Mage buff._.

[Bluebatthing]

My comment is completely off-topic and I apologize for that.

I just wanted to say in regards to shadow piercer, that the number of rogues who don't know and/or want to believe how much damage piercer actually adds is staggering.

I think most rogues know about the aim nox pierce combo, but are reluctant to use it on elite bosses due to gear not able to withstand being one-shotted.

Apologies for going off topic.

[Edward Coug]

Maybe a minute(which turned to 45 seconds pretty quickly in that post) for you... Pretty sure everyone I know support having a 3/1 party because it can speed runs up by more than just 1 min, at the very least I would say 3 minutes averagely. Idk how this got into ur post... Accepting the fact that arena is an exclusive rogue area is not helping your case.

This is not about time but the efficiency of the runs and how much difficulty finding a decent rogue is. Most of the rogues I've been running with have decent gear, maybe one arcane pet full mythic rogue in party.

Third point is just hogwash. Rare to find good warriors, I use up the same number of ankhs whether its a 3/1 or a 2/1/1 party.

Pink rogue>fully geared mage

Not going to happen.

Not sure. Then again this arguement isnt about PvP at endgame.

-The time difference didn't change. Read it again, this time more closely. Please tell me what your fastest T3 run is with your friends (which is not an all rogue party). Is it way faster than 8:30? I'm guessing it isn't. The point hidden in here is that with two rogues shadow-piercing the boss, a warrior stunning, and a mage handling the vines, you're not going to be much slower than an all rogue team (45 second difference for me).

-I'm agreeing with you about Arena. I'm trying to lay out all of the facts to show a complete picture, not build a case by hiding important details. Arena is definitely made for all rogue parties. It's beyond stupid that warriors can be one hit by the Arena bosses and can't hold aggro. Mages are so much more useful than warriors in Arena, but they still clearly play second fiddle. In total agreement.

-OK. This makes more sense. In your post, you compared a pink rogue with a max-geared rogue. That's why I was confused. I still don't agree with it, but oh well. Please make a rogue with an alias. Don't tell your friends. I'll donate all the pink gear. Try to run T3 and let me know how overpowered rogues are. I think you'll have a new perspective.

-PVP is relevant because it flips the pyramid. But if you don't want to talk about PvP because you stick to PvE, I get it. PvP isn't for everyone.

[yubaraj]

Zeus and e'dria,

I am not experienced player as you guys are in Endgame PVP. If you say mage is OP in endgame [clash not vs] then I will accept that. But I don't think it's the same case in twink level.

I don't wanna argue more but I will say same thing again. Rogue damage output and mages shield , I will take these in equivalent aspect. The thing I have been complaining about is mages lifegiver skill compare to rogue health pack and warrior's juggernaut.Everyone knows that lifegiver skill is so underpowered in comparison to rogue and warrior healing skill. And I am against giving rogue their damage back because its gonna be one shot kill if they get more damage.

[Alejandros]

Mages need a boost at twinking lv pls no one can denay that mages twinks below lv 31 have a ridiculous heal % while rogues have more than 100% heal in all packs and tanks have 5ticks of insane heal plus a 3 second inmunity(even more than mages shield) so maybe if STS change heal skill for mages will be really apreciated maybe make it like 80%hp or something. Ty

[Imobster]

Back to what I said, there's mages who are op, I've never seen a Mage at end game I'm just stating that at low levels mages are basically not even useful, I've had rogues that don't have 4 times less of my health and damage and they still so how magically manage to 1 hit me .

[Tatman]

Maybe a minute(which turned to 45 seconds pretty quickly in that post) for you... Pretty sure everyone I know support having a 3/1 party because it can speed runs up by more than just 1 min, at the very least I would say 3 minutes averagely.

Now, now. You sure love exaggerating. I can show you a tank/mage/rogue/rogue party with consistent 8-9 minutes PT3 times, screenshots are somewhere here on one of the contest threads (Tour of Arlor I think). No arcane rings, only one arcane pet as far as I remember. I'd like you to show me a similarly geared all rogue party (or 3 rogues, 1 mage - whichever you prefer) doing 5-6 minutes on average.

