classbalace - WHO are the ppl to judge?

[Caabatric]

I suffered reading some of these comments by mages and rogues :/ (not all)
Between the extreme exagerations, the complete lack of knowledge of pvp, and the complete mmix of random comments, i could barely piece together what this thread is about.

First we need to stop comparing things based solely on paper. This actually would tell you tanks are the dominant class stat wise.... and maul is better than bonesaw, the eloia bow upgrade was useful etc...

First we need to level the playing field as much as possible.
(not in pvp yet)

Maxed Mage- 5.6K Health, 1500ish armor, 1000 damage, 43% crit, 10%dodge
Maxed Rogue- 5.2k Health, 1980 armor, 900 damage 46% crit, 50%dodge (crits on rogue is far stronger than a crit on mage)

Based solely on paper which class looks superior, rogue correct?

Now lets look at debuffs + buffs put on each class after skills are used (excluding pets):

Mage- -15% base armor, +50% armor (cancelled) +stun and bleed immunity, low chance to avoid auto attack (low damage shots), 55% damage reduction for about 8 seconds during vs
Rogue- -10% damage, +stun immunity, 3 individual packs healing 30% health each, high chance to avoid auto attack(low damage shots)

So lets look at what that^^ all means
Mage- 7.8k health for 7-9 seconds (in form of shield), 1000 damage, 1275 armor, Stun immunity for 7-9 seconds, tanks low damage shots (all other stats same)
Rogue- 9.8k health (in form of possible heal), 810 damage, 1980 armor, stun immunity for 8 seconds, low damage shots are void(with sp heal and dodge) (all other stats same)

Again it looks like rogues are the clear winner on PAPER!!

The rogues heal pack heals about 1.5k per pack, if it loses one of those packs rogues drop from 9.8k-8.3k-6.8k.... Not only this, but the statement "rogues dish out damage the fastest" is true on paper, but not in practice....

In the sample above rogues are using pack, razor, sp, aim.. Now most mages are smart to stay away from packs too avoid being sp often... Usually a rogue may pull off one sp before having to stay too close too packs, too sp without the loss of a needed pack...

I must say that pretty much balances out the mage vs rogue scenario...

Now clashes i have to test before blabbering about it....

[Americabud]

Whether I know how to control a rogue or not is not what is being questioned here. The fact is that even when mages have no shield up and I get a crit aimed shot, my combo is still unlikely to kill one with 5.7k hp, which is the norm at my gear level. Any mage who knows how to play will never be caught with no shield up in a 5 vs 5 clash with 2 nekros or more per team. That's an automatic 40% dmg reduction bonus, 80% when nekro and shield overlap, making it impossible to kill a mage 1 combo. Mages, on the other hand, can often kill me (5k hp 2.1k armor) with a combo of fire, ice and lightning. Crit lighting and fireball alone can bring me close enough to death that any attack, even from a lvl 46 arcane pet, will leave me dead. Don't take my word for it. Asking you to do so would be unreasonable. Take part in a clash, ideally as a rogue if u have one (lvl 46 at least 2 nekro and even gear), where both teams have the same number of tanks, but one team has more mages than the other and see how many clashes the team with more rogues wins. It's possible but very unlikely to happen. I have played enough clashes against one of the best mages in game (voorg) to know that stacking mages is very difficult to counter by stacking rogues.

@americabud obviously rogues will be at the top of event lb as they are single target and hence far faster than mages at killing bosses. Also as Zeus pointed out, your numbers on stats are way off, both for rogue and mage. If I were to maintain 2k armor 5k hp and 45 crit, I would need 8 eye gems, which is 16-18m right there. Mages have closer to 6k hp and often more crit than rogues. If you think rogues are overpowered in clashes, you are doing something wrong as a mage.

Mages often have more crit than mages? Lmao I hope that doesn't mean majority of the time... Back to the FACTS rouges have higher crit than any class their level the MAJORITY of times. Common knowledge there. Also if rouge has higher DMG output due to dmg x crit = true DMG and they also have more armour what does that mean, hmmmmm. More DMG output + more armour hmmm, please refer to my earlier posts to put 2 and 2 together so I don't have to repeat ty

[Caabatric]

Mages often have more crit than mages? Lmao I hope that doesn't mean majority of the time... Back to the FACTS rouges have higher crit than any class their level the MAJORITY of times. Common knowledge there. Also if rouge has higher DMG output due to dmg x crit = true DMG and they also have more armour what does that mean, hmmmmm. More DMG output + more armour hmmm, please refer to my earlier posts to put 2 and 2 together so I don't have to repeat ty

Please refer to my post when talking about on paper stats :/

When comparing maxed mage vs maxed rogue usually the mage has the same crit if not higher, in my example I based the crit off a random player I saw in garretta who was likely almost fully maxed on gems.....

