Why Force Shield and Protection are a waste of points

[noneo]

Energy at rank 5? Noneo, if that's true, you may want to update your guide.

Thanks, I already updated.

Force Shield gives its +2 M/s buff at level 4, not level 5.

And thank you as well, I will update my guide again

[noneo]

If Revive's hidden buff lasts 1 minute and costs 20 energy

That is true, Revive lasts 1 minute unaffected by damage taken, and things of that sort. Whereas Force Shield can sometimes be be destroyed in mere seconds if it is cast incorrectly.

Overall, it seems like the discussion now between FS and Rev is based off of overall M/S rate.

I want to just compare a few different builds for these two skills.

Scenario 1: You will spend an initial 10 Mana on Revive (lvl 3), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 4) you see:
+1 M/S + 2 M/S = 3 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 90+30 mana = 120 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 100 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 7 skill points

Scenario 2: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 4).
+1 M/S + 2 M/S = 3 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 90+30 mana = 120 mana - (casted mana use = 30 mana)
= 90 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 5 skill points

Scenario 3: You will spend an initial 10 Mana on Revive (lvl 3), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
+1 M/S + 1 M/S = 2 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 60+30 mana = 90 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 70 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 4 skill points

Scenario 4: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
+1 M/S + 1 M/S = 2 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 60+30 mana = 90 mana - (casted mana use = 30 mana)
= 60 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 2 skill points

---

To me, scenario 3 is pointless. You use 2 more skill points just to give you an increase of 10 mana. Not really worth it.

Also, (using the same logic) scenario 1 doesn't make much sense either. You use up 2 more skill points than scenario 2 just to give you 10 more mana per minute.

So my recommendations would be to use Scenario 4 or Scenario 2. These use 2 and 5 skill points respectively, and will offer you either 60 or 90 mana per minute. This will allow you to spend these points on better DoT or healing skills that will really help you. (and honestly, if you use a couple powerpacks here and there, whatever).

[IBNobody]

That's a handy simplification, Noneo.

I would suggest...

Scenario 5: You will spend an initial 20 Mana on Revive (lvl 1), and 0 Mana on Force Shield (not learned).
+1 M/S + 0 M/S = 1 M/S which lasts for 30 seconds, and then 1 M/S for 30 seconds, giving you a theoretical 30+30 mana = 60 mana - (casted mana use = 20 mana)
= 40 Mana gained in one minute, Utilize 1 skill points

...and...

Scenario 6: You will spend an initial 0 Mana on Revive (not learned), and 10 Mana on Force Shield (lvl 1).
Your party will wipe because you didn't invest in the single-most important skill.
= Who cares! You've failed at being an Engineer!

(Sorry... Couldn't resist.)

[kamikazees]

I agree that Protection is useless right now (am hoping for a change though), but Force Shield is very useful. It is a great skill for the mana regen and for the shield itself.

I look at it this way. Force Shield levels 4 and up (2 m/s) needs to be active 5 seconds to recoup its cost. Revive is the only other skill that recoups its cost, and that takes 20 seconds. I can use Force Shield and never have to energy stim on Guardian runs. I cannot do that with just Revive. Because stim packs are expensive to a poor player like me, that means Force Shield = awesome.

But it's not just that. So what if it gets destroyed? Force Shield is a great spike preventer. If Force Shield does not last 5 seconds, it is because you are being attacked. At level 4, something destroying it has hit you for about 65 damage (55 + whatever your armor absorbs). At level 6, something destroying it has hit you for about 85 damage (75 + whatever your armor absorbs). My lvl 26 full int Engineer in Sunwalker eq has 273 hit points. 65 damage is about 24% of her health. 75 damage is about 31% of her health. Force Shield has saved me many times from a Vular knockdown, or Guardian's massive hits. I can usually get 3 to 4 casts of it fighting Guardian. It gives Empathy or Transferrence time to tick, or me time to use a health stim if needed, or kite. And it can do it again in 45 seconds. How often do you think Protection will absorb 85 damage in 45 seconds? Not often.

