is roughly less than 2% more damage per hit than a glaive which has 6% more armor and was showing roughly 5% more damage reduction last season.

I sold the glaive and am using a coquistador shield weapon. I have slightly higher armor (less than 50, but I can't remember exactly right now) yet have another 3% damage reduction in elite Oltgar. Its ridiculous.

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My advice to anyone doing math to find "the best" spec/gear/pet: Assume a 10% margin of error and test your top 3-5 choices on an appropriately chosen map.