[Cray]

There were timers on during the contest so people didn't scale

[Edward Coug]

Now, now. You sure love exaggerating. I can show you a tank/mage/rogue/rogue party with consistent 8-9 minutes PT3 times, screenshots are somewhere here on one of the contest threads (Tour of Arlor I think). No arcane rings, only one arcane pet as far as I remember. I'd like you to show me a similarly geared all rogue party (or 3 rogues, 1 mage - whichever you prefer) doing 5-6 minutes on average.

My guess is that Avikk's average runs are longer than he'd care to admit. I can tell you what you need to do to speed them up.

-Believe it or not, your rogues are slowing you down. Tell them to shadow-pierce the boss, if their gear allows it. (If their gear is good enough to do this but they are worried about dying, tell them to play as a mage or warrior. It's far cheaper.) Have the weakest rogue stun the boss. (Or invite a warrior. Won't sacrifice much time. I promise.)

-You have to handle the vines by yourself. No excuses. Breeze helps.

-If you really want to speed up your runs and are feeling beastly, don't skip the hard mobs. Kill everything (excluding the parked giants) that is on the way to the boss. That way, you don't have to go into the side room to the left of the boss room.

-You can also shave a tiny bit of time off your run by leaving your lep in your inventory. I get far more elite planar chests without it, anyway. (Although I rerolled into a locked the other day without a lep equipped zzzzzz.)

If you after doing this, you beat my 8:30 2 rogue, 1 mage, 1 war T3 run with your 3 rogue, 1 mage party (no elixirs of course), let me be the first to congratulate you.

[Tatman]

Timers were on for Tombs during that week of ToA. I'm too lazy to search through that monstrous thread, but I will, if avikk accepts the challenge. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I can do a 7-minute run with the same tank/mage/rogue/rogue party now, as we have all geared up since then. But then avikk will have to beat the current lb record to prove his point. Ok, end of offtopic.

[Wazakesy]

If we are all going to compare stats, ill have you stat throwing people know ive seen rogues with 900+ damage and 5k hp and 1.7k armour... Seen rogues with 1.4k dps too.... Stats prove nothing much really.

The rogue skill set is OP, this can be seen everywhere fromwether if be in PvE or PvP all across the level brackets... Thats the main concern here. Rogues have a swt of skills which faaaaaaaaaaaar outlaps the other two classes.

I'd like to see a rogue like that. 900 damage? Ive only seen rogues less than 845 damage and 900+ damage is usually an elixir most of the time. Im just too curious to see if a rogue with the stats you have mentioned exist WITHOUT AN ELIXIR.

[Wazakesy]

everyone made a rogue and left their warriors when rogue was op now lets make a mage and name this game mage legends...then when warriors get op we will name it warrior legends and all will be warriors

name it as buff/nerf legends, suits it better than cycle legends...

[Madnex]

I'd like to see a rogue like that. 900 damage? Ive only seen rogues less than 845 damage and 900+ damage is usually an elixir most of the time. Im just too curious to see if a rogue with the stats you have mentioned exist WITHOUT AN ELIXIR.

That's impossible. 790 damage and barely 5k HP is about the limit without elix and it requires either sns or nekro to achieve. We're talking about 5-6 paras+ and the rest, eyes.

Maximum non elix damage is about 850 with full para but that's no longer a possibility. Atm, best you'll find is below 840 and that's with a huge HP loss (4.4-4.5k).

Edit:
Nightshade excluded, anyone who can afford to be maxed out would never opt to run with NS instead of Nekro except from very specific low level maps.

