The Class choice that Tanks the most? Commando vs Bear

[Irconfuzed]

Awesome, thanks for sharing your views, so true that a good Tank is very useful but hard to master?

But let me try to be antagonistic for sec, the way I see it is that the problem is that PL and guess SL/*L/B* (!) is very "pick-up-n-play" friendly so group trinity needs to be more flexible ie not restrictive because:

1. You could have no tank class in a pug.
2. Jumble of classes needs to be workable at least if not optimal
3. Some players will not be so aware of the Trinity roles and so some lee-way needed if players want to role a class for the rp/non-mechanic aspect of the class eg cool looking, selection of gear & maybe a story in *L etc.
4. Solo play is always important if your friends are not online/you feel like a single-player experience for a break or farming etc.
5. PvP only has 3 classes so for it to have depth need to make all classes rock-paper-scissors to make it more interesting for team-work or at least T = H = D with different playstyles so it's even and about know our class inside out to win...

MMO groups have always need 4 things.
1. Tank
2. Healer
3. Crowd Control
4. DPS

In PL we only have 3 "classes" to fill these roles, so there has to be double duty. I was really excited to see the bear have the crowd control and taunt. It was a slightly new way to tank rather than spam taunt and threat building skills. The let down was that tanking just isn't vital.
Because of the fact that every class can fill multiple roles, pick-up groups are easy. It would be nice to have a ready made group you run with every night...and im sure there's a lot of you that do, but its just as easy to run through a few PUGs until you find a good one.
I'm of the opinion that if groups NEEDED a good tank, good healer, or skilled dps class for every run it would make that friends list we have more important and there would be a tighter community.

[ratava]

MMO groups have always need 4 things.
1. Tank
2. Healer
3. Crowd Control
4. DPS

In PL we only have 3 "classes" to fill these roles, so there has to be double duty. I was really excited to see the bear have the crowd control and taunt. It was a slightly new way to tank rather than spam taunt and threat building skills. The let down was that tanking just isn't vital.
Because of the fact that every class can fill multiple roles, pick-up groups are easy. It would be nice to have a ready made group you run with every night...and im sure there's a lot of you that do, but its just as easy to run through a few PUGs until you find a good one.
I'm of the opinion that if groups NEEDED a good tank, good healer, or skilled dps class for every run it would make that friends list we have more important and there would be a tighter community.

I think the above is indeed true, but more ideally true. IE for it to work you have to add more assumptions to be able to hold up these conditions above:

eg if groups need a good tank: Increases the pressure/responsibility on Tank players --> less players want to play this class?
eg if you are playing at a time your friends who you depend on are not, it's going to be harder work
eg Tank solo'ing is no fun without damage/healer - expensive on pots?

The other thing is the above is better for roles in teams when conditions are right, but they also are worse for solo'ing and eg LF-T/H becomes a real problem even if you have +3 players running a dungeon/level. I also think it can degrade into "tank & spank" being the only viable gameplay if it excludes all classes being viable hybrids or any random combination of classes?

I like the idea of improving Tanks... but based on GIVING MORE OPTIONS not taking options away as a priority then giving customization and on-the-fly specialization options also WHEN it's needed... eg boss fights and PvP?

I think perhaps giving a selection of weapons each of which has skills that are geared to DPS, CC, SUPPORT+HEAL, TANK&TAUNT in various proportions to all classes but maybe buff options (Ellyidol's idea) more leaning towards certain ways for certain classes?

[Irconfuzed]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

[ratava]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

Just added a little edit re weapons/buffs also to fit the

Generalist vs Specialist

discussion!

Yeah, I've done this more than a few times: Pitching PL & SL as if they are same as PC lol eg collision detection Oops... in the search for solving the above^ I wonder if it is solvable?

But the Specialist Roles eg Tank and Healer are still important esp. WHEN the conditions above are good.

