Regarding Elite Dungeons...

[Carapace]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

[Foebegone]

Option 2 sounds good to me, less messing with settings within a group and although I have no aspiration to be on the ldr board I do like to know the time. Any serious run is in a party anyway so I don't think this will annoy leader board attempts as no one does those in pug's

Sent from my device using an app.

[warriorromio]

Pls ..
U guys dont need to do any thing just one thing need change..
Id u r in a party amd hot disconnected...
Then u can join back...
Once the timer is start u can not change players..
Just the player hot disconnected or...
Any player leave for some reason then only he can join back...

Sent from my GT-I9082 using Tapatalk

[warriorromio]

Sorry for my bad eng )

Sent from my GT-I9082 using Tapatalk

[GoodSyntax]

Would /partyi 000 still force solo runs? As many know, I enjoy doing solo runs in all elite maps, so losing this component would actually impact me more than most.

Another issue I see is loot farming. Part of what keeps the loot distribution low is this natural restriction of players in a map, and thus boss drops. If players could randomly join with maps 75% complete (aka - all the tough pulls are finished), then it would artificially inflate the number of drops occurring, which could have a negative impact on the economy.

Would it be possible for 3 map levels - Normal maps (like what they are now), Hard maps (less than Elite, but more challenging than Normal), and Elite? Obviously, this would mean coming up with appropriate drops for these "Hard" scaled maps, something better than Legendary, but not as good as the Elite Legendaries.

I think a mid-tier level of map would work out nicely, because there is a considerable population that aren't challenged by the Normal maps, but some of the Elite maps are too difficult, or they can't find suitable parties. In these cases, they can sharpen their skills in "Hard" maps, and hopefully along the way, find friends who are ready to take that next step. To be honest, I can only see value in "Hard" maps for Nordr and up, since I feel that Kraken Elite maps are what I would consider suitable for a "Hard" setting. Pretty much everything that scales above Cap - 10 could have a "Hard" variant.

Eventually, this could roll into the staggered release plan that you have, since, as new gear is pushed out into the new Elites, the previous stagger could drop to these "Hard" maps. This would keep the current Elite Legendaries exclusive, but could eventually be farmed for mainstream players who can't afford millions on a top end Magma set.

[Carapace]

Would /partyi 000 still force solo runs? As many know, I enjoy doing solo runs in all elite maps, so losing this component would actually impact me more than most.

Another issue I see is loot farming. Part of what keeps the loot distribution low is this natural restriction of players in a map, and thus boss drops. If players could randomly join with maps 75% complete (aka - all the tough pulls are finished), then it would artificially inflate the number of drops occurring, which could have a negative impact on the economy.

Would it be possible for 3 map levels - Normal maps (like what they are now), Hard maps (less than Elite, but more challenging than Normal), and Elite? Obviously, this would mean coming up with appropriate drops for these "Hard" scaled maps, something better than Legendary, but not as good as the Elite Legendaries.

I think a mid-tier level of map would work out nicely, because there is a considerable population that aren't challenged by the Normal maps, but some of the Elite maps are too difficult, or they can't find suitable parties. In these cases, they can sharpen their skills in "Hard" maps, and hopefully along the way, find friends who are ready to take that next step. To be honest, I can only see value in "Hard" maps for Nordr and up, since I feel that Kraken Elite maps are what I would consider suitable for a "Hard" setting. Pretty much everything that scales above Cap - 10 could have a "Hard" variant.

Eventually, this could roll into the staggered release plan that you have, since, as new gear is pushed out into the new Elites, the previous stagger could drop to these "Hard" maps. This would keep the current Elite Legendaries exclusive, but could eventually be farmed for mainstream players who can't afford millions on a top end Magma set.

I believe /party 000 would still work yes, however the point you make about loot is also relevant. The amount of potential loot coming in would certainly be more than now, but would it be enough to offset the current loot distribution if a casual team takes an hour to complete an elite map? It's hard to say, but certainly a valid point, especially with the availability of luck for gold now through the consignment shop.