[Jazzi]

Off topic again. This thread is getting a bit too heated Anyhow if I had the resources to switch to a maxed mage I would. A mage with 50% crit is a beast :-)

[Anyona]

Off topic again. This thread is getting a bit too heated Anyhow if I had the resources to switch to a maxed mage I would. A mage with 50% crit is a beast :-)

Yes they're op, clock hitting 2k on initial hit then not to mention all they're dots critting. I personally love playing mage but when it has mediocore stats I don't find it that fun.

[Edward Coug]

"First of all, the gap is less than a minute. The warrior and mage runs are safer (in my experience, at least), so I would gladly trade 45 seconds for not using any ankhs."
I'd suggest you type carefully and then re-read post before you tell others to "read carefully". lol

Your supposed difference is probably for you. Would like to point out your the one throwing out numbers like 7-8 etc. And fastest time for me would be 7;55(had to check) this is with a 3 rogue 1 mage party not even an all rogue party. With 400-500 ping and no damages 3 arcane pets and no rings in party. I didn't fare so well with a party full of arcane rings and nekros and an SnS approximately early 9 minute runs for. *When it comes to timed runs theres a lot of factors that needed to be taken into consideration(ping,gear,elixirs,lucky crits).*

You, someone who has changed from a mage character to a rogue character must realise whats missing in the gameplay. Either you can keep being delusional that mages are fine as the are or you can help the people who can change this realise theres something missing in the gameplay(which can easily be seen when one compares the number of rogues logging in endgame when theres an event or a new expansion to the other classes.)

You just told me to read carefully and you just misread a rogue to a mage. <_<

If you can't solo arena in that gear I'll suggest you talk to some of the people on my friendslist who have been soloing arena fine. Try using blinky, nilbog and nightshade for the different bosses(each bosses has a countering pet out of these 3). Could be your gameplay too, a little tweak here and there and you should solo arena fine. I also see you've mentioned pt3 in your post which i never mentioned. Some areas need the proper stats to be farmed, now compare a imbued, ring, mythic weapon, planar pendant and arcane pet rogue to a mage you will see the difference. Obviously a pink geared rogue can't solo pt3, read my there's a step called stepping stones to farming should explain how this game is supposed to be played. I bet by this time in the post you aren't liking the condescending manner I'm talking to you.


My rogues are just fine, most of them with good gear do what they are supposed to do. Have a few runners who run with me daily and i definetly enjoy the run with them #stillDoingPt3.

Vines what are these?i know not what your talking about. jk

I'll have you know the giants are the fastest kills, try killing them for a change when YOU feel beastly. I was born beastly and have always been the same.

I always run all the map with my lepre on I like rerolling for locks.

Besides you "enlightening" me about runs I'll have you know my teacher always told me empty vessels make the most noise, so the next time you go around throwing numbers around on forums be ready to get pawned(castled and check mated).

The last line will make you the butt of many a jokes I would suggest editing that out unless you don't want to be called out for 'that noob' down the line.




pfft i marked the part you should read in asterisks. I have a 400-500 ping constantly, end up lagging out in the double pulls. So *shoos tatnab away*

Avikk,

-Um, 45 seconds is less than a minute. So I'm not sure how I am being inconsistent. (8:30 - 7:45 = 45 seconds). Just clarifying. Not knocking you.

-I didn't switch from mage to rogue. I started out as a warrior, a class that I've advocated for a PvE buff all along. Even so, I've had great success getting good times with warriors in my party.

-"It's okay for a DPS class to have the armour and hp to tank almost every boss in endgame(of how a handful of rogues who have told me its easier to solo arena and elite wilds with legendaries(blinky as a pet) than an almost full mythic arcane pet rogue)."

You compared a pink rogue with a maxed-out rogue. That's why I was confused. I understand now that you meant to say maxed out mage. Again, just clarifying.

-I don't think it's easy to solo Arena as a rogue with all pink gear. I still don't. I don't know. Maybe I'm a noob. Probably so, lol.

-You don't park the giants? Really? I've found the runs to be much faster and safer when you park the giants, but it could just be me.

