Mob Scaling Findings: Higher Armour is not better

[Serancha]

Introduction

We all know mob difficulty scales both by player level and the number of players in the zone. It is widely accepted that a party of 3 is the most optimal for running most elite zones. (as relates to mob difficulty).

• If you look at the leaderboard, you will notice that 90% of the time, there are no warriors on the speed run records.
• If you are in a map with a rogue and a mage, and a warrior joins, have you ever noticed that it gets a lot harder? The run time increases?
• Have you ever wondered why Legendary and Arcane players can play the same maps without it being overly difficult for the first, and extremely easy for the second?

Well for the past 5 months I have been running tests and gathering data. These findings are consistent and conclusive. I welcome anyone to test for themselves. (Note: if you plan to test this, please do so on fully scaling maps - ie. not elite brackenridge - as the low level maps have stunted scaling that may skew results)



Summary of the testing results:
The amount of damage mobs deal and how hard they are to kill is scaled according to both the amount of armour you are wearing (number value) and the rarity level of your gear (epic, legendary, mythic, arcane).




First example: Attempting to get a mythic warrior his haunted ap last season.
We had a party of 4 and in 8 runs never managed to get faster than 1:38. I had the warrior remove his mythics and put on Hellish gear that I had available. The first run with him in the reduced armor, and we cleared the finish line at 1:26. The only thing that was different was his armor. Both the rarity and the number value were dropped significantly. This result was repeated with multiple parties.

Second example: A party of 4 in Elite Caves
This was an experienced farming team who knew the map well. Run times were always consistent (within 30 seconds). Once we had a solid base time done, we switched from mythic to legendary (Tarlok) gear. Even with the reduced damage of the legendary items on the entire party, our run times were exactly the same as when we were in full mythics.

Third Example: Solo hauntlet, no pet.
Hauntlet runs with mythics, mythic ring and talisman amulet yielded identical times as runs with tarloks with epic jewlery.
Using tarlok helm and magma armor caused death / near-death experiences.


Findings from a wide range and high number of solo tests:

Mobs hit significantly harder if you are wearing mythic or high-armour gear as opposed to normal Tarlok / Conquistador equipment.

Epic jewlery makes mob difficulty significantly lower than with mythic jewlery.

Mobs are much more difficult to kill if you are using high armour or high rarity gear (magmatic / mythic) as opposed to normal legendaries. (Conquistador / Tarlok). Example: I can one-combo kill the first witch in hauntlet in legendaries, but it usually takes an extra 2 hits in mythics.

The change in mob difficulty is so significant that it actually removes the whole damage benefit from using higher-end gear, allowing those in normal legendaries to do runs the same speed or even faster than those in full high-rarity gear.

Mixing and matching mythics and legendary is not usually great, since the only time Mythic can achieve the same run times as Legendary (with epic jewlery) is when the full set of mythics is used. If you use a partial set of mythics, you will find yourself taking a lot more damage and having more trouble killing the mobs.

To use mythic is only beneficial if all your protective gear is mythic. Using just a mythic ring or just a mythic amulet will increase the mob difficulty without increasing your damage or armor, making you need more pots and more hits to get through the map.


Conclusion:

A player wearing tarlok-like legendaries and epic jewlery will find most maps no more difficult (and in some cases easier) than running the same maps in full or partial mythics and/or magmatic gear.

The number value on armor directly affects the mob scales, meaning more armor = harder and slower runs. However you DO need high enough basic stats for survival. ie: you can not run with level 20 armor at level 41 and expect to survive. This is due to the basic scaling to character level that we are all aware of. High damage / medium # armor (like conquistador or tarlok) seem to be the best for optimizing mob difficulty.

Therefore, the new armor-heavy gear will only be useful in pvp where mob scaling is not in effect.

[Serancha]

Equipment Used for Testing:

Mythic armor & helm / upgraded 36 / full super fire gems
Tarlok of potency armor & helm / level 36 / normal fire gems
Magma doublet of will / level 40 / full super fire gems

Blood Ruby of Shuyal / level 31 / full super fire gems
Onyx loop of potency / level 41 / super fire gem

Fang of Fenrir / level 30 / 1 super fire gem / 2 normal fire gems
Wild Talisman of Potency / level 41 / full super fire gems
Gold Necklace of Potency / level 41 / super fire gem


Numbers are an average of multiple runs in each configuration.


