Influence of forums on AL

[raw]

I'm not writing this post to complain or to flame, but rather just to raise a concern that has been bothering me for the past month or so. I'm thankful that STS allows us to voice our opinions, and that they factor those opinions into their decision making. It's something that makes this game great, and unique to other MMORPG's that I've played. However, the forums represent a small sector of the AL community (reference the 15 million installation post in the Announcement section) so the opinions stated here are not the opinions of the mass. In the past few months, I've noticed numerous updates being reverted because of forum posts. Some recent examples are:

(bad changes)
- Bulwark being released, then buffed, then de-buffed
- Halloween vanities being released as non-trade-able, then being announced that they would be trade-able
- Damage gems being released as stack-able, and then being announced that would only provide +2 damage per additional gem PER TOON
- TDM 3v3 tournament being announced as 8 teams initially, and then being extended well beyond this because of the incessant complaining that ensued afterward
- Allowing jugg and razor to be able to ignore mythic elon gun root months after it was released
- Singe being announced on insiders forums as an OP pet, then being debuffed before its release, then being buffed recently (also the false rumor that singe would be used to craft nekro, causing singe prices to shoot up past 30m)

(good changes)
- Fixing arcane maul's ability to stun whenever it procs A YEAR after it was initially released
- Arena being released and being nearly impossible, then being made somewhat possible for maxed geared players
- NativeX being taken away (albeit after a year of abuse)

Essentially I'm saying that as a customer, I expect consistency. It seems that STS, in recent times, has had many great ideas, but is simply disconnected from the community, and thus depends on the forums for feedback. And often times a decision will be made that will only benefit a few (ie making LB Halloween vanities tradeable, and now exclusive only to the rich). I'd urge STS to take their time before releasing an item, update, event, etc. and think more about it from the users perspective, and finally hold their grounds on decisions. I suggest employing more testers, and maybe having some volunteer testers from the game (ie Asphyxia) to help bridge the STS ideas - Community implementation reality gap.

ALSO one more thing. PLEASE STOP ANNOUNCING/CONFIRMING UPDATES ON FORUM CHAT BEFORE THE ACTUAL EVENT. Instead, leave some things to mystery (pending they're well thought out, of course).

ktnx.

[Zeus]

I think that STG should play the game more. This will help them understand game mechanics which code may not clearly show. Thus, they will be equally informed instead of relying on purely second hand information (which should be a supplemental source anyways!).

In other words, I am not saying for STG to stop listening to their customers but also keep in mind that a lot of customer's feedback results from game mechanic knowledge, rather, lack thereof.

[Samhayne]

Hello raw,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post your feedback.

Just as a point of interest that may help ease your mind a bit, we do play Arcane Legends too. Decisions are made on multiple data points, including: player activity (as tracked through the game), support ticket input and volume, our own experience along with forum and social media input (we maintain thriving Facebook pages, for example).

The bottom line is that Arcane Legends is a big, big game. There are many different aspects to it, and we're human too. We work hard at it, but I'm not going to say we get everything perfect. Also, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Some of the things you list as "bad changes" I wouldn't classify as such.

At the end of the day, we're very happy that you care enough about Arcane Legends to post your concerns. We hear you. We are always working hard for you and the game. Hopefully you will feel better about changes we make in the future.

Respectfully yours,
Samhyane

[Zeus]

I'm not writing this post to complain or to flame, but rather just to raise a concern that has been bothering me for the past month or so. I'm thankful that STS allows us to voice our opinions, and that they factor those opinions into their decision making. It's something that makes this game great, and unique to other MMORPG's that I've played. However, the forums represent a small sector of the AL community (reference the 15 million installation post in the Announcement section) so the opinions stated here are not the opinions of the mass. In the past few months, I've noticed numerous updates being reverted because of forum posts. Some recent examples are:

(bad changes)
- Bulwark being released, then buffed, then de-buffed
- Halloween vanities being released as non-trade-able, then being announced that they would be trade-able
- Damage gems being released as stack-able, and then being announced that would only provide +2 damage per additional gem PER TOON
All the changes for this were done before the gems were released. So, it should not affect a consumer all that much. It's the consumer's own fault if he's not up to date.
- TDM 3v3 tournament being announced as 8 teams initially, and then being extended well beyond this because of the incessant complaining that ensued afterward
I don't see how this was a problem?
- Allowing jugg and razor to be able to ignore mythic elon gun root months after it was released
Jugg and Razor do not ignore mythic elon gun root. I've tested after the patch.
- Singe being announced on insiders forums as an OP pet, then being debuffed before its release, then being buffed recently (also the false rumor that singe would be used to craft nekro, causing singe prices to shoot up past 30m)
Singe's changes were made before it was released. This is OK as it does not affect anyone. However, the singe component hoax was NOT okay. However, they did compensate consumers by buffing Singe so that it would retain value.