-There is much debate about whether you are better off using a lep in tombs. (I think there is a thread where Kalizza wrote about it a while ago.) I once saw someone reroll into two elite planar chests on one drop. However, I've rerolled out of more chests than into them. This of course will be a moot point soon as locks are being retired Thursday. (Finally!)

-I don't much care if I get called a noob. I stand by my 8:30 time with 2 rogues, 1 mage, and 1 warrior. Not trying to mislead anyone by posting fake times. I'm just trying to show everyone that at least for me, having an all rogue party doesn't make a huge difference, and it's actually a more dangerous run.

-I'll end by saying this. Avikk, I've run with you. I think you're good, and you've always been nice to me in parties. I don't mean any of this to be hostile. If anything came off as condescending, I'm sorry. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I just really want to dispel the false notion that all rogue parties are far superior to parties where all classes are represented (unless, of course, the rogues are built like Zeus). Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I don't think so.

[Tatman]

Off topic again. This thread is getting a bit too heated Anyhow if I had the resources to switch to a maxed mage I would. A mage with 50% crit is a beast :-)

It's heated, because it's the same 'rogue legends' bs. And that's getting old to be honest. People see the incredible lb times of those uber geared 4-rogue parties - arcane rings, gazillion paras, SnS stacking and whatnot - and go 'ooh rogues so op'. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of all the possible endgame 4-rogue parties in this game can't even touch those times multiplied by two (e.g. a record of 4 mins - most 4-rogue parties can't get under 8 mins).

[Kingofninjas]

It's heated, because it's the same 'rogue legends' bs. And that's getting old to be honest. People see the incredible lb times of those uber geared 4-rogue parties - arcane rings, gazillion paras, SnS stacking and whatnot - and go 'ooh rogues so op'. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of all the possible endgame 4-rogue parties in this game can't even touch those times multiplied by two (e.g. a record of 4 mins - most 4-rogue parties can't get under 8 mins).

Any half decent rogue party can get under 8 minutes. I'm speaking of a full mythic set and arcane pet. All you need to do is actually use shadow piercer at the boss and its incredibly easy to get a time of 7-8 minutes.

[Jazzi]

Any half decent rogue party can get under 8 minutes. I'm speaking of a full mythic set and arcane pet. All you need to do is actually use shadow piercer at the boss and its incredibly easy to get a time of 7-8 minutes.

Yes, it is true that any full mythic 4 rogue with arcane pets pt could do a 7-8 minute run, however:
1. They have to know what they are doing , e.g. no charching of skills, using piercer all the time.
2. They will have to pierce during the boss fight and this will mean anytging between 1-5 ankhs only for the boss part. This in contrast to them being able to go deathless otherwise. Anyhow it is fun to do it that way but the ankh cost would be too high.

P.S. Unless the pt has one, or preferably broken pets, aka Nekro. But then again they would not fall into the decently geared category would they. Further the OP claims this is generally valid, where as being that fast in 4 rogue pt is only possible after a certain level of gear and skill, which is not the average. And lastly I still maintain that 3 rogue and one mage is fastest pt.

[Tatman]

Any half decent rogue party can get under 8 minutes. I'm speaking of a full mythic set and arcane pet. All you need to do is actually use shadow piercer at the boss and its incredibly easy to get a time of 7-8 minutes.

Any half decent tank/mage/rogue/rogue party can go ~8 minutes with such gear.

And btw I was talking elites in general, not just Tomb 3.

[Edward Coug]

Any half decent tank/mage/rogue/rogue party can go ~8 minutes with such gear.

And btw I was talking elites in general, not just Tomb 3.

Egads. I'm so embarrassed. I've been going around thinking I was half decent for so long.

But seriously. I've been in parties with some very good well-geared players, and everyone is thrilled when we break 8 minutes.

I think the real elephants in the room are the overpowered pets. I don't actually have a problem with them, but they are what turn a high damage, moderate health/armor rogue into a tank and allow for crazy insta-kill banish stacking. How many rogues have Nekro and SNS and a gazillion para gems? Not many.