STS inadvertently causing ingame 'Classism' in PVE and

[Maarkus]

Dear STS,

It has become apparent that the direction of the game. Interms of 'type' of events and released gear has caused Classism within the game when it come to PVE

How can this be?

When majority of the community acknowledges that among 3 classes one is OP for PVE.
When events cater to a specific class to achieve better results
When the released gear does not provide avenues for the least efficient class to catch up with the more OP class

The community has aknowledged this... Will you?

More importantly will you take quick action? Meaning no 'we are working on it ' replies that has been said for 2yrs running

Just my thoughts... Feel free to remove post if it is not i line with TOS.

Thanks

Maarkus

[Cody Black]

^^^ agree, let's vote

[PhoenixPrime]

Would be nice to actually have Warriors be able to hold aggro in PVE.

Pretty much been spending my time on other games lately, but those games at least have allowed me too see how much of a difference it makes when you have a 'real' tank in your party.

Would be nice to see that better implemented here, 8^).

[Maarkus]

Would be nice to actually have Warriors be able to hold aggro in PVE.

Pretty much been spending my time on other games lately, but those games at least have allowed me too see how much of a difference it makes when you have a 'real' tank in your party.

Would be nice to see that better implemented here, 8^).

This is indeed a major class defing rile that the warrior need to have, in which it was originally intended but due to game progression has been lost in the developement.

A warriors primary role is to hold aggro and not kill everything that moves... We all agree to that but the current mechanism of the threat meter is not compensating for the massive dmg output of the other classes.

Numerous suggestions have been proposed to achieve this but i belive STS is afraid of creating imbalance which is reasonable . I think an intial attempt to solve this was to add DOT to skyward smash, unfortunately other classes have imense damage output that they easily steal aggro and overite the threat meter.

If controling the damage output of a warrior is a concern then why not approach taunts in a different perspective?

Taunt Over Time - Proposed suggestion which does not involve altering damage out put
1.0 taunts are release periodically per taunt upgrade equiped in skill in the skill bar
1.1 meaning for every taunt updade the warrior hass he will disperse taunts every 4seconds... Continously whether or not the skill is pressed or not.
1.2 a second upgrade selected meaningi have taunt in HOR andi then select a taunt upgrade in the chest splitter skill ... Another second will be shaved of the taunt dispersing time... Meanint the warrior will taunt every 3seconds, and so on meaning if i have 4 taunt updrages selected the warrior will disperse taunts every second.

This does not affect the threat meter in any way, a dmg/dps toon that crits massively will still steall aggro but a warrior can regain it 1-3seconds later .

This also prevents altering skill cool. Down times not affecting the hor release and attack skill release.

Thanks for reading

maarkus

[Ardbeg]

When events cater to a specific class to achieve better results

this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.

[ilhanna]

this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.

Out of thanks, but I fully agree that turning warrior into yet another damage dealer is not the way to go. Not only does it go against the warrior's role in party, it will only exacerbate the dependence on gear and upgrades with focus on damage (which has brought us where we are now, where everything favors rogues) and less emphasis on skills understanding and mastery. It may also perpetuate the whole cycle that ends with buffing map difficulty by increasing enemy hp and dmg. The Ren'gol mobs have unique challenges that, with the right buff/debuff features you suggested for warrior skills, may make warriors necessary in a party. As it is now, tanking Ren'gol means spending a lot of time stunned that, never mind dealing damage, you're lucky if you can still protect your party by taking aggro.

[Maarkus]

this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.

This suggestion also goes well with warrior development.

Why alter stats when the real problem is inefficient skills. Why would a dmg/dps class want another class if they will just have the same function?

Anther aproach to this is to have party buffs and appropriate skills as Ardbeg mentions.

Chest splitter staggering blow has a cancel windup upgrade which has not been in play since season 3. At one point in time this was a Warrior's key skill agains Jarl in lock farming. Imagine if Warriors can preempt red zones from mobs and bosses. More importantly this was already coded, all sts has to do is reactivate the upgrade not causing too much deviation in game play but altering map runs massively

[aneshsinghblu]

This suggestion also goes well with warrior development.