(good changes)
- Fixing arcane maul's ability to stun whenever it procs A YEAR after it was initially released
Maul proc still can stun lock.
- Arena being released and being nearly impossible, then being made somewhat possible for maxed geared players
- NativeX being taken away (albeit after a year of abuse)

Essentially I'm saying that as a customer, I expect consistency. It seems that STS, in recent times, has had many great ideas, but is simply disconnected from the community, and thus depends on the forums for feedback. And often times a decision will be made that will only benefit a few (ie making LB Halloween vanities tradeable, and now exclusive only to the rich). I'd urge STS to take their time before releasing an item, update, event, etc. and think more about it from the users perspective, and finally hold their grounds on decisions. I suggest employing more testers, and maybe having some volunteer testers from the game (ie Asphyxia) to help bridge the STS ideas - Community implementation reality gap.

ALSO one more thing. PLEASE STOP ANNOUNCING/CONFIRMING UPDATES ON FORUM CHAT BEFORE THE ACTUAL EVENT. Instead, leave some things to mystery (pending they're well thought out, of course).

ktnx.

I just wanted to comment/fix a few things in bolded replies.

[famousfame]

Well done raw ur quite a poet and have hit nail right on head, I don't really wana say much as you've pretty much said all, v soon forum trolls will flood post and spam sts to delete this post, seems to me it's not about what majority gamers want but what experienced forum trolls who can spin any event to suit their own needs.
P.s you missed out on sns pet as well, Lool prolly a good thing for this post as it would have been gg for sure.

[Zeus]

Well done raw ur quite a poet and have hit nail right on head, I don't really wana say much as you've pretty much said all, v soon forum trolls will flood post and spam sts to delete this post, seems to me it's not about what majority gamers want but what experienced forum trolls who can spin any event to suit their own needs.
P.s you missed out on sns pet as well, Lool prolly a good thing for this post as it would have been gg for sure.

Since we are at it


Nerfsns2014.

Developers stated that no further changes would be made for Shady & Surge. The only thing done to it was buff it in order to meet the claims Remiem stated when adverstising the pet and the patch to fix Shady & Surge's damaging banish pools.

[Samhayne]

Please keep the replies friendly.

From the forum rules: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/misc.php?do=vsarules

1. Please Respect Others.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, conflicts may arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. Debating the opinion is appropriate, however criticism against the originator of the opinion is not allowed.

[raw]

Sam, I appreciate you replying so promptly. Your passion for this game and this community is really something else. I agree that it's difficult to be perfect, all that I ask is simply try think of the ramifications of updates on the community by maybe hiring an intern, or having a group of trusted players that act as a beta tester group.

Best,

Raw

[Anarchist]

Whats wrong in saying nerf SnS if i think the pet needs to be nerfed?
@Zeus i have eyes to read what the devs said so i know already what they did say.


Back on topic, I agree partly with Raw when he says sts should take firm decisions, honestly i could predict those vanities where gonna be made tradeable after reading the first page of the complainers thread on the other hand i also understand what Sam is talkin about. Its not easy and all feedbacks are welcome.

ps@sam :
1. check ghoulish i think they are glitched(if they aren't please still confim)
2. also check crits display everytime i attack if i crit it shows me double damage o.O


#balancesns2014.

[Samhayne]

Whats wrong in saying nerf SnS if i think the pet needs to be nerfed?
@Zeus i have eyes to read what the devs said so i know already what they did say.

No need to derail. Please stay on topic, thanks!

Back on topic, I agree partly with Raw when he says sts should take firm decisions, honestly i could predict those vanities where gonna be made tradeable after reading the first page of the complainers thread on the other hand i also understand what Sam is talkin about. Its not easy and all feedbacks are welcome.

ps@sam :
1. check ghoulish i think they are glitched(if they aren't please still confim)
2. also check crits display everytime i attack if i crit it shows me double damage o.O


#balancesns2014.

We're already looking at both of those issues, thanks!

[Zylx]

The forums are meant to be a direct way for players to communicate with Spacetime. It's not hard at all to register a forum account and give feedback, if it really meant something to you.

As for all the inconsistencies, it's impossible to please everyone at once.

For example: The bulwark nerf-buff-nerf. You have rich bulwark-users getting angry about the final nerf, you have some end-game mages/rogues happy about the nerf, and then the other people getting angry about inconsistency.

