Class restriction in PvP

[Kriticality]

Only thing I'm getting from this thread is that curse needs to be buffed. To that point, I agree.

On a more serious note, I need to think about this some. Off the top of my head, I think that rogues should have only 25% damage nerf as opposed to the 50% that the rest of us enjoy at end game. Ofc it can scale the same way as it already does to twink levels. This will reward team play as there is a lot of skill in keeping the rogue alive as well. Giving the armor back doesn't seem that it would help as I'm pretty sure 2 mages will just crush the rogue anyway. Increased damage makes everyone think twice about approaching those rogues though. They currently seem like glass without cannon.


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[Safiras]

The reduction of damage nerf for rogues means we go back to the pre-ASnerf era.

Rogues survivability issues lie nott in nott being able to dish out damage but rather in how easily they can be hunted down and killed in a clash.

This can easily be resolved with increasing the number of opponents a rogue can shadownpierce through, thereby increasing HP return as well providing some kind of dodge and/or armour buff to rogues for when they come out of a SP.

No lol I do not want to shadow pierce through multiple targets then getting axed and stunned and nuked along the way. That is how the bad rogues who do not know their skills well play. The reason why rogues die so much is because we cannot survive deep inside the clash zone, not like tanks with jugg and mages with shield.

[Kriticality]

The reduction of damage nerf for rogues means we go back to the pre-ASnerf era.

Rogues survivability issues lie nott in nott being able to dish out damage but rather in how easily they can be hunted down and killed in a clash.

This can easily be resolved with increasing the number of opponents a rogue can shadownpierce through, thereby increasing HP return as well providing some kind of dodge and/or armour buff to rogues for when they come out of a SP.

Dude mages and tanks survivability got boosted to heaven. We could use a little aimed shot checking again. Rogue won't be wanted anyway with armor. The HEAL cycle is what make tank and Mage stack so powerful. That includes shield and jugg. Rogue offers nothing towards that better than tank or Mage. What it offers or used to offer is tons of damage to force early heals and shields for fear of being destroyed or better yet sniping out one of the healers. 50% damage is not enough for rogues now. And ofc you know I'm not a rogue.


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[Kriticality]

How does increasing rogue damage output help class balance?

More increased damage means rogues will be back to the alpha class spot in PvP.

Currently PvP has the rock paper scissors cycle when it comes to one v one, increasing rogue damage will be leaving mages helpless in the fights and warriors asking for another jugg buff. From my days playing a rogue in twink PvP, I could SP from behind walls to get my health back and deal damage to enemies without finding myself in the thick of the fight, don't know if they've fixed that yet or if it's just ping playing games with the screen. What else besides decreasing damage nerf on rogues is there? Adding some kind of pet that cancels buffs? Tweaking skills to provide added survivability? For as far as I can tell rogue issue in clashes sprouts from mage shield and heal cycle and rogues nott being able to get behind enemies and nuke out their DPSes

It's just not true in max clashes. Before the global nerf people were still playing 2 tank 2 Mage and rogue or 2/3 tanks rest mages. Before the global nerf on damage rogues were useless almost in clash. After nerf if other team doesn't use one they have no place at all. Nobody would voluntarily swap a Mage or tank for a rogue. Rogue being dangerous encourages precision and team play. Not laziness bc the rogue can't kill the once squishy class even in the open. It's not paper rock scissors at the highest gear level. I can kill any tank I've tried in duel and I beat up on rogues too.

Again the reason why they are not used is bc what they offer more than mages is slightly more damage only. Armor debuffs are everywhere with nekro and other mechanisms. Our HEAL cycle is better for team than anything a rogue offers. It's not possible for them to survive unless you make them tanks. 200 armor ain't doing anything. Even with new gear and mm eggs on sams with nekro aa are useless. Rogue is supposed to offer damage. Right now they aren't. I'm not sayin they should be able to one shot everything and always break jugg. I'm saying that their damage is far to low for anyone to consider using them in serious end game clashes. And ofc health packs compared to horn and Mage heal is a joke. They need to offer not a little but a lot more to be included. Give that rogue 400 armor and the same damage and two mages will still 100% melt the rogue. They can't survive the onslaught. Not to mention all the dot from sword and fb. For rogue the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't have to be extreme. But mages with 50% health and shield still active should have serious reservations before charging a rogue. I have no hesitation at all anymore in any kind of team setting. As I said before, they're all glass. No cannon.


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[Anyona]

Rather than boosting their damage, it'd be better to improve a rogues utility. Once they can offer something to the team, they'll be useful once again as the reason mages are favoured is due to their heal+survivability.



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[Kriticality]

Rather than boosting their damage, it'd be better to improve a rogues utility. Once they can offer something to the team, they'll be useful once again as the reason mages are favoured is due to their heal+survivability.



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Only if it can interrupt heal cycle will it be useful I think. Maybe an upgrade called heal shatter or and arrow that has change to "stun" the heal ability. If they don't help break the heal cycle or become better healers than tanks or mages then there is likely no place for them. Not sure why everyone so salty about rogue damage. They were perfectly fine at 46 and 56 before global nerf. Still mostly useless in clash.