If it lasts its whole duration, it's done its job. If it doesn't last, it's also done its job. The real debate is whether to boost it all the way to 6, or leave it at 4.

[IBNobody]

But it's not just that. So what if it gets destroyed? Force Shield is a great spike preventer. If Force Shield does not last 5 seconds, it is because you are being attacked. At level 4, something destroying it has hit you for about 65 damage (55 + whatever your armor absorbs). At level 6, something destroying it has hit you for about 85 damage (75 + whatever your armor absorbs). My lvl 26 full int Engineer in Sunwalker eq has 273 hit points. 65 damage is about 24% of her health. 75 damage is about 31% of her health. Force Shield has saved me many times from a Vular knockdown, or Guardian's massive hits. I can usually get 3 to 4 casts of it fighting Guardian. It gives Empathy or Transferrence time to tick, or me time to use a health stim if needed, or kite. And it can do it again in 45 seconds. How often do you think Protection will absorb 85 damage in 45 seconds? Not often.

I did not see it blocking damage as you say it blocks damage. I received damage, and then it popped. I didn't see it act as a shield, but I could be wrong. If you have points in the skill, can you confirm on a solo map that it absorbs damage?

[kamikazees]

I did not see it blocking damage as you say it blocks damage. I received damage, and then it popped. I didn't see it act as a shield, but I could be wrong. If you have points in the skill, can you confirm on a solo map that it absorbs damage?

Does it not block damage? I thought it did because the skill description says, "the shield bursts when it takes xx damage." But I've never tested it. If that's not the case then a good chunk of second part of my post is inaccurate. I would still take it to 4 points for the 2 m/s (which is where I have it now), but I would probably never go higher than that.

I have a theory that the harder the enemy hits, the more that armor reduces the hit. I am still trying to test this theory. If true, it may explain why I thought I noticed a difference in spike damage when I've used Force Shield. Hopefully I can get that answer one way or another soon.

[Raulur]

I agree about force shield being unnecessary. Dump 2 more points into revive, you will have more range and less cost. Yes you might have to use a few power stims, but thats no big deal.

I do however respectfully disagree about protection. I do not need numbers to tell me when protection is not active on Guardian runs, I can tell by how much everyone's health is fluxuating. It does make a difference on the last 2 maps of every campaign, and you will never convince me otherwise.

If you just want to grind the first few maps over and over, then no protection is not needed. The data just seems too incomplete to jump into conclusions at this time.

[IBNobody]

Does it not block damage? I thought it did because the skill description says, "the shield bursts when it takes xx damage." But I've never tested it. If that's not the case then a good chunk of second part of my post is inaccurate. I would still take it to 4 points for the 2 m/s (which is where I have it now), but I would probably never go higher than that.

I tested it, but you've got me second guessing my test method. I saw damage numbers onscreen, but maybe I didn't notice my health bar not moving? I don't recall. It would be pretty easy to test - just go to Dynastar, fire up FS, and get hit a bunch of times.

I have a theory that the harder the enemy hits, the more that armor reduces the hit. I am still trying to test this theory. If true, it may explain why I thought I noticed a difference in spike damage when I've used Force Shield. Hopefully I can get that answer one way or another soon.

If I can help in any way, just send me a PM. I'd love to contribute to your research.

[WhoIsThis]

So my recommendations would be to use Scenario 4 or Scenario 2. These use 2 and 5 skill points respectively, and will offer you either 60 or 90 mana per minute. This will allow you to spend these points on better DoT or healing skills that will really help you. (and honestly, if you use a couple powerpacks here and there, whatever).

The problem is that you are assuming that the shield will last for the full duration. At shield level 1 on a guardian run, that's pretty improbable. I suppose that the incentive to add more shield points is that it can last a bit more. Whether this justifies it though is open to debate and probably depends on player preferences.