[Ellyidol]

That's very true. We have to remember this isn't the PC platform where when you sit down to play it will be a 4-5 hour session. With this mobile MMO, I play when I have the chance throughout the day and its nice accomplishing something in 20-30 minutes.
So yeah, solo-ability, and ease of pick up group play has to be a priority. Good point.

Although SL and PL are most definitely still pick-up games, in which you can get started right away, I think the community has shown its ability to consume content pretty quick, therefore calling for more time consuming or in-depth systems for the game.

By time consuming or in-depth I don't mean "Spend half an hour to get to the dungeon/boss you want", or spend countless hours to get to / kill a very big boss - let's leave that for WoW, but definitely more than just levelling to max, getting gear, then what? Hopefully there will be something else in store for us..

Also, although SL and PL are both from STS, I very highly doubt that SL is a complete copy-paste of PL. At least in terms of gameplay and game building. Sure, it'll be good in the short-run, after all it will be new. But the moment players start to see that playing SL is actually just PL in different skin, there might be a problem there.

I'm pretty confident and excited that SL will be entirely different though, especially with all the resources and effort that STS seems to be putting into it.

[Irconfuzed]

I would personally like to see end game raid content on some scale. I haven't pushed very hard to hit lvl 56 in PL because there isn't much point. The best thing about the old MMOs I used to play was that grinding to the lvl cap was a small part of the game. I spent months on that grind, then years raiding with my guild and friends. I wouldn't trade those raid nights for the world.

[Irconfuzed]

Even one 10 man raid-only dungeon would be a good reason for me to grind to the lvl cap and find a few folks to farm it for a cool looking set of gear.

[ratava]

We know a few things worth summarizing:

Pocket Legends' raid encounters have developed over time into very complicated affairs, and "we just barely scratched the surface of what the Spacetime Engine could do" in that game, according to Gattis.

tuaw

This is pretty much where the similarities end, however, as the developers are promising that Blackstar will offer a vastly bigger, far more story-driven world.

gamezebo

This will definitely be a bit more of a hardcore MMORPG than Pocket Legends.

droidgamers

And from Cinco on Combat:

Blackstar will definitely have a global cool-down. It will probably have other skill-class cool-downs as well. Like all of your "Holographic" stuff may have a cool-down and all of your "Amp-Light" will have its own, etc. We did a build of Blackstar where the DPS character (called the "Operative") could use a target debuff to get different combo results with three different classes of weapon. It was very compelling - totally different from PL in a great way

And in the interview from Mr Gattis:

The game plays differently, we’re adding different types of mechanics. We’re adding all these environmental mechanics, these doors and pressure plates and “I can only hack this terminal if I’m this type of class” and it really changes the way that the game feels

There's a few more including: GDC 2011:

However, Barnes admits that the team made a key mistake when it came to Pocket Legends' PvP gameplay: It focused on PvE first and then tried to tack on PvP later. Trying to balance PvP after the fact became extremely difficult, which is why Spacetime decided to focus on PvP first in design for all future titles.

Although PvP may be in waiting: From MMORPGitalia

We will most likely have PvP in Blackstar at launch, but it is too soon to tell.

Summary:

1. More Story
2. More Environmental gameplay
3. Improved PvP
4. More "hardcore" combat incl layers of GCD.
5. Greater customization eg m/f choices per class

Roll on E3 info..

Just to add for completion:

interview from Mr Gattis:

Pocket Legends launched with just a little bit. Star Legends is able to leverage the best of Pocket Legends development so it will come with all of those systems that Pocket Legends has, plus a few, and then we’ll roll those systems back into Pocket Legends ...

[Ellyidol]

Yeah I'm definitely excited

[WhoIsThis]

I'm going to have to ask you this, how much experience do you have playing 5v5 PvP games? I've found that tanks are significantly more useful in PvP than in PvE. They lead the party and can even last a surprisingly long time against even 4v1 - they are usually the last to die. They are invaluable absorbing a lot of fire while the other classes (mages in particular due to AOE) can set up their spells. Birds can also take advantage of the bear, although I've found birds already excel at 1v1 to begin with.