Again the rogues have ahigher damage output when they crit, mages have a higher consistency of damage but are very capable of burst damage

[Oursizes]

Please refer to my post when talking about on paper stats :/

When comparing maxed mage vs maxed rogue usually the mage has the same crit if not higher, in my example I based the crit off a random player I saw in garretta who was likely almost fully maxed on gems.....

Again the rogues have ahigher damage output when they crit, mages have a higher consistency of damage but are very capable of burst damage

All it takes is one fireball

[kiwotsukete]

I am by far not the most skilled mage in pvp, but in pve, I have extreme amount of knowledge on the mechanics of a mage. I have played mage my entire time on the game, ive spent over 500 hours as a mage running maps. I will say this, a mage is better than a rogue... mages skills are by face more advanced than any rogue skills. our timing has to be much more spot on than a rogues. from a pve standpoint, a mage is more damage than a rogue, considering the mages AoE damage and the DoT of a mage. any mage can solo a map easier than a rogue considering I can stun and and block every single mob in this game except for bosses.

[Caabatric]

I am by far not the most skilled mage in pvp, but in pve, I have extreme amount of knowledge on the mechanics of a mage. I have played mage my entire time on the game, ive spent over 500 hours as a mage running maps. I will say this, a mage is better than a rogue... mages skills are by face more advanced than any rogue skills. our timing has to be much more spot on than a rogues. from a pve standpoint, a mage is more damage than a rogue, considering the mages AoE damage and the DoT of a mage. any mage can solo a map easier than a rogue considering I can stun and and block every single mob in this game except for bosses.

I am assuming you dont have much time in elite maps as rogue?
I guarantee maps will be easier too complete as a rogue as well as faster....

[Alhuntrazeck]

I'm not going to add my opinion here because frankly I'm tired of the cheap drama and popularity contest these threads have degraded too - and besides you all know my opinion as a mage lol. But I have tested it, and mage shield does NOT stack with Nekro shield. The reason I (and I suppose many other mages) use shield along with Nekro is because of the invulnerability and the fact that the mage shield is stronger than the Nekro shield. I'd rather start out a clash with invulnerability than with the Nekro shield alone with which I can be easily comboed by a rogue.

So no, not 80% damage reduction.

EDIT: Regarding crit. Conrad was the mage with the highest crit I knew of at the l41 cap - around 60%. How did he do this? Easy.

1 para, 14 eyes, the crit archon (which adds 3% crit more than shown in the cs window), crit versions of the imbued (force?). Thus, even though he had good gear, his damage was not very high at all (more or less equal to 650 I believe), while other mages of similar gear passed 700.

My point is, crit is easy to get if you stuff your gear with eyes (amok). U sacrifice on other things though so it's pointless, not to mention the cost.

(okay, I may be exaggerating on the number of eyes. Take it from me though it was a high number)

[Eldorado]

I am by far not the most skilled mage in pvp, but in pve, I have extreme amount of knowledge on the mechanics of a mage. I have played mage my entire time on the game, ive spent over 500 hours as a mage running maps. I will say this, a mage is better than a rogue... mages skills are by face more advanced than any rogue skills. our timing has to be much more spot on than a rogues. from a pve standpoint, a mage is more damage than a rogue, considering the mages AoE damage and the DoT of a mage. any mage can solo a map easier than a rogue considering I can stun and and block every single mob in this game except for bosses.

Funny. I have a mage. I have more damage than a rogue. I own every class because of massive damage and very high crit and mana. I prefer to run with all mage because it will be faster because we are imba with three to four mages in pve. Mages are the champion of this game because secretly we own other class. Rogue should be the one to buff because they are weak. Because the fact that majority use mage because they want the op class toon. Now STS decide, will you listen here or base the statistics of whats happening in game? Join all my friends and support to debuff the op mage.

[kiwotsukete]

I am assuming you dont have much time in elite maps as rogue?
I guarantee maps will be easier too complete as a rogue as well as faster....

nah, as a mage it is easier since you can stun every mob and you can use clock as a blocker of mobs. yes, a rogue may be faster, but a mage with strategies, is an unstoppable force.

[CheifR]

Mages were never meant to do extremely significant damage to one specific target in the first place. You'll never be satisfied if you keep comparing yourself to us. AoE and amazing crowd control is what you guys specialize in and the more enemies in front of you = the more damage output. Rogues were designed to be able to take down ONE specific target QUICKLY. But give everyone else that ability then why would you need us either?