Tinderin Wilds with Low level gyrm (Pet below level 20 so doing no damage)

Combo Elix Wilds Average times:

3:31 all mythic
3:46 - leg with mythic jewl
3:33 all legendary with epic ring
3:31 leg gear with epic jewlery
3:51 leg gear with magmatic armor and epic jewlery


Pure Wilds Average times:

4:05 Full Mythics
3:55 Tarloks with Epic Jewlery
4:08 Tarlok helm / Magma Armor / Epic Jewlery
4:12 Mythic helm / magma armor / mythic ring / talisman ammy

Stats for the 4 configs above:



-- Mixed Gear

4:04 Mythic Helm / Tarlok Body / Epic Jewlery
4:12 Mythic Body / Tarlok Helm / Epic Jewlery
3:55 Mythic set / Epic Jewlery
3:55 Mythic set / Mythic Ring / Epic Amulet
3:59 Tarlok helm / Conquistador body / epic jewlery
4:30 Epic armor / epic helm / epic jewlery

Stat differences:
Blood Ruby / Onyx Loop of Potency


Fang of Fenrir / Gold Necklace of Potency


Tarlok of Potency / Conquistador of Potency



Hauntlet Pure + Petless - Average Times

2:41 Mythic armor, helm, ring, talisman amulet
2:41 Tarlok armor, helm, epic ring and amulet
2:31 Tarlok helm, conquistador body, epic ring and amulet
3:15 (with 2 deaths) Tarlok helm / level 20 demonlord body / epic ring and amulet


Elite Caves party of 4

All runs whether mythic or legendary were between 14 and 14:30 (This was done close to the beginning of the season.)



Limits:

At level 41 mages and rogues can not go below 1000 armour, no matter what the damage is, due to the mob difficulty set by the character level. For example, a mage using 36 tarloks will not see a benefit over mythic because the armor is too low for survivability.

Using full epic (or common) armour / helm gives no benefit at all, nor does using poor quality (low damage) legendaries. This is because the damage drop on those items is higher than the item rarity mob variables. Note that the epic jewlery in the tests was the same (within 5) damage as the same items in mythic rarity.

[Maarkus]

Hi Serancha,
Thank you for this post... I was starting to think that as a warrior i was going crazy to think more armor doesnt help.
I dont have the statistics and indepth study that you have done but from my experience as a lvl41 warrior in PVE, excessive armor is not beneficial.
I have been lucky to have been able to use practically any gear i need to run PVE and after going thru a lot of gear and skill setups i have noticed that the magma gear options ingame though provides more armor and health does not help me at all in the runs... I still use my upgraded mythic sets, to be fair to most wars we all have our personal play style choice and so far going full tank isnt at all the best option in my opinion for lvl41 PVE runs.
So far the off-tank setting with atleast two skills with taunt and a balanced stat with gear that lean towards DPS and Crit for warriors at lvl41 PVE is the most effective that ive expericed so far.
I dont know if my post makes sense or helps much but in short i completely agree with you on this.
Thanks
-Maarkus

[Crowsfoot]

Really hope warriors don't misread this. I assume this relates to rogues only, testing wise.

Please do try to rephrase the abstract and conclusion to be more specific in the class tested.

---

If you are telling warriors as well that high armor is a bad idea, prepare for war.

[Serancha]

@ Marrkus

This is the reason warriors rarely get invited to runs anymore.

The focus on extreme armour levels is nothing but a detriment to the party. You need enough to survive, yes, but after that, the more you add, the harder the mobs are to kill and the slower the runs get. This is another reason sword/shield combos are frowned upon by farming teams.

So you are not insane, you were right all along!


@ Crowsfoot

Look at the example regarding the warrior getting haunted. This applies to all classes, especially warriors. And I am prepared. These tests have been 5 months in the making and included over 30 players to gather data.

[Crowsfoot]

@ Marrkus

This is the reason warriors rarely get invited to runs anymore.

The focus on extreme armour levels is nothing but a detriment to the party. You need enough to survive, yes, but after that, the more you add, the harder the mobs are to kill and the slower the runs get. This is another reason sword/shield combos are frowned upon by farming teams.


@ Crowsfoot

Look at the example regarding the warrior getting haunted. This applies to all classes, especially warriors. And I am prepared. These tests have been 5 months in the making and included over 30 players to gather data.

Any hard numbers? All I'm seeing is times to run the map.

