daggers, talons and bows

[thatboyderek]

i'm currently a level 50 dexbird and have been using a dagger for its higher DPS than a bow plus the extra stats I'd get for using a wing. My current equipment is raptorhide helm of fortune/metallic stiletto of destiny/raptorhide armor of fortune/tricksters wing of fortune/no ring/hooch hat. my stats are dex 276 / hit 128 / crit 18/ dodge 13/ dps 303/ armor 86. I was wondering if bows or talons had some hidden feature that actually made them stronger than a dagger or if daggers were just actually the strongest choice because they're not ranged

[Luchta]

This is a simple hierarchy of a birds rank in a group. Archers (bow users) make the most damage sacrificing health. Ninjas (talon users) are somewhat in the middle since they sacrifice damage for neutral stats to survive longer. Palladins (sword/dagger users) sacrifice both damage and dex for more health since they are the front liners in a group. Can you imagine dagger users being at the back of a party? I guess not. So putting everything into dex while being a close range damage isn't really the ideal build. At least that's the way I see it.

[Physiologic]

Use a bow or a gun. Daggers make you too vulnerable to enemy attacks.

[Nightarcher]

Use a bow or a gun. Daggers make you too vulnerable to enemy attacks.

Agreed. Weapon range : survivability. And when you take into account harder enemies' armor, daggers lose a lot of their damage output.

[Moogerfooger]

Daggers' high DPS looks nice, but when you factor in that the average damage per hit is lower than all talons and bows, you really aren't doing anywhere near 303 DPS when you take armor into effect.

I'll make up an super-simple-not-how-it-completely-is example, and not take buffs, crit or anything into account...these numbers are completely made up. Yes, armor debuffs would improve these numbers across the board, but this is just a pretend example.

Pretend an enemy has an armor score of 50.

Dagger: 290 DPS, weapon speed 0.4, damage 64-68 (avg dmg 66): You will get 2.5 hits per second, but only do 16*2.5 = 40 real damage per second, accounting for armor.

Talon: 230 DPS, weapon speed 0.6, damage 137-144 (avg dmg 140): You get 1.67 hits per second, doing 90*1.67 = 150 real damage per second, accounting for armor

Bow: 260 DPS, weapon speed 1.0, avg dmg 220-260 (avg dmg 240): You get 1.0 hits per second, doing 190*1.0 = 190 real damage per second, accounting for armor.

This is totally made up, does not take crit and especially debuffs into account; heavy debuffs would raise the dagger's real damage a lot...just trying to show how DPS is not a true indicator of how much damage a weapon really does.

Can anyone explain this better than me?

[BeefyMeat]

Crits make it even a better case for guns and bows. Both offer higher base damage, which is the basis for your crit damage. Critical hits on 68 is a lot less than critical on 260. Also, range helps keep you out of danger, which a dagger puts you right in the middle of.

[Moogerfooger]

Also, range helps keep you out of danger, which a dagger puts you right in the middle of.

Agreed....excellent point, forgot to mention that.

[thatboyderek]

I don't ever have a problem about enemies hitting me because they usually don't. I was just trying to see the reason why daggers always had a higher dps than a bow. Is their a real damage formula I could use? I have a sunblessed bow of the void/metallic stiletto of destiny/laser talon of the void would they be put in that order with the sunblessed bow of the void doing the highest damage and laser talon doing the least.

sunblessed 135-180 (157) average damage - 50 enemy's armor, doing 107*1.15 = 123.05 real damage
laser talon 66-73 (70) 20*1.67 = 33.4
stiletto 62-65 (64) 14*2.5 = 35

[Moogerfooger]

I don't ever have a problem about enemies hitting me because they usually don't. I was just trying to see the reason why daggers always had a higher dps than a bow. Is their a real damage formula I could use? I have a sunblessed bow of the void/metallic stiletto of destiny/laser talon of the void would they be put in that order with the sunblessed bow of the void doing the highest damage and laser talon doing the least.

sunblessed 135-180 (157) average damage - 50 enemy's armor, doing 107*1.15 = 123.05 real damage
laser talon 66-73 (70) 20*1.67 = 33.4
stiletto 62-65 (64) 14*2.5 = 35

I think Royce has the actual formula, or figured out something pretty close to what it is...hopefully he will see this and shed some light on it.

[adwin]

The only reason someone would need to fool around with stilettos is for the bleed proc.
Then again, this has no place in high level, and especially timed, battles (roach, goblin king). Although I'm curious how that would've worked out.
The stiletto user should be safe, since he won't be dealing damage near any range to gain aggro.

Still, more of a play thing instead of fast, serious gaming.

[Physiologic]

I don't ever have a problem about enemies hitting me because they usually don't. I was just trying to see the reason why daggers always had a higher dps than a bow. Is their a real damage formula I could use? I have a sunblessed bow of the void/metallic stiletto of destiny/laser talon of the void would they be put in that order with the sunblessed bow of the void doing the highest damage and laser talon doing the least.

sunblessed 135-180 (157) average damage - 50 enemy's armor, doing 107*1.15 = 123.05 real damage
laser talon 66-73 (70) 20*1.67 = 33.4
stiletto 62-65 (64) 14*2.5 = 35

Effective damage = Average damage - enemy armor

Effective DPS = Effective damage / weapon speed

Wearing only a Stiletto 62-65 damage, 0.4 speed and being a full dex lv 55 archer --> Damage 111-114, DPS 281

Shown DPS = 112.5 / 0.4 = 281 DPS

Effective DPS (if enemy armor is 50) = 62.5 / 0.4 = 156.25 effective DPS

See here for more examples of DPS calculations.