Protection though I think is not worth it. It offers little protection against what it needs most - high burst damage from Vulars and bosses, despite the slope scaling. Here, shield offers at least some (albeit limited) protection. Against ordinary mobs, who don't do lots of damage per hit, but swarm, leading to multiple low damage hits, the 1-2 less damage per hit will have a noticeable effect. But as mentioned before, against those opponents, you really don't need protection because you have time to react. Against things like the Vular though ... it's another matter. Deaths can be extremely rapid, and here 1-2 damage isn't going to make any real difference. Against mobs though, it can be helpful. The real question is, does it justify sacrificing points elsewhere? Imo, no. I maxed damage output because the longer an enemy is alive, the more damage the team sustains.

Edit:
@ OP:
Armor DOES scale as you add more. It's just that you have to add so much armor that you need to add A LOT of armor in order to see a visible effect. Protection the problem is, only adds 60.

[shannong]

I haven't tracked this down to the source yet, but on our guild internal forums, it's reported that in higher levels such as Numa dungeons (or perhaps just on the harder Numa dungeons), the mitigation from armor has been tested out at roughly 33 points of Armor to mitigate 1 point of incoming damage. If true, this means that armor scales differently depending on enemy level or dungeon level etc. If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.

Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

[IBNobody]

I haven't tracked this down to the source yet, but on our guild internal forums, it's reported that in higher levels such as Numa dungeons (or perhaps just on the harder Numa dungeons), the mitigation from armor has been tested out at roughly 33 points of Armor to mitigate 1 point of incoming damage. If true, this means that armor scales differently depending on enemy level or dungeon level etc. If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.

Check Kamakazee's updated armor post.

Maybe...

The current system against a single enemy type is linear, as shown by KK's research.

I've shown that armor increases from (platinum) gear are linear.

My guess is that there's a second system in place that is also linear. I'll update my post if things point to me being wrong.

Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

Maybe... I've also noticed that sometimes specific enemies and bosses at specific map locations spawn at different levels, as represented by their EXP orbs. (Sometimes Vulars are gold, other times they are grey or blue. My level didn't change, so it must be their spawning that changes.) It wouldn't be out of the question. Many MMO's do such scaling.

The problem is, the Guardian has spawned blue to me... I am 100% suee Blue means "lower level" from some EXP testing.

[shannong]

Okay, hadn't read Kamikazee's OP in that thread for a while; only the latest replies. So.... Hmm. My engy is at 26. I guess I need to respec and see for myself what Guardian runs are like (in terms of team health variation) when applying 6 Protection to my team does versus applying no Protection at all. And I also need to try running with no Force Shield and with it at 4 points to see whether I still have sufficient mana regen without that +2m/s.

[IBNobody]

While you're at it, can you test out my assertion on Force Shield not adding a HP buffer?

I'll try to do the same.

[noneo]

Or maybe what's really happening is that armor mitigation is relative to YOUR level versus the ENEMY's level. In other words, in a 1:1 matchup (level-wise), armor does 1 mitigation per X armor points. In a 1<1 matchup, armor does 1+n mitigation per X armor points. In a 1>1 matchup, armor does 1-n mitigaton per X armor points. Or some type of relative scaling like that.

I think this is a very good theory, though I don't think it ever is a 1:1 matchup. We have far too much armor for a lvl 1 mob to do 1:1 damage:armor on us (A mob would have to be hitting over 200 damage everytime, and our armor absorb most of it, I just can't see a mob hitting that high). In Kamakaz' thred he notes that harder/easier maps distribute different armor/damage relationships, so I think the armor in this game is truly dependent on your overall level vs. the mobs overall level (and then take into consideration the bosses and your armor values).

[shannong]

Testing Results (completed):

Level 26. 6 Empathy, 1 Revive, 6 Force Shield, 6 Protect, 6 Transferrence. 20% Dodge. 293 Armor.

Testing methodology: Find a single mob I can survive by spamming Empathy (and/or potions) in various Numa zones, and let it whack on me with Force Shield alone, Protect alone, and both in combination. Watch the incoming damage numbers. Average them in my head. Write down here.