Would you rather have a company that fixes the issues their customers are having, or leave them the way they are to remain "consistent"? Everyone makes mistakes. It's what they do afterwards that define their character. Spacetime focuses on their mistakes and will work to fix them for the well-being of their customers. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

As new content comes out, you are accepting the risk of any beneficial bugs/glitches that you encounter to be fixed when you use the content. If you want "consistency", then wait a while after it's been released.

It's much like buying a new device. When they first get released, they're riddled with bugs. Usually by the time the next device comes out, the bugs are fixed because their customers are discovering things that they couldnt see in the testing.

Honestly, im sick of players complaining about consistency. I'd rather have a game that is well-balanced and fair, rather than a terrible "consistent" game where nothing gets fixed.

[GoodSyntax]

I agree with most of this post. Especially on the testing end!

Perhaps I'm a bit biased since I have been here since the early days of PL, so I can remember seeing Devs in game almost every day; whereas I don't think I've ever seen Devs around in AL.

A lot the testing I see (from the LB glitches) tells me that testers are running with top gear and a /killall command, which doesn't reflect anything any player has in game. There have been many cases where I honestly question if any testing was done at all - initial arena release with super OP bosses and environmentals, archon glitches, double/triple Kroms (even though I loved that particular bug), Shaman shielding even when totem is taken out, etc. Take a look at the long list of bugs Asphynxia/Madnex is maintaining.

I think the community, for the most part, has done a great job reporting bugs, and coming up with ideas and refinements which can help this game. Unfortunately, in these forums, much as in life, the loudest, most persistent voices seem to be heard the most.

I do think that a group of players assisting STS can really help isolate many problems and concerns before it gets to a live release. These past few months have been particularly frustrating with all the second guessing, nerf/buff/nerf cycles, repeated patches and misinformation.

I am pretty committed to this game, and I would be happy to assist in a meaningful way, but I just think that if it gets to the point that players are working on the live game, that is too late in the development cycle..... I loved the test server concept, and in my opinion, a beta test with a small, vetted group of players would be very beneficial, both for the game and community at large.

Just my opinion...... I honestly don't want to bash anything, but, because I care, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

[Zeus]

I agree with most of this post. Especially on the testing end!

Perhaps I'm a bit biased since I have been here since the early days of PL, so I can remember seeing Devs in game almost every day; whereas I don't think I've ever seen Devs around in AL.

A lot the testing I see (from the LB glitches) tells me that testers are running with top gear and a /killall command, which doesn't reflect anything any player has in game. There have been many cases where I honestly question if any testing was done at all - initial arena release with super OP bosses and environmentals, archon glitches, double/triple Kroms (even though I loved that particular bug), Shaman shielding even when totem is taken out, etc. Take a look at the long list of bugs Asphynxia/Madnex is maintaining.

I think the community, for the most part, has done a great job reporting bugs, and coming up with ideas and refinements which can help this game. Unfortunately, in these forums, much as in life, the loudest, most persistent voices seem to be heard the most.

I do think that a group of players assisting STS can really help isolate many problems and concerns before it gets to a live release. These past few months have been particularly frustrating with all the second guessing, nerf/buff/nerf cycles, repeated patches and misinformation.

I am pretty committed to this game, and I would be happy to assist in a meaningful way, but I just think that if it gets to the point that players are working on the live game, that is too late in the development cycle..... I loved the test server concept, and in my opinion, a beta test with a small, vetted group of players would be very beneficial, both for the game and community at large.

Just my opinion...... I honestly don't want to bash anything, but, because I care, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

I nominate Good to be a content tester! He's one of the most morally standup guys that I know!

[BaronB]

I to have to agree with some of the concerns being voiced from this post, especially about the forum influence of changes being made to game content.

Only however in the sense of whilst content is in development, of course a customer/gamers opinions matter but they should be heard in relation to what has already been developed and handed out to people to play with. Its never a good idea to have any group vetted or not of players in a game submitting changes to any content developers are making purely because of the unfair advantages it would give that group of players over everyone else.

When content is made it should be tested out by developers or group of moderators, if they are happy with the initial results then release it to everyone. This keeps it fair as Devs/Mods would never have anything gain or lose from the outcome and only trying to keep the majority happy with unbiased decisions.

If groups of players are brought into development stage of any content it is INEVITABLE they will influence any outcome towards the benefits of themselves and friends in game. Thus doing so, making the game unfair as a minority of players in relation to everyone else that plays.

