Ah, thank you.Originally Posted by Zeus
Ah, thank you.
I only see crying.
In my opinion this is a bad idea mainly because it takes 5 people to be able to clash, certain classes aren't available at all times this would kill pvp in general. I would be forced to leave the room if a tank isn't available to call or end up getting ganged. I wanna play with friends and this class restriction would strict me from having fun , pvp should be all about fun this will just ruin it in my opinion. Sts should look at balancing the classes , as for example the tanks glint stone set 3 axe pulls is just too much rouges cannot handle it enables them to freely move around in pvp , as for mages they can defend themselves by simply using their shield ability and save their butts from getting kicked. These are the types of things that should be looked at instead of restricting classes.
As an additional section on this, could you point out what you believe it will take to balance all classes in PvP.
Balance meaning, 1 class being as necessary as the next to have on a team.
I had pointed out in another thread regarding the reason for the lack of usefulness of rogues. Basically it results from the increased survivability of tanks while on HoR/Jugg and mages while on Arcane Shield. Alone the tank or mage is balanced vs a rogue but when stacked in increasing numbers allows for a shield and cover rotation that a rogue will find almost impossible to break without the help of another mage or tank. This here is the issue: a rogue needs the support of another class and will suffer with rogue stacking, while tanks and mages are the opposite.
I had suggested team debuffs for class stacking in PvP, the specific debuff corresponding to the class being stacked. I really don't know what would happen if you were to increase rogue survivability in some way. We already had problems with this before our armor got nerfed. In the past, before the buffing of mage shield/tank Jugg, the usefulness of rogues was that they could crit hard and break a tank's jugg or a mage's shield. But since everyone complained that this was too gamebreaking and relies too little on skill, tanks got their Jugg buffed to the point that (apart from using Korruption) once under Jugg they're near unkillable.
I'm not in favor of returning to the old status quo though because of the level of unhappiness involved. However the root of the problem now as I've said lies in the ability (or lack thereof) of the rogue to break through all the shields and damage reduction capabilities of the other two classes especially when stacked in increasing numbers. If there is a way to mitigate this then there would be class balance in PvP.
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I see, from what i have gathered, correct me if i'm wrong:
1). Rogue damage has become insignificant in team PvP scenario's, be it from the reduction of damage in PvP or something else. Rogues no longer have the damage to ward off or scare opponents targeting them specifically with the intent to erase the rogue from the battlefield.
2). Unlike the other 2 classes, rogues don't have an effective defensive countermeasure against attempts to erase them from the battlefield. Warriors have the juggernaut and horn of renew skills. Mages have a shield that grants a 2 second invulnerability and significant reduction in damage taken.
I presume the razor shield skill for rogues does not work as such a countermeasure like those for warriors and mages?
Will answer according to your points:
1. Rogue damage is insignificant in the sense that it poses no threat to the Juggernaut skill of an equally geared, equally-skilled tank. In a 1v1 setting this is still manageable in view that a rogue can use mobility to kite round the tank and make him miss hits, basically surviving until the Juggernaut buff expires before attempting to nuke the tank. At endgame though, Axe Throw and the Dragon Hunter Sword proc make this even harder to do. In clashes it is even worse because with proper timing and coordination between tanks, a tank can be under an almost constant shield and with all the chaos and movement in a clash, it is very difficult to pinpoint a tank which is in his window of vulnerability and take it down.
2. In contrast, a rogue is always vulnerable, always exposed because there is no viable damage reduction/shield skill that we possess. Razor shield requires maximum mastery to reach 10% damage reduction and even then it does not measure up to the damage reduction/absorption capabilities of Juggernaut or Arcane Shield.
Why do we fall? So that we can rise again.
i agree with you on survivability of the mage and warr when they are together is the issue as well as when they stack single class
but %5 reduction isnt gonna do anything because core problem is the skill combinations of 2 class as you told in detail + the well known infamous sword proc and 3 axe throws
rogue has no cc or defensive utility and doing about a damage little bit higher than mage and its not aoe
im wondering myself what changed after good old days of 31 cap pvp before the release of blood rubys and fangs, I believe that balance can be achieved again
I think this is a great idea. However, this would lead to the collapse of one of the major end game PvP guilds who have been relying on mage and tank stacks since 46 cap, if not before that.
Good idea. Hope this is considered.
Yes, and if you stack only Mage or warrior on other class then the rogue on other side has no chance.
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Great discussion guys, let's take the specific rogue class discussion to the 'On Balance - Rogue class role in team PvP' thread.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if this issue can ever be solved. It seems that from the beginning, rogues were designed to deliver large amounts of single target damage, while mages were designed to deliver damage to a group. When things were "balanced" in team PvP, a mage did not stand a chance against a rogue or warrior 1-on-1 since there was no "group" to damage, and mage's single target damage was much lower than that of a rogue.
So then to make things balanced in 1-on-1 PvP, they have now upset the balance in team PvP. From an objective standpoint, I'm not sure you can ever have both types of PvP balanced. The problem really is mages, not rogues. If you make them powerful enough to compete in 1-on-1 situations, then they become too powerful in team PvP.
In the early days of PvP, the advantage the mage had over the other classes was the stun. But over time, with the addition of Nekro and other stun immunities, the stun became less and less reliable. So to compensate for this loss of power, mages received higher and higher damage stats, and now we are in the situation we are in. Either they are too powerful in team PvP, or not powerful enough in 1-on-1 PvP.
Last edited by Energizeric; 07-17-2016 at 08:17 AM.
Well, Team PvP is more of a function in this game rather than 1v1 PvP. That's why I never really cared for 1v1 balance, because its something that will never really be achieved without some heavy compromises.
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I also wondered the same. PvP Duelling is a 'recent' feature added to the game, so why is it that the developers continue working hard at balancing classes in a 1v1 scenario e.g. the rock, paper, scissors theory?
Team PvP has been the main PvP aspect in this game from the beginning. This should be the main focus of PvP balance.
Team deathmatch.
Capture the flag (as a team).
I personally would like to see more effort go into balancing PvP from a 'group' perspective, because (as pointed out by Zeus), I have yet to see a successful 1v1 PvP class balance in games. The 'selfish' attribute humans have to be better than another makes it impossible.
Last edited by Breakingbadxx; 07-17-2016 at 08:44 AM.
I think, since PvP balance has been wrecked, it'd a good choice to have a week without k/ds to test things and see which option would be an effective method to fix the issue.
Tbh, in my point of view, rogues are a anti person class, if we make it strong on clashes, that'd would render it an all-rounded class, but still, the 46 sword, sigh.
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I agree. Perhaps the solution is to buff rogues a bit, and then nerf them ONLY in duels where they clearly have that high single-target damage advantage.
I wouldn't mind that.
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Wouldn't it be better to nerf mages and then further nerf rogues in ONLY duels since you previously stated, and i agree, the problem is with mages and tanks, not rogues.
Yes, but nobody likes being nerfed...so I'm sure people would like to avoid that. That being said, this is the first time I've seen a mage say that mages need to be nerfed. Props!
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