First things first, re IBNobody's assertion that Force Shield does NOT act like a typical "absorb shield" in nearly every other MMO. As far as I can tell, my results confirm his assertion. Your Force Shield does NOT seem to absorb ANY incoming damage. None. You can clearly see this with a weenie mob hitting on you, such as the first set of dogs in Numa OL. You can see that force shield lasting through 3-6 hits from a dog, and not reducing or changing the incoming red/orange hit numbers in any way compared to no Force Shield at all, aside from an expected 2-point per hit decrease from the +120 armor that FS gives you. You can watch your health bar go down with every single incoming hit.

So, it is clear that 6 FS is NOT an absorb shield for 75 points. ALL that FS does is: A) give you +120 armor for as long as it lasts, and B) gives you +2 m/s regen while you still see the bubble around you.


Numa Outer Limits:

First set of dogs. No buffs: 26 per hit. FS only: 24 per hit, lasted 3 hits on average. Protect only: 25 per hit. FS+Protect: 23 per hit while the FS lasted.


Numa Uncharted Ruins:

(thanks to my KoC guildmates who patiently helped me clear mobs and leave some single stragglers to beat on me!)

Whip-flower things. No buffs: 44 per hit, plus constant 2-per-tick DOT. FS only: hard to say because it would only ever last for 2 hits. Usually only 1. Protect only: 43 per hit, plus constant 2-per-tick DOT. FS+Protect: essentially the same as Protect only, because FS is gone in two hits. Overall, what I could see of FS it was indeed mitigating only 1 additional point of damage per hit, at best.

Dogs. No buffs: 30 per hit, plus 2-per-tick DOT about half the time. Low 23. High 38. FS only: hard to say because it would only ever last for 1 or 2 hits. Usually only 1. Protect only: 29 per hit, plus 2-per-tick DOT about half the time. Low 23. High 37. FS+Protect: essentially the same as Protect only. As for the flowers, what I could see of FS was that at best it was mitigating only 1 additional point of damage per hit.

Note: I spent the most time letting that dog in Uncharted Ruins chew on me. Like 10 minutes, with and without my buffs, really looking for whether there was any possible evidence of more misses, more blocks, fewer applications of DOT, fewer instances of criticals, fewer instances of max hits, etc. The result? Nope. All these two buffs do is a simple, straight-up armor buff (in terms of mitigation). There is no "hidden" buff that affects crits or max damage or DOTs.


My Conclusions:

Beyond any shadow of personal doubt, and based on empirical testing with no bias to prove one outcome or the other, I can attest to the fact that Protection AND FS are completely worthless investments of skills points at the moment, with the way that armor currently works and scales. Really, there's no point at all to these two skills, especially after IBNobody did the math to convince me that even if you pop FS at strategic times to run its full 30 seconds for the +2m/s regen, it's still not a worthwhile skill point investment. (look further up in this thread for those details)

I am convinced and respec-ing right now to have 0 in Force Shield, 1 in Protection, 1 in Revive, 6 in Empathy, 6 in Transferrence, at least 1 in Pain, and I haven't decided on the rest yet. Why have 1 point in Protection? For placebo effect if I end up in a PUG group that doesn't know me and know that I'm a damn good healer. Too many people think if they don't see that squared circle under their feet, the healer isn't doing their job.

I guess I should add a bit about why even 1-2 points of extra armor mitigation are "worthless". Yes, if a mob is aggroed on YOU, you might have as many as 6-8 weenies chewing on you. That's works out to AT MOST 12-16 points of damage per tick that Protection is effectively mitigating for you. Now consider that:

A) Not every member of the party receives this onslaught during an alpha spike. Only the tank does (or should, lol). And that tank has his own huge set of mitigation skills to absorb alpha spike. My tank runs with 6 Vigor and 6 Increased Mass and I laugh at UC mob alpha spikes. And with even 3 in Kinetic Reservoir, I pretty much never need to drink a power pot. (I used to run with 6 Kinetic, but that seemed like overkill for my total power burn.)