Of course if there are any bugs in the released content then by all means posts with explanations detailing flaws, then be tested out by Dev/Mods and problem addressed. A poll thread might be a great idea, giving everyone in the community a chance to vote on how good the new content is and post any opinions or ideas they might have. This way general community has a say on the content that's already been submitted with good ideas will catch like wildfire that might cause changes. This also stops a select group of players opinions influenced the change of content before its even been released to the general public.


Only advantages a player should have in game is if they spend money on platinum to be able to buy this like gold / open locked chests / vanities / elixer kits /ect because end of the day Servers / (All the great people at STS) / Advertising / Bills are not going to come free or pay for themselves. Any other advantages should come from a players knowledge of game, their experience in playing, keeping uptodate from the sneak peaks given in social media outreach and most importantly what they will learn from other players in game.

Like alot of others posting before just want to keep the game fair and fun whilst ever increasing its epicness over time but things like the launch of this Halloween event to me was absolutely heart breaking. No official announcement, no exciting last 15 mins rush before update that pops up, it was available on android first fora while before apple users and chrome users later on could access it. Just absolutely rushed out for some reason without it going under proper testing. I would have happily like so many waited a extra day or two to make sure all the creases were ironed out, however what's done is done now unfortunately there is no time machine to go back in but we can choose which future to go to.


I personally don't regret a penny I have paid towards this game so far and I never will, I only hope my contributions do at least help towards looking after the staff well.



One <3
B

[famousfame]

I to have to agree with some of the concerns being voiced from this post, especially about the forum influence of changes being made to game content.

Only however in the sense of whilst content is in development, of course a customer/gamers opinions matter but they should be heard in relation to what has already been developed and handed out to people to play with. Its never a good idea to have any group vetted or not of players in a game submitting changes to any content developers are making purely because of the unfair advantages it would give that group of players over everyone else.

When content is made it should be tested out by developers or group of moderators, if they are happy with the initial results then release it to everyone. This keeps it fair as Devs/Mods would never have anything gain or lose from the outcome and only trying to keep the majority happy with unbiased decisions.

If groups of players are brought into development stage of any content it is INEVITABLE they will influence any outcome towards the benefits of themselves and friends in game. Thus doing so, making the game unfair as a minority of players in relation to everyone else that plays.

Of course if there are any bugs in the released content then by all means posts with explanations detailing flaws, then be tested out by Dev/Mods and problem addressed. A poll thread might be a great idea, giving everyone in the community a chance to vote on how good the new content is and post any opinions or ideas they might have. This way general community has a say on the content that's already been submitted with good ideas will catch like wildfire that might cause changes. This also stops a select group of players opinions influenced the change of content before its even been released to the general public.


Only advantages a player should have in game is if they spend money on platinum to be able to buy this like gold / open locked chests / vanities / elixer kits /ect because end of the day Servers / (All the great people at STS) / Advertising / Bills are not going to come free or pay for themselves. Any other advantages should come from a players knowledge of game, their experience in playing, keeping uptodate from the sneak peaks given in social media outreach and most importantly what they will learn from other players in game.

Like alot of others posting before just want to keep the game fair and fun whilst ever increasing its epicness over time but things like the launch of this Halloween event to me was absolutely heart breaking. No official announcement, no exciting last 15 mins rush before update that pops up, it was available on android first fora while before apple users and chrome users later on could access it. Just absolutely rushed out for some reason without it going under proper testing. I would have happily like so many waited a extra day or two to make sure all the creases were ironed out, however what's done is done now unfortunately there is no time machine to go back in but we can choose which future to go to.


I personally don't regret a penny I have paid towards this game so far and I never will, I only hope my contributions do at least help towards looking after the staff well.



One <3
B

Started reading but gave up after 2nd paragraph (too long), but I agree with u no beta testers wanted or needed from game community.

[GoodSyntax]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. We collectively beta tested the new arena. Our general comments were:

1) Why are Noble/Shade/Architect dropping and popping out of arena chests.
2) It is kind of easy.

The result: We got an insanely difficult, over the top arena, where everyone, including top geared pros said whoa! And, not to mention the same gear which was supposedly going to be removes dropping like rain and devaluing the arena experience.

Something as simple as this could have and should have been corrected before it ever went live....not after people like me spent hundreds of plat to discover all the flaws.

[BaronB]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. We collectively beta tested the new arena. Our general comments were:

1) Why are Noble/Shade/Architect dropping and popping out of arena chests.
2) It is kind of easy.

The result: We got an insanely difficult, over the top arena, where everyone, including top geared pros said whoa! And, not to mention the same gear which was supposedly going to be removes dropping like rain and devaluing the arena experience.