Some people need to understand that some of these situations are inevitable because of the roles of each class. If you like the idea of controlling the movement and dealing damage to large hordes of enemies GO MAGE. If you aren't satisfied with how quickly you can take down the target right in front of you than quit whining and GO ROGUE. Each class has their place and it's up to you to find out where you belong.

P.S. I don't really use warrior often so my opinion on their playstyle would be too prejudice to comment on.

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[Eldorado]

nah, as a mage it is easier since you can stun every mob and you can use clock as a blocker of mobs. yes, a rogue may be faster, but a mage with strategies, is an unstoppable force.

You can stun every mobs on elite? Mage really rocks. Mages are invincible. Rules both pvp and pve. Evidence is we are at the every top of the ladder. Too bad the other class it to weak to go against mages on every aspect. Facts will never change. Many people will use the op class so do not mess around. Let us play mage legend forever.

[Americabud]

Mages were never meant to do extremely significant damage to one specific target in the first place. You'll never be satisfied if you keep comparing yourself to us. AoE and amazing crowd control is what you guys specialize in and the more enemies in front of you = the more damage output. Rogues were designed to be able to take down ONE specific target QUICKLY. But give everyone else that ability then why would you need us either?

Some people need to understand that some of these situations are inevitable because of the roles of each class. If you like the idea of controlling the movement and dealing damage to large hordes of enemies GO MAGE. If you aren't satisfied with how quickly you can take down the target right in front of you than quit whining and GO ROGUE. Each class has their place and it's up to you to find out where you belong.

P.S. I don't really use warrior often so my opinion on their playstyle would be too prejudice to comment on.

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Noone is asking for a mage damage buff here... Just supporting the mage heal update gg

[CheifR]

None is asking for a mage damage buff here... Just supporting the mage heal update

In that case lots would be considered off topic as I see mentioned many many times about the fact that "well rogues deal x amount of dmg with x crit and we can't do that to them" it's rare in this thread that I've even seen people mention heal.

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[kiwotsukete]

im not asking for changes, simply defending rogues based off of my mage knowledge.

[Americabud]

In that case lots would be considered off topic as I see mentioned many many times about the fact that "well rogues deal x amount of dmg with x crit and we can't do that to them" it's rare in this thread that I've even seen people mention heal.

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Well do you see how we are quoting each other comments.. Its possible to do so with any comment in this thread you should quote it because I don't think I've seen anyone argue for more damage for mages..

[Eldorado]

im not asking for changes, simply defending rogues based off of my mage knowledge.

Knowledge like stunning all the mob in elite maps with your fireball and move lock all the with your clock?

[CheifR]

Mages often have more crit than mages? Lmao I hope that doesn't mean majority of the time... Back to the FACTS rouges have higher crit than any class their level the MAJORITY of times. Common knowledge there. Also if rouge has higher DMG output due to dmg x crit = true DMG and they also have more armour what does that mean, hmmmmm. More DMG output + more armour hmmm, please refer to my earlier posts to put 2 and 2 together so I don't have to repeat ty

I'm sorry I must be blind but I can't seem to find anything here regarding this heal being used in clash :/ just complaints about rogue dmg vs mage

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[kiwotsukete]

Knowledge like stunning all the mob in elite maps with your fireball and move lock all the with your clock?

yep, that an over 500 hours of playing as a mage, spending days upon days researching mage pvp, speaking to the top mages, and testing mage pvp and trying it for myself. pretty sure I fit the bill when it comes to experience.

and yes, a mage can solo any elite using stuns and clocks. while singling out mobs that are immune to stuns, ice, and clocks such as the mages in planar (although clock drop with root upgrade works quite well on them. and it also stops quite a few hard bosses from moving I.e: t3 boss cant do his charge attack.

[Americabud]

I'm sorry I must be blind but I can't seem to find anything regarding this heal being used in clash :/ just complaints about rogue dmg vs mage

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If you've read up you'd notice all the rouges under the assumption that the game was balanced before the update has disrupted the balance making rouges not as useful anymore. By looking at the facts the "heal upgrade" changed almost nothing about being dominate in highest damage output due to crit, second beat armour value worth 1k more than mages. By making these points clear hope to show rouges still dominate and the upgrade was much needed
For specifics on how to put 2 and 2 together refer to my earlier comments ty

[kiwotsukete]

If you've read up you'd notice all the rouges under the assumption that the game was balanced before the update has disrupted the balance making rouges not as useful anymore. By looking at the facts the "heal upgrade" changed almost nothing about being dominate in highest damage output due to crit, second beat armour value worth 1k more than mages. By making these points clear hope to show rouges still dominate and the upgrade was much needed

I simply do not understand where you get that mages have 1k less armor than rogues... as a mage my armor is over 1.6k... most rogues have 1.8-1.9k armor...