These are great ideas that we all heard before, BUT it still wouldn't change much, because you can still create an ALL ROG group that can still constantly revived after every death. (example....ARENA)Originally Posted by Excuses
These are great ideas that we all heard before, BUT it still wouldn't change much, because you can still create an ALL ROG group that can still constantly revived after every death. (example....ARENA)
But at least, tanks will get pt. Not abandoned.
People don't want to have warrior in pt because they slow down the runs. So tanks need more armor reducion buff or pt buff.
Making map harder won't stop 4 rogues pt when they can use ankh and tank die with them too.
We need more fundamental solution for tanks to make them more useful in pve.
That's my point.
One thing dps pt hate is when all pt dies together and reset the boss. If boss should be stronger so dps can't survive without a tank, tank should be able to do something because tank won't be able to bear the dmg too. That's cs upgrade, cancel boss wind up attack.
Honestly rogue has too much hp/armor comparing their dmg. But I don't want to say 'take it away' but rather say 'buff tanks to be useful'
Last edited by Excuses; 05-12-2015 at 02:45 PM.
Aegis
New solution -
Let warriors equip dex gear
I'd love to see a warrior with a elo bow
Actually I'm inviting warriors at my party(s), Why?
Cause everyone should play at this game, let's keep this game friendly and let's show some love to our friend tanks and smurfs
ING: Valkiryas - Alassien
The point here is that if you look at the roles of the three classes, you see Rogue = fast single target kills, Sorcerers = Crowd control and DoT, Warriors = tanks/healers? Two of these classes have obvious benefits in a PvE environment, while one honestly cannot contribute as much. Sure, a really skilled tank will make runs easier for you, but they rarely make runs faster. This game has evolved to the point where time = money, so the more time you spend on a map, the less money you make, or the more money you need to spend. There is no extra reward for efficiency or team dynamics, so what ends up happening is whatever party type is fastest becomes the most desirable.
Here is my rating system on the three classes in the ten primary areas of PvE that I find important
Single Target Damage: How well you can damage a single mob/boss
Group Damage: How well you can inflict damage on a group of mobs at once
Aggro Control: How well you can generate and maintain aggro
Target Control: How well can you control a single mob
Group Control: How well can you control a pack of mobs
Player Buff: How potent your self-buff abilities are
Party Buff: How potent your party buffs are
Target Debuff: How effective your single-target debuffs are
Group Debuff: How effective your group debuffs are
Damage Control: How well you can absorb or better yet, avoid receiving damage
ROGUES:
Rogues are the undisputed single-target killing machines in the game. This class has extremely effective target debuffs and player buffs, coupled with the highest single target damage is the reason why Rogues are efficient killing machines. Rogues, while not very good at mob control do have the ability to avoid some of the damage and possess enough Armor/HP to pot through the damage that they do receive. Unfortunately, without any shielding capabilities, do die more than average.
Single Target Damage: Best. Without question, the best class in the game!
Group Damage: Average. Nox poison, bleed from Traps and Razor all doing AoE damage.
Aggro Control: Above Average. Rogues can generate a lot of aggro, especially in blender builds with Razor, Traps and Daggers. The high damage and high DPS can pull aggro at any time it seems.
Target Control: Terrible. No single target control mechanism.
Group Control: Below Average. Effective, but unreliable group control with traps that pull.
Player Buff: Best. One of the most effective self-buffing mechanism in game! Crit stacking plus 250% damage on crit from Aimed Shot is the reason why Rogues are the best single target killers.
Party Buff: Above Average. Shadow Veil (when properly upgraded) is a powerful party buff.
Target Debuff: Best. Aimed Shot, with it's armor debuff, is powerful and scales well to endgame.
Group Debuff: Average. Shadow veil does offer some hit % debuff, and bleed does stack, which is why Trap builds are becoming more popular.
Damage Control: Average. Above average armor and HP, along with very good Dodge all contribute.
SORCERERS:
Sorcerers are masters of crowd control, AoE damage and DoT. This class does not offer much in the way of buffs/debuffs, but, in the proper hands, can effectively keep many mobs in a permanent root/stun/freeze/knock-down cycle, which helps with survivability. Unfortunately, being a low armor/low dodge class, hits tend to do more damage than expected, but, this is somewhat offset by a very powerful shield. In my opinion, a shield is too much of a compromise, since it reduces your total skill damage output by 25%, so the best elite runners I know run without the shield.
