PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Greetings Arlorians!

We've appreciated all feedback players have been posted after the corrections to Aimed Shot as well as the current state of Rogues in PvP. Due to the nature of the thread, we have taken another look at overall PvP balance based on the issues that players have brought up, and have found something we want to address.

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.
3) The duration of the invulnerability upgrade on Horn of Renew will be reduced (in PvP only) from 2/3 seconds to 1/1.5 seconds.
4) Reduce the amount of Nekro's Arcane Ability Damage Reduction in PvP
5) Allow Juggernaut's upgrade to work even inside of a Korruption Pool (there's debate whether this is considered healing 'over time')


While this is our current plan, because of the nature of PvP, we are looking for feedback from the players on this. If the discussion goes well this will be released next Thursday's patch!

See you on Blood Beach,
-STSVroom

[Zeus]

Yay!

Seems like rogue will have a place again.

[Anyona]

I'm actually done, nerfing the other classes is not what should happen. Especially when in two combos my arcane shield is broken by a rogue. I guess I can expect to be comboed now after the 2sec immunity.

How about you increase rogues survivability and the utility they offer in a team environment rather than nerfing the other classes?

Also, the numbers you're using are completely wrong. Change the number to 10,000 damage and that's how much rogues will deal without any global nerfs and damage reduction.

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[Zeus]

I'm actually done, nerfing the other classes is not what should happen. Especially when in two combos my arcane shield is broken by a rogue. I guess I can expect to be comboed now after the 2sec immunity.

How about you increase rogues survivability and the utility they offer in a team environment rather than nerfing the other classes?

Also, the numbers you're using is completely wrong. Change the number to 10,000 damage and that's how much rogues will deal without any global nerfs and shield reduction.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do agree that classes shouldn't be nerfed. I hated when rogue armor got nerfed and was on the verge of quitting. If there's a solution that doesn't involve nerfing warrior and sorcerer, that would be more ideal.

[Anyona]

I do agree that classes shouldn't be nerfed. I hated when rogue armor got nerfed and was on the verge of quitting. If there's a solution that doesn't involve nerfing warrior and sorcerer, that would be more ideal.

I would prefer them to change their armor back.


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[Crackerzseven]

More needs! Geez..we warrs get slaughtered by mages as it is..and new arc bow for rogues picks us off no problem...ahh u want mages n rogues to have more kills at the warrs expense, u already gave us the worse weapons out of all the three classes now this..Woop thx sts..check how many warrs are killed by mages vs the other way round..

[Crackerzseven]

Nerf not needs..lol

[Matheo Hkmat]

meh dont nerf shield rogues will kill us with 1 hit

[resurrected]

I dont think war shield and mage should be nerfed...

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

[Anyona]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

If you want to nerf mages shields, I want my damage buffed and some sort of skill that reduces armor. You're right about the rock paper scissors thing but its the point where rogues with less gear than me are killing me which I don't feel like that should be the case.

I believe all the duel scenario's you mentioned are one sided. And as for skills I use in a duel they're:

(Vs Rogues and Tanks)
Shield
Heal
Light
Ice
(Using nekro)

(Vs Rogues)
Or:
Shield
Light
Fireball
Ice
(Using Shady and Surge)

I feel that Rogue V Mage is very luck dependant on the mages part as you're very dependant on auto attacks landing and critical hits. Where as Tank V Mage it is much easier due to you being able to alternate shields and heal when needed.


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[reiewaun]

If you want to nerf mages shields, I want my damage buffed and some sort of skill that reduces armor. You're right about the rock paper scissors thing but its the point where rogues with less gear than me are killing me which I don't feel like that should be the case.

I believe all the duel scenario's you mentioned are one sided. And as for skills I use in a duel they're:

(Vs Rogues and Tanks)
Shield
Heal
Light
Ice
(Using nekro)

(Vs Rogues)
Or:
Shield
Light
Fireball
Ice
(Using Shady and Surge)

I feel that Rogue V Mage is very luck dependant on the mages part as you're very dependant on auto attacks landing and critical hits. Where as Tank V Mage it is much easier due to you being able to alternate shields and heal when needed.


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U obviously doing something wrong or the rouge u faced wasn't undergeared as u thought

[Anyona]

U obviously doing something wrong or the rouge u faced wasn't undergeared as u thought

Any rogue with the 56 arcanes take you down from 100-30 within a combo.


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[resurrected]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

Actually rogue vs sorc is hard to win if sorc know how to perfect use shield heal nekro/sns circle. I don't know how about now but before it i hardly took down mage. Harder than before aimed " fix "( twink lvl 15)
Skilled mages can take down warriors and its again about timing of circle and skill switch. From my experience mages use 5 skills during fight a warrior or rogue. 3 attack skills with shield and swap one of attack skills to heal when its needed. Warriors do it also like swap chest splitter/skyward smash to venge when they ran out of mana during fight a mage but it all depends on skills.
Skills that are taken by rogues in 1v1 are mostly: aimed shot/nox bolt or razor shield/shadow pierce and combat medic.
Nox bold or razor shield... some rogues use razor shield to not get stunned from mages/warriors when their nekro shield runs out of when they aren't using pet that protects them from stunning.
As for warrior skills are mostly: skyward smash/chest splitter or axe throw/juggernaut or vengeful blood and horn of renew.
Chest splitter vs axe throw... some of warriors use chest splitter for pebble rogue so he/she won't be able to critical hit on him. It also deals more damage in short time than axe. Warriors with some another strategy use axe for take rogue away from packs and then just kill him/her.
As for jugg and venge: venge is useful if you know when to switch it. I seen in vsing war vs mage/rogue that some switch skyward smash for venge when they are out of mana and then switch back to skill. Smart right?
Mage use mostly 5 skills mostly in vs. Y'all can hate me but I'll tell them c(:
Fireball or gale/ice/light/shield/heal
I played mage pvp for a while in twink and endgame(31/36/41/46) and all i can say is mages just need to do as much damage with crit as they can vsing rogues and tanks. As for rogue i started vs with fire ice light and shield. Swapped one of attack skill for heal if needed but when rogue didn't used nekro then it wasn't even needed to use heal. For warriors gale was( maybe still is i dont know current pvp mage 56) pretty useful.