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[Zeus]

If rogue damage was perfectly fine why did they have to "fix" jugg?

Sorcerers broke jugg, not just rogues. Jugg would have been needed to be fixed regardless, so it's not really a valid point. However now, since jugg can absorb huge amounts of damage...

Papa is right. Sorcerers, even the lesser geared ones, can rush a rogue in a team environment and wipe them without much effort. Once the nekro shield is gone, the rogue simply will not survive. I have asked for armor in the past, that was in reservation. I still have doubts that even with armor returned, rogues will still face the same issue.

Rogue simply has nothing to offer in a team based situation and therefore, something needs to be introduced that makes them beneficial and crucial to have in a team.

For example, if a team could start going without a warrior...that would be broken, right? This is the same thing here.

[Ireliaa]

its not getting armor back issue i dont think its gonna solve anything problem is in the core of skills, and procs. You cant break jugger there is no window of killing when stacking occurs and by the time you catch window you most likely be dead by then

i also dont think %5 Damage reduction gonna solve anything when stacking single class per each stack, since damage is not the problem there its the survivability of combined mage warr's

as people told noone likes nerf, then this leaves us with a buff but even that comesits own consequences, if rogue damage gets buff, rogue 1 shot rogue scenario occurs same goes for mage

so on final note i believe reverting back skills procs etc or adjust it in the pvp envoronment as its used to be should be the solution, im saying the time pre arcane weapon intrduction lvl 46
rogue mage warr was fine back then

[Ireliaa]

It's just not true in max clashes. Before the global nerf people were still playing 2 tank 2 Mage and rogue or 2/3 tanks rest mages. Before the global nerf on damage rogues were useless almost in clash. After nerf if other team doesn't use one they have no place at all. Nobody would voluntarily swap a Mage or tank for a rogue. Rogue being dangerous encourages precision and team play. Not laziness bc the rogue can't kill the once squishy class even in the open. It's not paper rock scissors at the highest gear level. I can kill any tank I've tried in duel and I beat up on rogues too.

Again the reason why they are not used is bc what they offer more than mages is slightly more damage only. Armor debuffs are everywhere with nekro and other mechanisms. Our HEAL cycle is better for team than anything a rogue offers. It's not possible for them to survive unless you make them tanks. 200 armor ain't doing anything. Even with new gear and mm eggs on sams with nekro aa are useless. Rogue is supposed to offer damage. Right now they aren't. I'm not sayin they should be able to one shot everything and always break jugg. I'm saying that their damage is far to low for anyone to consider using them in serious end game clashes. And ofc health packs compared to horn and Mage heal is a joke. They need to offer not a little but a lot more to be included. Give that rogue 400 armor and the same damage and two mages will still 100% melt the rogue. They can't survive the onslaught. Not to mention all the dot from sword and fb. For rogue the best defense is a good offense. It doesn't have to be extreme. But mages with 50% health and shield still active should have serious reservations before charging a rogue. I have no hesitation at all anymore in any kind of team setting. As I said before, they're all glass. No cannon.


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thanks for being realistic

maybe just maybe reducing mage and warr dmg by %25 more when rogue stays the same instead of %25 buff on rogue damage can solve it, that way one shot aim kill whithout able to react problem doesnt occur

but i cannot predict what would it do on mage vs warr scenario

[Breakingbadxx]

Returning the % of armor that was taken from the rogue class initially would be useless in solving the current issue due to such armor already being insignificant before it was taken?

Removing that % of armor made something that was already a problem (low survivability in team PvP situations) even worse?

Is this correct?

If so, the solution being sought here goes beyond returning or even slightly increasing armor.

[Zeus]

Returning the % of armor that was taken from the rogue class initially would be useless in solving the current issue due to such armor already being insignificant before it was taken?

Removing that % of armor made something that was already a problem (low survivability in team PvP situations) even worse?

Is this correct?

If so, the solution being sought here goes beyond returning or even slightly increasing armor.

Yes, the issue was there before our armor was nerfed. It just made it so much worse once the armor was gone.

[yubaraj]

I want to say something about class restriction too.

Anyone ever wondered why CTF map is dead at endgame. I don't have any idea but I can only guess.

Class restriction we are talking about may turn TDM to another CTF that's a possibility too. I don't want to go in detail but it may negatively effect the whole PvP community.

I hope trying to give a rogue in a PvP group situation by limiting class may not destroy the whole PvP experience in a sum.

I am just pointing out the other side of coin. no disrespect to anyone.

[Safiras]

I want to say something about class restriction too.

Anyone ever wondered why CTF map is dead at endgame. I don't have any idea but I can only guess.

Class restriction we are talking about may turn TDM to another CTF that's a possibility too. I don't want to go in detail but it may negatively effect the whole PvP community.

I hope trying to give a rogue in a PvP group situation by limiting class may not destroy the whole PvP experience in a sum.

I am just pointing out the other side of coin. no disrespect to anyone.