They are also pretty decent 1v1. If you don't have your mana shield up or you're a bird who hasn't time their combo, being beckoned and stomped can be a one hit ko.

[ratava]

Last I was really into pvp bow-bears were all the rage; don't play pvp much since those times. Too many dodgy connections don't help and various other issues I don't like re pvp PL. I'd prefer pve <> pvp in SL for builds but that's just my opinion, see thread I made re PvP in B*. Very interested to see SL iteration.

[OverkillED]

This is a bearutiful debate-thing. You guys are like bear geniuses debating about tanking.

[WhoIsThis]

Last I was really into pvp bow-bears were all the rage; don't play pvp much since those times. Too many dodgy connections don't help and various other issues I don't like re pvp PL. I'd prefer pve <> pvp in SL for builds but that's just my opinion, see thread I made re PvP in B*. Very interested to see SL iteration.

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

[Ellyidol]

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

I agree, the strength of the bear shows the most in PvP, IMO.

BUT, it's one of the hardest to use too, being the only one with one ranged attack (assuming melee), or two if you're dex (beckon + normal hits).

[ratava]

I think that you are going to have to play some PvP before casting any kind of judgment on bears. PvP is interesting because the enemies are tougher than anything you'll find in PvE, there's no access to potions, etc. and it is a real place where a bear can demonstrate their usefulness. Barring that, tough levels are also a good place to go.

Well that's exactly what I wanted to find out from this thread. I've been put of progressing bears each time and wondered if 1) Ppl think they become better 2) If like most tanks they are tricky to get good at ESP. High levels & 3) If they suffer in. PvP if spec'd Pure Tank.

Also curious what other ppl got from the bear, same as me or opposite and if there was anything they definitely wanted improved in the Commando.

If we see some differences with the Commando then I might give that a better shot.

[TheLaw]

I think that it's pretty unfair for Avians in PL to get benefit from being pure dex, and mages too from pure int. but the bears don't. I hope that they get to harvest the best from their starting attribute, and a tanker/COMMANDO can go full Str without losing out on anything.

[Irconfuzed]

After this thread and thinking on the commando class, I decided to take my lvl 45 PL bear and respec enough DEX to use a gun/bow and the rest in STR. My thinking being that a Commando in SL will likely be a tank that makes use of ranged weapons and it might give me some ideas.
Aside from being squishy, I found my role across several runs hadn't changed much. With beckon I could control the pace of the group and each pack of mobs, and im amazed at the dps I can put out. I actually like it a lot and its got me playing my bear again. The only downside so far is boss fights. Try tanking a boss and it leads to a quick death.
Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there. I've never considered a ranged tank with knockback, stuns, and other mob control skills, but the idea of it intrigues me and could lead to a new tanking style. I can't wait to see what all STS has come up with for the Commando.

[ratava]

After this thread and thinking on the commando class, I decided to take my lvl 45 PL bear and respec enough DEX to use a gun/bow and the rest in STR. My thinking being that a Commando in SL will likely be a tank that makes use of ranged weapons and it might give me some ideas.
Aside from being squishy, I found my role across several runs hadn't changed much. With beckon I could control the pace of the group and each pack of mobs, and im amazed at the dps I can put out. I actually like it a lot and its got me playing my bear again. The only downside so far is boss fights. Try tanking a boss and it leads to a quick death.
Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there. I've never considered a ranged tank with knockback, stuns, and other mob control skills, but the idea of it intrigues me and could lead to a new tanking style. I can't wait to see what all STS has come up with for the Commando.

SAME! Completely agree, ranged tank of sorts would be very interesting.

I'm totally sold on the Engi and Op and this thread is certainly looking at what could make a great Commando... we've done well to knock out 4pgs without anything on the Commando to go and just ppl's expertise on the Bear in PL

[elianel]

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