The reason why mage can be protected and rogue not by same tank is that mage have more skills that protects himself from enemies too and it take extra advantage over rogues. War use charged horn and shield comes. When shield gone they use nekro shield. When nekro shield is gone mage use his shield. Before his shield is halfcd his nekro is already ready so he use it. In same time war heal is ready and when mage nekro is done war nekro is ready to use. Mage shield is again ready to use. If team and mage know timing then mage will be under shield and heal over time whole time of clash. Rogue dont have it and thats why rogue is easier target to aim in clash. No shield = stun. Then mage rush you cause you cant do anything and just die. You can always use razor shield mastery in clash/vs but i dont think it will help much and none gonna waste points for it while nox mastery is much more useful and effective.
Questions to rogues
Answers: If i face skilled sorc in clash i cant even come close to him if he know that shield timing cause I'll die anyway. If he don't know shield timing i can try to risk... use nekro aa pray for stun and then rush mage so i can kill him. It works if you lucky so.
Clash skills : aimed shot/ nox bold / shadow pierce and combat medic.

[Ireliaa]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

one of the main reason we cant take out mages while under protection of warr is the infamous arcane sword proc and 3 axe pulls.

we are single target damage when we get pulled or atack from range, enemy warr tanks the damage but when mage atack, their skill hits aoe so same warr cant able to protect us


and as you mentioned its nothing like vs , because mage rogue battle is generally close one where as undergeared warr vs max geared rogue losing because of the arcane sword not the skill set of warrior and if you add glintstone set into this it makes it imposible

so if we compare if we are gonna lose to warrior by far, not close battle( yea warr takes 2 even 3 vs 1 rogue on ease) mage shield reduction is justified

[( DAMAGE )]

one of the main reason we cant take out mages while under protection of warr is the infamous arcane sword proc and 3 axe pulls.

we are single target damage when we get pulled or atack from range, enemy warr tanks the damage but when mage atack, their skill hits aoe so same warr cant able to protect us


and as you mentioned its nothing like vs , because mage rogue battle is generally close one where as undergeared warr vs max geared rogue losing because of the arcane sword not the skill set of warrior and if you add glintstone set into this it makes it imposible

so if we compare if we are gonna lose to warrior by far, not close battle( yea warr takes 2 even 3 vs 1 rogue on ease) mage shield reduction is justified

rogue vs mage is not even a close battle rogues demolish mages in a vs....2nd tank vs rogue isnt as u said...tanks are stronger yes but how come a rogue called temzy or zeus can kill almost any tank in the game???? answer: its called skill!
PS glinstone set is trash in vs

[xxalivexx]

rogue vs mage is not even a close battle rogues demolish mages in a vs....2nd tank vs rogue isnt as u said...tanks are stronger yes but how come a rogue called temzy or zeus can kill almost any tank in the game???? answer: its called skill!
PS glinstone set is trash in vs

Not all what u said is true, ok zues can kill and yes he has skill, i have skill also, and once i enter tdm its not like the old days, like zues said before mages and tanks would think twice before rushing a rog, today in the game its the other way around, rogues are prey. Sorry to tell ya

[Ireliaa]

rogue vs mage is not even a close battle rogues demolish mages in a vs....2nd tank vs rogue isnt as u said...tanks are stronger yes but how come a rogue called temzy or zeus can kill almost any tank in the game???? answer: its called skill!
PS glinstone set is trash in vs

aparently you dont know how to play your mage, its a close battle but rogue has slight advantage please dont lie here a geared mage can easyly take out middle geared rogue

on tank situation a tank with glint set and arcane sword can take 3 rogue at ease i have witnessed many times on tdm
besides zeus never claimed i kill any tank in game, because i know he cant not because lack of skill because the mechanics of the game atm

i dont know where you get your arguments from your back? man im legit pissed

[Luciano Lobo]

This... oh no man... first re-evaluated the new arcane weapons of the warrior and then come back to this. Also, this shouldn't be happening. Nerfing not only 1 but 2 classes to bring balance and please 1 class is not the right way. You are also including health skills. I see that with this changes, mages are gonna be the ones that will suffer more. And for tanks your are gonna make them re-evaluate there whole build (skill points and jewels!!!) once again to accommodate the new jugg vicious formula. Rogues will just have to wait the new nerfs and puff kill everyone. You have to take into consideration these aspects to. People is getting really tired accommodating there whole gear over and over to be on top.

[Zeus]

This... oh no man... first re-evaluated the new arcane weapons of the warrior and then come back to this. Also, this shouldn't be happening. Nerfing not only 1 but 2 classes to bring balance and please 1 class is not the right way. You are also including health skills. I see that with this changes, mages are gonna be the ones that will suffer more. And for tanks your are gonna make them re-evaluate there whole build (skill points and jewels!!!) once again to accommodate the new jugg vicious formula. Rogues will just have to wait the new nerfs and puff kill everyone. You have to take into consideration these aspects to. People is getting really tired accommodating there whole gear over and over to be on top.

I do agree nerfing should never be the answer, but where was this sort of mercy when rogue's armor got nerfed?