Single Target Damage: Average. Lightning being the most potent attack, but single target isn't the primary role of the class.
Group Damage: Best. Clock and Fire are the bread-and-butter of the class and these two skills in particular have a large area of effect.
Aggro Control: Average. For whatever reason, Sorcs tend to generate a lot of aggro, likely from the continuous DoT.
Target Control: Best. Ice is the best single target control ability in game.
Group Control: Best. With large AoE skills and lots of stun/root/knockdowns, Sorcs are the best class for crowd control.
Player Buff: Below Average. Gale (with its Armor and Speed upgrades) is probably the only player buff I can think of.
Party Buff: Terrible. No party buff that I can think of (unless you consider Heal a party buff).
Target Debuff: Below Average. None of the skill upgrades are worthwhile except for Curse.
Group Debuff: Below Average. None of the skill upgrades are worthwhile except for Curse.
Damage Control: Below Average. Many builds have high HP coupled with Shield and/or Gale. Generally, without Shield or Gale, Sorcs rely on high-ish HP, but the low armor leads to a lot of one hit deaths.
WARRIORS:
Warriors primary role of tanking is reflected in their skills; they are terrific aggro controllers, and have great survivability, but their ability to deal damage and debuff in any appreciable way is simply not there.
Single Target Damage: Terrible. Even though some tanks have extremely high DMG, the skill damage is very weak.
Group Damage: Average. Windmill and Smash are AoE type attacks, and with the primary role of Warriors as a tanker, these two skills can do reasonable damage.
Aggro Control: Best. This class has taunt upgrades on most skills.
Target Control: Below Average. The only real single target control skill is Axe Throw, and even that has limited usefulness.
Group Control: Terrible. Tanks excel at grouping up mobs, not controlling them. Stuns from Smash are very unreliable.
Player Buff: Best. Juggernaut and VB are two of the best player buffs in game!
Party Buff: Average. Rally Cry (for those that actually use it) has a large radius and reasonably long active time.
Target Debuff: Average. Feebling is really the only target debuff available, which helps with the tanking role, but doesn't add to faster runs.
Group Debuff: Terrible. No group debuff skills.
Damage Control: Best. High HP, high armor means tanks are really tough to bring down in PvE. There are very few windup attacks in game that can one hit a properly geared tank.
So, looking at this analysis, it is clear that what is missing in the game is a potent group debuff ability. Rogues excel at single target buff/debuff/kills. Sorcerers excel at crowd control, AoE and DoT. Tanks excel at what? Being a punching bag? Let's make the Warrior class a Tank and Debuff juggernaut! Extend the benefit of VB to the entire party, add Feeble and some form of armor reduction skill upgrade to debuff groups of mobs! This will make tanks a desirable class to have in party as it not only helps with efficiency, but it also will not significantly increase run time!
AL: Kalizzaa
Retired Officer of <Elite Runners>
Elite Chronicles: Solo guides for elite maps - No longer maintained
I bascially agree with what you said lol. BUT it wont make that much of a differences if REVIVED/ANKH is still available to be use. (It needs to be limited to say maybe 1-3 revived/per Elite maps). Then and only then, will you have a group that will consists of wars or mages in group that will use teamwork to survived more instead of trying to do the fastest time in elite with really no risk at all if you can constantly revived.
EVEN if War gets skills upgrade, most rogs will still form rogue group to run elite maps as long as you can still REVIVED/Ankh in your run.
Like i said, i agree with you mostly, but it wont fixed the grouping much until that is change.
I don't care about 1% of rogues being 4 rogues pt and spend thier 10 times more money on ankhs to run 30 sec faster. (right now it's of course more than 30sec tho)
But those changes will help most of tanks to get more pt invites. If most of rogue think they need tanks and tanks are helping runs better, not slowing down and save ankh, I will be happy.
That's the point of this thread I believe.
Aegis
I guess you really don't understand my post.
Here let me put it in a way where hopefully you can understand.
1. Even if Tanks gets upgraded skills (Which i agree with you they should) (This will probably create and xtra 1-5% war is needed more). But that small % wont make that much of a difference. Most People who plays rogues still preferred to group with other rogues for faster runs.
----IMO: LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF REVIVED/ANKH being use: This will make any decent WAR/MAGE to be more desirable in group. This will pretty much stop All rogue groups because if they use up all their revived, running back to the boss takes time ....hence, WAR/Mage will be more desirable than they currently are.