Why alter stats when the real problem is inefficient skills. Why would a dmg/dps class want another class if they will just have the same function?

Anther aproach to this is to have party buffs and appropriate skills as Ardbeg mentions.

Chest splitter staggering blow has a cancel windup upgrade which has not been in play since season 3. At one point in time this was a Warrior's key skill agains Jarl in lock farming. Imagine if Warriors can preempt red zones from mobs and bosses. More importantly this was already coded, all sts has to do is reactivate the upgrade not causing too much deviation in game play but altering map runs massively

I don't think that upgrade will be coming back. that upgrade would be like canceling ankh usage.
fact is that sts wants you to die. . red zones has always been bugged. its so evident in the new map. miles away from troll then bam you dead. then they say its lag that's causing us to die.
if it takes more than a week to fix. . maybe not a bug but as intended imo
remember when normal wilds was dropping elite chests. . that was a bug to them. . it was fixed in an hour or two

[Jazzi]

I fully agree with that. While this was a problem only after a certain level of gear last expansion, no it is a problem all across the board. If you don't have the certain level of gear and pets the warrior is stunned all the time and u die to one hit anyway as his questionable capacity t hold aggro is zero. If u have that certain lvl of gear you just don't need a warrior. The rengol are anti-warrior maps.

[Oezheasate]

Giving warriors more damage isnt the solution, most people agree with that point. But those buffs mentioned, giving the whole party more damage crit etc.
That might be a solution, the tank would be degraded to a pet which gets used for its nice buffs and sometimes takes a few hits and holds aggro for one or two seconds but that would still get tanks back into PvE.
Tanks are outcasts and STS hasnt even acknowledged the issue.

[Midievalmodel]

This is probably where the main problem arises:

A warrior makes a thrread like this, it gets flooded with ideas. Opinions are divided and the solution is inadvertently lost in the sea of posts. Thread dies in a week or so. Then a fortnight later it's bumped up by another warrior. Couple of months later another warrior comes by and makes a thread.

Giving warriors more hp, dmg or even armour will only mean mobs/bosses hit harder in mage. This becomes a major pain in the neck for any mage with a "laggy" warrior and when the mobs can't get stunned or frozen its just the worst nightmare anyone could have.

Tbh, tanks are as much of an outcast as mages are. Not having an insane AoE for mages means most rogues will be dealing more damage at mobs especially when it's pulls of 3. Mages got more left out during double fossil weekend because unless you were stacked up on elixir and had the best gear most endgame warriors were dealing more damage with their skill sets in Arena. It doesn't help that half the environments of arena and the monster of Arlor are immune to the elemental effects of a Nott.

Giving the warriors an upgrade on rally cry or VB would be better than anything else. Since it could be tweaked so that warriors aren't left out on parties when the party wants to run efficiently. Honestly adding stun immunity to rally cry is redundant most rogues have razor shield and almost all mages without nekro run with shield. Would the warriors be content getting parties to when there aren't enough nekros in party and missing out on all the parties who have the best gear!?

How about not having a spot on the timed run lbr!? I don't think it's fair that warriors are left out on that too. Giving warriors the skills to support the DPS classes by increasing the DPS classes damage output would be the way to go. I honestly wouldn't mind mobs which were faster and hence easier. Then there's the boss one hit cancelling ability being given to warriors, this should happen if mages were given the ability to cancel out said one hits too. Don't want to be dependant on the smellies of Arlor to save my blue butt

I agree giving warriors a party buff would be helpful to make them more wanted in PVE. But you are also missing the point about difficulties of maps. Back then when maps were so difficult and mob leashes were wider and mobs were alot more denser a mage was essential in a party for crowd control. If you had no crowd control back then ur team was toast. Warriors back then absorbed alot of the damage to prevent squishy mages from dying (had higher relative armor compared to other classes). You are concerned about how hard the current maps are? Trust me these maps are nothing compared to kraken and nordr elite maps back then. And back then everyone played in harmony.