B) Have you seen how much 6 Empathy ticks for? 60 healing per tick. Have you seen how much a well-timed Transferrence ticks for? A ton. That's what. With all the raw healing output from just ONE healer in your Guardian Run, plus a good tank's native mitigation for spikes, that dinky 12-16 points of mitigation from Protection means bupkes. Nada. Squat. Zip. Zero. It's just insignificant. Trust me: I've been sole healer in many guardian runs and I have no problem keeping the team alive and healthy. I haven't run with Protection for a long time (but I had been using 4 Force Shield for the regen that I thought was better than it really was).

C) Between the healer(s)' AOE from Tranferrence, your own AOE as the tank, the AOE from at least 1 operative, etc. You HAVE seen how quickly a huge mob even in Uncharted Ruins can be decimated, right? We're talking half the mob dead within the first two seconds of the alpha strike. I've seen this time and again. So between the fast AOE killspam and the two major healing ticks working in your favor plus your own commando's resiliance with Vigor and Increased Mass, again, what is this paltry 12-16 of mitigation from Protection mean in the face of all that?

[kamikazees]

If true, this also means that armor is *more* valuable the higher you go.

I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

[shannong]

I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

Increase Mass is uber. Well, it is if you put 6 points into it. With 6 Vigor and 6 Increased Mass (per Punktate's advice and build concept), you can laugh in the face of any alpha strike in Uncharted Ruins even if your single healer in the guardian run is lagging behind or distracted. I was laughing this way when my commo was level 21, and when she gets her level 24-25 greens fully equipped she'll be laughing even harder.

[shannong]

I have updated my armor study again, and I think this statement is true. The harder the enemy, the more armor protects you. I don't know if "harder" means "hits you harder" or "is a high level," but check it out (in my Signature). I now have a successful test on a Vular from Uncharted Ruins!

It proves armor is *more* valuable to higher you go, but I am still not convinced that the armor we can get from Protection or the Dura-Implant is all that valuable. But compare that to Increase Mass and we may have a different story...

And to speak specifically to Vular, during my testing (above a few posts), I watched my guildies who were helping me clear out the big vular roaches so I could get to some doggies and flowers. With or without protection, the vular were hitting the 25/26 commandos in the group for about 60-ish per hit. What's 1-2 points mitigation added to that (from Protect)? That's a miniscule amount of extra protection against hard-hitting mini-bosses. Negligible.

[kamikazees]

And to speak specifically to Vular, during my testing (above a few posts),...the vular were hitting the 25/26 commandos in the group for about 60-ish per hit. What's 1-2 points mitigation added to that (from Protect)? ...Negligible.

Max Protection actually reduces the Vular damage by 3 points (3.33), but you are right it is negligible. The mob hits for 86.5 damage. Full lvl 25 Commando gear is 400 armor, so that reduces Vular damage by 22 points, to 64 average damage, which appears to be exactly what you saw. Add max Increased Mass (+300 armor) and a Commando can reduce Vular damage by another 16.67 damage, down to 47 or 48, which is about 1/2.

[shannong]

Ya I think the real takeaways from this thread so far are that:

The amount of mana you "earn" per skill point invested in Force Shield is very inefficient use of your skills points; the total return is negligible, especially at harder levels where typical mob encounters mean you can rarely keep your FS up and running full time.

Force Shield pops in just two hits at most pretty much every where in harder levels, so its paltry 2-4 points of incoming damage mitigation is ephemeral.

The amount of mitigation from Protection is a tiny percentage in the larger scheme of things and there are much better, more effective things to spend skill points on that will actually help your party survive better. For example, I'm amazed at how many engineers I've encountered who are level 25-26 doing guardian runs and I never see them pop a Transferrence. What-What-What??? At least half the engies I've ended up in PUG groups with from 16 onward (with my commando and operative) would use only empathy to heal and would answer "no" when I asked them if they had Transferrence. (Shakes head.)