2. When doing Elite maps with limited REVIVED/ANKH, it will also Retains the value of the LOOTS being drop by bosses (or future bosses). Then you will have constant farmers that are willing to run Elite more. As of now, most LOOTS are worthless in majority of Most Elite Maps, because its toooooooooooooooo easy to get with constant REVIVED/ANKH. This way, it will make the GAME REPLAYBILITY as a whole to last longer than it currently is at this moment in time, where everyone is bored to death because nothing is new or worth farming.
3. I knew those ANKH, when it was introduce will be a downfall for STS, because, yes in the short term, it will make them $$$ real fast, but it will destroy the game. If they limit Ankh, like i said in elite maps, it will preserved the longevity of the game and they still makes $$$ in the long run. Any business knows this, the longer the game last the more $$$ they make in the long run.
To Summerized, what i just said, Limit the Ankh/Revived usage in Elite Contents, will get more War / Mage in group. And at the same time, STS will make more $$$ in the long run.
I do understand what you are talking about.
You are the one misunderstanding mine.
I didn't say anything about what you said but actually just added details about what I said. I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I quoted your comments just because you quoted mine too and to make my point clear.
Maybe one point we don't agree is the result of warrior upgrade will make.
If I comment on your idea about ankh, I will say it's a bad idea for regular gear players. Only few % of players can run without dying so much like that. This will discourage most of player if it's impossible to finish elite runs.
And in fact, those 0.1% rogues don't spend bunch of ankh like you imagine in elite maps. They have sns and nekro.
My point is to make whole tanks and pve experience better, not exactly prevent dps to make pt with 4 rogues.
Like I said, I don't care if rogues still play with 4 rogues because it's faster. But the difference between 4 rogues and 1 tank + 3 rogues should smaller. Like I said, if they have to use 10 times more ankh to run 30 sec faster, it's their choice. But right now is they use almost same amount of ankh with half to double faster time.
So tank should have more debuff/buff t make the runs faster. And protect pt better to make the run easier. This is what I'm trying to say.
You said 'EVEN if War gets skills upgrade, most rogs will still form rogue group to run elite maps as long as you can still REVIVED/Ankh in your run'.
I understand few % will do. I'm speaking for the other 99.9 of players. Warrior upgrade will make most of people happier in pve.
Hope you understand my point.
Last edited by Excuses; 05-12-2015 at 05:19 PM.
Aegis
The other issue with limiting the ankhs is that OP rogues don't die as much as Legendary tanks. I think Sera mentioned it earlier, I actually die more when a tank is in my party. Go figure. It's relatively common that I don't die in an arena with an OP rogue party and most of us are just on autopilot anyway. Maybe a death here and there, but generally not much.
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Exatly.
Rogues can taunt boss to each other.
Less running time means fewer chance to die.
Rogues don't have to move a lot like tank has to, resulting spawn too many mobs. (especially stahl in arena)
Proper timed nekro aa will prevent most of 1 hit kills.
People run with 4 rogues for reason.
Aegis
Also proximity curse presents inconveniences when it lands on a tank. He really has to just sit out bc he doesn't have many ranged skills and standing on the boss prevents rogues from piercing.
Of course this only happens in arena.
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the longer the run, the more chances to get onehitted, attacked by environment, ...
even the best tanks cannot take care of all threats. but all tanks prolonge the runs and add chances for this deaths to occur.
the new axe throw helped a lot with this by reducing the runtime (please give it a try, it really is a great buff!), but isn t sufficient alone.
Exatly why I ask armor reducion on jugg.
Aegis
Agree with Kalizzaa post... Each class should complement each other. IMO.. the class is balance when a party run faster map with 1 tank, 1 sorc, 2 rogue or 1 tank, 2 sorc, 1 rogue, with avarage gear.
[Newcomx, Newcomy, & Newcomz]
I don't understand why you always, said the exception. Look at the bigger picture. There will always be exception to everything.
Even with war upgrades, there will still be more rog groups, as long as ankh/revived is use up like water. Now if u limit that, then u will have more group. consist of war.
Now isn't that ur point is to have war in group?
Btw, u contradict urself. Base on if and when war gets upgrade....read your own word from the quote above. 'People run with 4 rogues for a reason'
Everyone go make a rogue , problem solved .
Then why is a warrior and mage class in the game.
Give mage a skill ( can use curse) that increases warrior damage 200% or debuff mob armor by 35% ( PVE) only
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