[Oursizes]

Giving warriors more damage isnt the solution, most people agree with that point. But those buffs mentioned, giving the whole party more damage crit etc.
That might be a solution, the tank would be degraded to a pet which gets used for its nice buffs and sometimes takes a few hits and holds aggro for one or two seconds but that would still get tanks back into PvE.
Tanks are outcasts and STS hasnt even acknowledged the issue.

I think you mean upgraded into a pet from a bummed loner. To me, thats a huge leap.

[Energizeric]

I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

I think perhaps this is the solution:

1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.

[Midievalmodel]

I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

I think perhaps this is the solution:

1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.

Thank you Maarkus for bringing up this great discussion. This discussion unfortunately has been brought up many times by great warriors like Maarkus and countless other warriors as well. Just seems to fall on death ears or STG doesn't feel this issue is important enough for them to do much about and instead they go on trying to make watered-down new content that has failed miserably. You can just tell when you log on and see empty towns and empty friends list.

I agree with Energ about increasing warriors armor and increasing the damage dealt by the bosses. This is a viable way to increase warriors need in PVE. But these two things have to happen together to make any sense. A good prime example of how STG has tried to limit warriors armor to balance out PVP is look at the new mythic armor set. How is it that warriors gain almost the same amount of armor increase if they get the mythic helm and armor (compared to the crate legendary 46 helm and armor) as a rogue or even mage for that matter? Go look at Ravagers comparison of the mythic set. Warriors literally only gain extra 12 armor compared to rogues and mages. What kinda sense is that?

see below for link to Ravager's mythic set comparison
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...hic+comparison

[Oursizes]

I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

I think perhaps this is the solution:

1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.

Honestly, an armor buff for warriors will be as useful as the mage mana regen upgrade in lifegiver unless the aggro-holding skills are buffed. A warrior with cs windmill jugg and axe will be lucky to hold aggro of one monster for even 3 seconds.

[Tatman]

In my opinion the design of the Rengol maps is a huge fail in general and no matter what buff you apply to tanks, they will remain useless in these maps.

Buffing mobs and bosses further won't help either. Actually, I think it will make matters even worse. We already have enough bosses that can one-hit rogues and mages. Which ones exactly require a warrior?

If I were the devs, I'd try this:

1. Fix the brutes, so that they can't randomly one-hit out of nowhere (including tanks).
2. Fix the gladiator, so that he doesn't shield himself.
3. Most importantly - increase the leash ranges of all Rengol mobs, so that you can't just skip the hardest ones.

[Midievalmodel]

In my opinion the design of the Rengol maps is a huge fail in general and no matter what buff you apply to tanks, they will remain useless in these maps.

Buffing mobs and bosses further won't help either. Actually, I think it will make matters even worse. We already have enough bosses that can one-hit rogues and mages. Which ones exactly require a warrior?

If I were the devs, I'd try this:

1. Fix the brutes, so that they can't randomly one-hit out of nowhere (including tanks).
2. Fix the gladiator, so that he doesn't shield himself.
3. Most importantly - increase the leash ranges of all Rengol mobs, so that you can't just skip the hardest ones.

I disagree with you. I don't know Tata if you played during the nordr elite days. Warriors were definitely needed in those maps and mobs and bosses one hit everyone. The only problem now is there are ankhs but I still think it would make parties wanna run with warriors if they are using too many ankhs.

What the real issue here is this. STG needs to make these maps harder but at the same time decrease the amount of ingredients needed to craft the mythic gear and arcane pets to balance out the difficulty of these maps. Right now the trend is for easy maps with repeated large volumes of easy runs to obtain large volumes of ingredients required. Guess who this favors.....you guessed it....dps classes. This will only exclude all warriors from any pve party.

I do agree with you about increasing the leash range of the mobs. But STG wont do it because of lag issues. So its a mute point.

[Energizeric]

3. Most importantly - increase the leash ranges of all Rengol mobs, so that you can't just skip the hardest ones.

This has been tried in the past and it resulted in loads of disconnections and tons of lag. Apparently most players do not have the required internet speed or the required tablet/phone hardware to handle the complex graphics that are transmitted when the mobs get too big. It works ok with some of the simple tombs like WT4 because the monsters are somewhat simple. But in the more advanced dungeons where there is more at play, it causes way too much lag.