I do like your idea of a Hard mode, I will have to talk internally with some people to see if it's a viable task as the design overhead of making new items, monsters, and balancing certainly has its considerations. There is also the maintenance and upkeep with following expansions and the like to consider as well.

Thanks for the input so far, I have no doubt there will be some interesting ideas that come from the community on this.

[jlmunoz]

Only if you can invite into the map... don't want people to join freely to kill boss after you have clear the mob... too opportunistic to my taste...

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[GoodSyntax]

I believe /party 000 would still work yes, however the point you make about loot is also relevant. The amount of potential loot coming in would certainly be more than now, but would it be enough to offset the current loot distribution if a casual team takes an hour to complete an elite map? It's hard to say, but certainly a valid point, especially with the availability of luck for gold now through the consignment shop.

I do like your idea of a Hard mode, I will have to talk internally with some people to see if it's a viable task as the design overhead of making new items, monsters, and balancing certainly has its considerations. There is also the maintenance and upkeep with following expansions and the like to consider as well.

Thanks for the input so far, I have no doubt there will be some interesting ideas that come from the community on this.

Basically, I would limit the "Hard" mode to current and previous two seasons. You could even limit it to current season to save on design overhead, yet still keep your staggered release approach viable.

For whatever reason, I find Nordr elites much more difficult than Shuyal elites - which is the only reason why I suggested previous two seasons.

I don't think new items, monsters, etc, is necessary, just scale the monsters. Also, you could only introduce the worst of the Elite Legendaries into these Hard maps...such as xxx Of Grace (for Warriors), or xxx of Fatality (for Rogues), etc. That could also reduce design time effort.

[octavos]

Im throwing my 2 pesos in...I would play more "casual elites" if deaths were turned off since people do die alot anyway in elites...just having that many deaths in your stats..makes me want to NOT try elites. I don't try elites because of my OCD, and having tons of deaths just doesn't seem so appealing to me. since gold and pvp are not an issue for me, I'm as casual as it gets XD

like the 1st and correct solution
-Casual..no timer and no deaths and anyone can join (love it really ) (because they do cause many deaths anyway)
maybe throw in some drop-able potions and mana potions to help people in this "Casual Mode"

-Regular.. since this is more competitive (everything the same) including deaths listed.

[Foebegone]

Not allowing people to join elite maps is not a fair barrier, I have friends that have bad lag spikes and elites are pretty much unplayable for them as is. The idea that they should have to stick with second class loot is wrong in my opinion and very much suits players like myself who have no connection issues. The excess loot that you fear flooding that market is based on failed runs now completing? I feel that the failing runs that are due to a lag spike on a mobile phone game is kinda harsh. if the reason for the lock is just the leader boards then it has no place being there, if it is there to stop loot to people with bad connection then its working as intended. Will this allow some people to zerge elite maps? Maybe but they will be in the minority I would think.

I presume it would work like any other map in regard to /partyi 0 and party rules in general. So no problems there.

Sorry this is appallingly written, its late and I'm tired.

Sent from my device using an app.

[Nitexx]

I like option 2. Have the timed run now fall down to a non-timed run. However, that being said, and I feel this way about normal runs too, I don't think people should be able to randomly join. If this were the case, I would like to have only say guild mates be able to join, not random people coming in to partial groups that almost have a boss killed only to sit on the sidelines and collect loot.

[Bullox]

I prefer the first Solution....i dont think that will ruin the Economy, because Elites are still hard to play and not all wants to play them.

[alexdroog]

I vote for both.
Yesterday a guildie needed alpha wolf ap and got dc when alpha was half down.

[Pandamoni]

How about allowing for us to add a new party member if a current member drops out. This will keep from randoms joining, not fighting and just standing around for the look since we do not have a boot option.