My immediate assumption is that the higher damage caused faster runs because players were plat reviving. I know, for a fact, higher damage reduces damage in take and thus increases survival. Let me dig through my phone's notes to find my stats on damage in take.

[Serancha]

I suggest testing for yourself.

These run times are hard numbers, as they are the average of 30+ runs in each config. I don't understand what plat reviving would have to do with anything. We weren't dying.

Times are just as fast in quality legendary gear as in mythics for parties. Runs are faster when warriors are in survivable but not excessive amounts of armour. Faster = Easier and Better. That is a fact.


Note:

I should also add, that just because your 2200 armor makes YOU take less damage, it is also scaling the mobs up so your dps teammates are having to take more damage as well. Because things take longer to kill, your team has to sustain more hits, and therefore takes more overall damage.

[basketholic209]

Wow, after the damage % stacking thing (that was also found out by you, right?), I never expect to see another groundbreaking findings about a core mechanic of the game. Mind blown. Nice job, Serancha

[Serancha]

Damage stacking was Kalizza, but that contributed to this research. Thanks!

[Ardbeg]

Excellent Work, Thank You! This will Trigger a lot of Tests for Classes/Parties.
Now what to do with durable Passive again, Doom vs Wind Talisman, etc...
And it will be especially interesting to see, how the new Event Gear fits in the Picture.
We just learned to view the stats and Passives on a per Player, per class Basis, now we need to look again at it on a larger Scale, partywise for our Elite Runs.

[Doomreaper]

*sells magma gear and buys tarlok*


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[Corrupt]

Crowsfoot, there is no need for you to take his observations personally, no matter how hard it may be for you to believe. It is not your job to defend sts when glitches are made public.
This does severely alter gameplay, however it is fixable. Perhaps when they originally coded AL they did not see such depth as necessary. Players use their application for hours a day everyday it is not illogical for them to notice flaws that the sts testers did not. You are supportive of AL but please do not let that blind you.
With positive feedback they are able to fix these bugs, no need to attack people who are merely trying to fix it.

[Anyona]

So you're basically saying owning a mythic/arcane weaps is pointless and we should all be using crate weaps?

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[Serancha]

I am not certain about weapons. These tests were done for armour, helm and jewlery. We used the same weapons for all tests, to eliminate that variable. There's already so many variables that it took months to be sure of this much.

[Samhayne]

Hey guys, I will get null_void to poke into this on Monday. as far as I know, there isn't any scaling for Armor values, only number and level of your party.

[Serancha]

Thanks Sam,

Could you have him look at armor rarity also? Mythic doesn't give any apparent benefit over good legendaries, even though it has much more damage.

Appreciate it.

[Madnex]

Good job Sera! I was waiting for this one to pop up with all that background testing running.

Well, at least for rogues, the innate advantage of high-end gear is the insane critical/dodge rates which are starting to override damage/armor (criticals deal 50%+ extra damage, dodge 100% lower damage taken, in a sense). So in PvE that's the high geared rogue's advantage.


This applies to sorcerer's critical (arcane vs mythic is ~35 vs ~20) as well but it balances out with the insane damage gain (mythic mage can hope for 500-550 damage at best whilst arcane sorc is rocking 700+ (comparing with rogue where the damage difference mythic and arcane is ~520 to ~620).


But warriors? Lol, warriors seem the most cheated out on this system. So now we're basically telling them that higher armor they strived to reach --which is their main feature-- slows the whole team down. They can't really rely to damage either unless maxed out arcane. What about this class then? I know I've been skipping warrior invites in my elite runs and instead do the pulling/parking/aggro shifting myself - sure it's a few more deaths there and there but overall runs are much faster.

My personal experience with full arcane ring teams (minus my rogue nab) is that the the mobs are a lot harder to kill for a mythic player (me). Not sure if this extends to damage taken though.

[Azepeiete]

You cant base numbers off hauntlet because hauntlet times are more about skill and timing and luckthan gear. You can have a bad run in hauntlet and do 55s or a good run and do 51s. Huge diff

[Serancha]

It's not just based on hauntlet, but testing over a wide range of zones. I didn't include all the numbers because it would be an overwhelming amount of data. The fact remains, difficulty level goes way up when a high armour warrior joins, which is why they are rarely used especailly for speed runs, or even many farming runs.

[Rare]

I dunno, this is one of those things that I just can't believe. It makes no sense whatsoever that it would be the case. I'm not saying it isn't, I would just see it as a major major bug.

The whole point of getting better gear is to make things easier. Right?