[Tatman]

This has been tried in the past and it resulted in loads of disconnections and tons of lag. Apparently most players do not have the required internet speed or the required tablet/phone hardware to handle the complex graphics that are transmitted when the mobs get too big. It works ok with some of the simple tombs like WT4 because the monsters are somewhat simple. But in the more advanced dungeons where there is more at play, it causes way too much lag.

I used to think so too, but I don't anymore. When I lag (and it definitely isn't my net or hardware), I lag everywhere - from Brackenridge to Rengol. When it's fine, it's fine everywhere, including the biggest elite pulls possible.

I disagree with you. I don't know Tata if you played during the nordr elite days. Warriors were definitely needed in those maps and mobs and bosses one hit everyone. The only problem now is there are ankhs but I still think it would make parties wanna run with warriors if they are using too many ankhs.

What the real issue here is this. STG needs to make these maps harder but at the same time decrease the amount of ingredients needed to craft the mythic gear and arcane pets to balance out the difficulty of these maps. Right now the trend is for easy maps with repeated large volumes of easy runs to obtain large volumes of ingredients required. Guess who this favors.....you guessed it....dps classes. This will only exclude all warriors from any pve party.

I do agree with you about increasing the leash range of the mobs. But STG wont do it because of lag issues. So its a mute point.

Agreed about Nordr, but there is one issue here. Buffing Rengol mobs, so that they regularly one-hit rogues/mages, will mean that most of the time they will two-hit warriors (and it will be so fast that it will look like a one-hit). The gap in survivability between dps classes and warriors is not that big anymore. I see warriors die in stupid 5-mob pulls even now. For example a bomb + a gladiator red zone attack. Even some of the so called "ordinary mobs" have hard-hitting attacks. Not to mention the brutes, who I've seen one-hit tanks on Nekro shield, but let's say this is a bug (although not fixed by now, so might be intended). I can tell you right now, that if mobs get further buffed, all you will see is all-dps parties on lixes for fast clearing. In my opinion, this will be the final nail in the coffin of the pve warrior.

[Midievalmodel]

I used to think so too, but I don't anymore. When I lag (and it definitely isn't my net or hardware), I lag everywhere - from Brackenridge to Rengol. When it's fine, it's fine everywhere, including the biggest elite pulls possible.


Agreed about Nordr, but there is one issue here. Buffing Rengol mobs, so that they regularly one-hit rogues/mages, will mean that most of the time they will two-hit warriors (and it will be so fast that it will look like a one-hit). The gap in survivability between dps classes and warriors is not that big anymore. I see warriors die in stupid 5-mob pulls even now. For example a bomb + a gladiator red zone attack. Even some of the so called "ordinary mobs" have hard-hitting attacks. Not to mention the brutes, who I've seen one-hit tanks on Nekro shield, but let's say this is a bug (although not fixed by now, so might be intended). I can tell you right now, that if mobs get further buffed, all you will see is all-dps parties on lixes for fast clearing. In my opinion, this will be the final nail in the coffin of the pve warrior.

Well you hit the nail on the head man. That is what STG needs to fix in order for this to work. Make the armor gap between warriors and rogue more significant so that rogues will get one hit but warriors don't. Then increase the difficulty of the bosses in the map more so than the mobs. Again similar to nordr days where bosses and mobs hit hard and warriors had much bigger gap in HP and armor allowing them to survive. Also don't forget warriors back in the nordr days also died left and right cuz it was that hard. Only the skilled warriors with high hp and armor and fast fingers for potions survived. This was mentioned below by alhuntrazeck.

Who needs taunt from a warrior or AOE canceling skills if the new rengol maps have soft hitting bosses, low mob counts and nekro at their disposal?

The confounding issue here is rogues in PVE are too powerful in every aspect.....damage dealers...survivability with high dodge/high armor/nekro shield....high crit.....pretty decent HP. So no matter how much you buff warriors next to turning them into a rogue....will not be enough for people not to run all rogue parties. In fact this is also the same reason why mages have kinda lost out in PVE elite runs as well. if Rogues rarely die they need no crowd control from mages....hence mages are less needed.