I see it something like this:

I form a party, we start a map with the timer and a friend drops out. When said friend drops out due to disconnect, the timer keeps going but if our friend reconnects and rejoins then the timer stops and we go into nontimed mode. If our friend never makes it back and we stay a 3 man team, then the timer keeps going. If we decide to invite a new friend to the party, when that new friend joins our timer stops.

I would really be upset if I was running with a group, a friend disconnected, this opened the map up to some random to join our run as if it's a pug (that's how I'm reading the second option, correct me if I'm wrong) who has the potential to just stand there and wait for us to kill boss for the loot without us being able to get rid of him/her.

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm at the end of a rough day.

[faychen]

I like option 2. After the time is down, added player can be from world map and party invite so the player who dc and rejoin via invitation too. There will be a case that a player join from world map while we are going to invite our friend, I think we can simply kindly request that player to leave map.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GoodSyntax]

Not allowing people to join elite maps is not a fair barrier, I have friends that have bad lag spikes and elites are pretty much unplayable for them as is. The idea that they should have to stick with second class loot is wrong in my opinion and very much suits players like myself who have no connection issues. The excess loot that you fear flooding that market is based on failed runs now completing? I feel that the failing runs that are due to a lag spike on a mobile phone game is kinda harsh. if the reason for the lock is just the leader boards then it has no place being there, if it is there to stop loot to people with bad connection then its working as intended. Will this allow some people to zerge elite maps? Maybe but they will be in the minority I would think.

I presume it would work like any other map in regard to /partyi 0 and party rules in general. So no problems there.

Sorry this is appallingly written, its late and I'm tired.

Sent from my device using an app.

Not so much the failed runs completing, but rather solo or duo parties saying in /g "Hey, at boss...join!", so 1 or 2 drops suddenly become 4 drops - a 100% increase! That is my fear for the economy. Look at what happened with Shuyal last season. Since everyone was so well geared with upgraded Mythics, elites were incredibly easy. Imagine getting Magmatic Blades of Brutality, or Magmatic Plate of Will and realizing that they might be worth 30 or 40k in auction. That is what I worry about most.

[Yakiniku]

Honestly, Solution 1 is great. It addresses most the issues brought up regarding elites and partying up. It sastifies the hardcore time runners, and gives a free option to the casual runners.

Solution 2 is ok, but it does have its flaws. Like others have pointed out, randoms might just join in and wait for the boss to pop before even bothering to move from spawn. That's going to suck.

Inviting people to join runs that are in-progress is a nice idea, but the players already in the instance need to be locked in until they zone to a town. Otherwise, if you could zone into another elite instance on the fly, there could be some boss sharing going on.

[GoodSyntax]

If anything, I would say if a member drops out, then the map becomes an invite only run - not an opportunity for lazy PUGgers to join in just for the boss kill. This would especially drive me nuts on long maps like Rendtail, where it takes a long time to get to the boss, and just as long to kill him - the perfect opportunity for a random to just waltz in after he/she sees that all the eggs have hatched and you are in kill the boss mode.

[aarrgggggg]

Option 1 sounds the best to me. People will finally be able to run elites with pug partys and finish the map. Which is why u carapace even said it was the "ideal" fix.
Option 2 sounds like it will cause confusion and problems

Carapace you already know the right answer,it means more work for you guys but is the right solution.

[Oonova]

Not so much the failed runs completing, but rather solo or duo parties saying in /g "Hey, at boss...join!", so 1 or 2 drops suddenly become 4 drops - a 100% increase! That is my fear for the economy. Look at what happened with Shuyal last season. Since everyone was so well geared with upgraded Mythics, elites were incredibly easy. Imagine getting Magmatic Blades of Brutality, or Magmatic Plate of Will and realizing that they might be worth 30 or 40k in auction. That is what I worry about most.

I agree. I know how annoying it is to be DC in the middle of elites. However, I would rather deal with that then see the market flooded with more gear driving the prices down. Anyone who doesn't live off opening locks for their main source of gold should be concerned about this too. Thank you carapace for posting this and allowing us to voice our opinions!