CTF is dead because one or more PvP guilds will enter a random map and start killing people. Then when the opposition fights back and wins, they send in one tank, then another, and another until the tank stack wins. This is the result of no class restrictions. Arranged PvP clashes involving rogues are made at the goodwill of the mages and tanks on both sides. A rogue in a team is always one too many.

TDM has already begun to look like CTF because the same guilds that tank stack in CTF also do the same in TDM. Asking them to not stack tanks is like trying to breathe in a vaacum. Their interest is in crushing you in PvP, why would these KDR hungry players let you have a chance at winning? The only reason why TDM has not died yet is because the tank stack is slightly less effective due to the open nature of the map which allows for more routes of escape. But if the issue of rogue survivability and tank stacking is not resolved then I assure you, PvP will have no place for rogues for the foreseeable future.

[yubaraj]

CTF is dead because one or more PvP guilds will enter a random map and start killing people. Then when the opposition fights back and wins, they send in one tank, then another, and another until the tank stack wins. This is the result of no class restrictions. Arranged PvP clashes involving rogues are made at the goodwill of the mages and tanks on both sides. A rogue in a team is always one too many.

TDM has already begun to look like CTF because the same guilds that tank stack in CTF also do the same in TDM. Asking them to not stack tanks is like trying to breathe in a vaacum. Their interest is in crushing you in PvP, why would these KDR hungry players let you have a chance at winning? The only reason why TDM has not died yet is because the tank stack is slightly less effective due to the open nature of the map which allows for more routes of escape. But if the issue of rogue survivability and tank stacking is not resolved then I assure you, PvP will have no place for rogues for the foreseeable future.

Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

[Zeus]

Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

It didn't buff rogue's damage, you're forgetting that damage was nerfed 40% and then global damage is applied. That is still lower damage than what we had before.

[Safiras]

Posting this as a pic as this mobile browser deletes my comment when I try to edit.

I just wanted to add that this global Nerf thing has actually buffed rogue damage in PvP while needing other class damage.

Class restriction is something I am opposed to in the strictest sense, because as the post you quoted said it places impediments on the ability of randoms to fill up a room. I had mentioned the introduction of team debuffs in the event of stacking classes on a team (third time I've mentioned this) as an alternative to restricting classes.

And yes I am well aware of the theoretical effect of rogue's damage being "buffed" relative to other classes as prior to the global nerf other classes didn't have an automatic damage nerf in PvP like rogues did. However, do you see this effect being translated into greater rogue usefulness in PvP? No. Clearly there is something more complicated than just increased rogue damage that will fix this current imbalance in PvP.

[yubaraj]

It didn't buff rogue's damage, you're forgetting that damage was nerfed 40% and then global damage is applied. That is still lower damage than what we had before.

Before this global Nerf applied rogues were suffering from damage Nerf in PvP which further restricted getting pet happiness damage buff as far as I know. Suppose we were using nekro at that time so mage and warrior were getting 25% more damage than rogues. Correct me if I am wrong?

So mages and warrior were enjoying that damage buff. When this global Nerf happened all the classes damage that's done is reduced by 40%. Rogues are no more suffering the Nerf that was applicable in PvP. So what I was trying to say is that rogue got their damage back.

So if you look at the bigger picture mage and warrior does not have damage advantage that they used to have so it's a Nerf. And rogues Nerf lifted out so I guess I can call it a buff .

I hope that clarify what I was trying to say.

[Ireliaa]

You know all this theorotical solution talk asside they should make a test server or kdrless pvp like before to test this issue out and try the suggestions one by one

otherwise its gonna be useless without seeing the outcome

[Breakingbadxx]

You know all this theorotical solution talk asside they should make a test server or kdrless pvp like before to test this issue out and try the suggestions one by one

otherwise its gonna be useless without seeing the outcome

That would be convienent and save time on the long-run.

[Zeus]

Before this global Nerf applied rogues were suffering from damage Nerf in PvP which further restricted getting pet happiness damage buff as far as I know. Suppose we were using nekro at that time so mage and warrior were getting 25% more damage than rogues. Correct me if I am wrong?

So mages and warrior were enjoying that damage buff. When this global Nerf happened all the classes damage that's done is reduced by 40%. Rogues are no more suffering the Nerf that was applicable in PvP. So what I was trying to say is that rogue got their damage back.

So if you look at the bigger picture mage and warrior does not have damage advantage that they used to have so it's a Nerf. And rogues Nerf lifted out so I guess I can call it a buff .

I hope that clarify what I was trying to say.

They didn't get their damage back in the sense that rogues still hit less than before. The only difference was they were the least affected on the stat page by the nerf. Rogues lose about 15% damage technically compared to warrior and sorcerer's 40%. However, that actually helped sorcerers and warrior out because it gave them more time to react to big damage and took away from the glass cannon aspect.

So in short, that rebalance didn't help at all for end game. I know, however, that it did help at twink level. Why? They got a damage buff! So, they did get the glass cannon aspect of them. Yes, rogues hit hard there but that's exactly why they have a role in PvP. If their damage can be out healed by a warrior and Mage stack then there's no point to having a rogue.