Something as simple as this could have and should have been corrected before it ever went live....not after people like me spent hundreds of plat to discover all the flaws.

Actually we seem to be far from disagreement as a beta test server that was done on such a mass scale like last time is fantastic.

I can understand something like this couldn't be done across all platforms but still gives a third of users a chance to participate rather then say between a selection of just 2-3 % of people.


sorry posted before finishing,

With the flaws that was later found was because chances are the game wasnt tested again properly like it should have been after the feed back was given , changes where implemented then released. if anything should have gone onto private servers for mods and devs to play around with then released.

Lets not forget in test server everyone could buy pretty much anything, so people were saying arena was easy because they were using gear they didn't have in the actual game.

[GoodSyntax]

Actually we seem to be far from disagreement as a beta test server that was done on such a mass scale like last time is fantastic.

I can understand something like this couldn't be done across all platforms but still gives a third of users a chance to participate rather then say between a selection of just 2-3 % of people.


sorry posted before finishing,

With the flaws that was later found was because chances are the game wasnt tested again properly like it should have been after the feed back was given , changes where implemented then released. if anything should have gone onto private servers for mods and devs to play around with then released.

Lets not forget in test server everyone could buy pretty much anything, so people were saying arena was easy because they were using gear they didn't have in the actual game.

I agree, and that's where the beta test failed. I, personally did not get a ring or any other items that I did not already possess. I tried to make it an honest beta test, and my feedback was given based on what I expected to encounter when it went live.

And frankly, all it would have taken was a couple of testers in party, with upper-midrange gear to run the arena to learn almost immediately that the arena was to difficult.

Remiem can arrest to how much plat, how many revenges, and how difficult it was to complete a single run, since she was in party with me. I'm no noob fresh off the street..... I do have a fair amount of experience with arena and elites, and my gear is about as good as it gets (minus the ring). If me and my party, whom are all top geared, with lots of timed run, elite and arena experience struggled, I struggle to understand how it could have been "tested" and approved.

The Bulwark curse thing also should have been discovered in PvP testing as well. We're not taking about unusual, sequence of event issues, but core gameplay and mechanics. One PvP match probably would have brought that to light.

I mean, I enjoy research and all, and I did enjoy the research involved in discovering the buff/debuff stacking issues, but these are problems that are actually costing me plat. At some point, if it is actually costing ME money to discover or prove issues, well I have a problem that, which is why I suggested having players play a role in testing BEFORE it goes live.

[BaronB]

I agree, and that's where the beta test failed. I, personally did not get a ring or any other items that I did not already possess. I tried to make it an honest beta test, and my feedback was given based on what I expected to encounter when it went live.

And frankly, all it would have taken was a couple of testers in party, with upper-midrange gear to run the arena to learn almost immediately that the arena was to difficult.

Remiem can arrest to how much plat, how many revenges, and how difficult it was to complete a single run, since she was in party with me. I'm no noob fresh off the street..... I do have a fair amount of experience with arena and elites, and my gear is about as good as it gets (minus the ring). If me and my party, whom are all top geared, with lots of timed run, elite and arena experience struggled, I struggle to understand how it could have been "tested" and approved.

The Bulwark curse thing also should have been discovered in PvP testing as well. We're not taking about unusual, sequence of event issues, but core gameplay and mechanics. One PvP match probably would have brought that to light.

I mean, I enjoy research and all, and I did enjoy the research involved in discovering the buff/debuff stacking issues, but these are problems that are actually costing me plat. At some point, if it is actually costing ME money to discover or prove issues, well I have a problem that, which is why I suggested having players play a role in testing BEFORE it goes live.

If there is a legitimate case that a bug has cost you plats at its expenses then you sir should be compensated back or at least reimbursed.

The case of group of players being involved in the development of anything in this game is a terrible idea as its leaves to much room for biased decisions.

Simply put its about avoiding this ...

Guildchat - " hey guys i just finished helpin testin de new bulwak an they gona nerf the hell out, so sell it quick high price before they announce it n prices go down but shh shhhs hshh"

I appreciate what your saying tho and it is a great idea usually to have some players join in to make changes to a game. ArcaneLegends however isnt just some solo fps game, its a game that revolves mass socializing and so why a outside party with no relation to people in game will always make the fairest choices in trying to please everyone without some people ending up with more rice in their bowls so to speak =)

[Niixed]

My feeling is that STS would already have a small army of eager beta testers if there weren't some obstacles to overcome first. Whatever they are, may Team STS overcome them expeditiously. Bringing more consistency to new content/item releases would further stabilize AL on every front.