PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

**VROOMIGoRealFast** · 07-21-2016, 04:59 PM

Greetings Arlorians!

We've appreciated all feedback players have been posted after the corrections to Aimed Shot as well as the current state of Rogues in PvP. Due to the nature of the thread, we have taken another look at overall PvP balance based on the issues that players have brought up, and have found something we want to address.

Currently in PvP, healing and damage are scaled based on your level. At level 56 you deal 50% damage and heal for 50%. We believe this has overall resulted in better PvP battles. Thanks to all the posts from the community we've identified aspects of survivability which do not have any kind of reduction. These are Arcane Shield's Damage Reduction, the health increase from Juggernaut, and the length of invulnerability from Horn of Renew.

Here is our thought on why Damage Reduction not scaling becomes a problem. If I'm a Rogue (or any character) and use an attack which deals 1000 damage to a Sorcerer with Arcane Shield, that damage is reduced because Arcane Shield gives Damage Reduction. Let's say my Arcane Shield gives me 55% Damage Reduction. This means that 1000 damage becomes 450 damage. Now if you include the 50% damage decrease in place in PvP, this 1000 damage drops all the way to 225 damage. Having the damage decrease in PvP compounds the effectiveness of my Arcane Shield, in a way that players dealing damage can't keep up with.

The health increase of Juggernaut works similarly. Juggernaut increases your health by 25% of your armor, and with the Ignore Pain upgrade gives you 40% (or 65%) damage reduction while active. Let's say I receive 1000 health from Juggernaut (meaning I have 4000 armor). Normally this would mean I can take 1 more hit from that Rogue dealing 1000 damage. Taking 40% Damage Reduction into account, the Rogue's 1000 damage would be reduced to 600 damage, so I would be able to take 2 hits before losing my Juggernaut health. Now add in the PvP damage decrease, and the Rogue only deals 300 damage. Now a single use of Juggernaut means I can take 4 more hits from the Rogue.

Both of the given cases are further lowered by the natural armor the Sorcerer or Warrior has, further decreasing the amount of damage they receive. We want to address these abilities so that the scaling of survivability matches with the scaling of damage and healing.

Proposed Changes:
1) The damage reduction of Arcane Shield will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 the reduction will remain 45% for uncharged and 55% for charged. At level 56 the damage reduction will be half that value, 22.5% for uncharged and 27.5% for charged. The health of the shield will not be adjusted as part of this change.
2) The amount of bonus health that Juggernaut grants will scale with player level (in PvP only) at the same rate damage is scaled. At level 1 Juggernaut will grant 17.5% health uncharged and 25% health charged. At level 56 Juggernaut will grant 8.75% health uncharged and 12.5% health charged. The Damage Reduction gained from Juggernaut will not be adjusted as part of this change.
3) The duration of the invulnerability upgrade on Horn of Renew will be reduced (in PvP only) from 2/3 seconds to 1/1.5 seconds.
4) Reduce the amount of Nekro's Arcane Ability Damage Reduction in PvP
5) Allow Juggernaut's upgrade to work even inside of a Korruption Pool (there's debate whether this is considered healing 'over time')

While this is our current plan, because of the nature of PvP, we are looking for feedback from the players on this. If the discussion goes well this will be released next Thursday's patch!

See you on Blood Beach,
-STSVroom

**Zeus** · 07-21-2016, 05:09 PM

Yay!

Seems like rogue will have a place again.

**Anyona** · 07-21-2016, 05:13 PM

I'm actually done, nerfing the other classes is not what should happen. Especially when in two combos my arcane shield is broken by a rogue. I guess I can expect to be comboed now after the 2sec immunity.

How about you increase rogues survivability and the utility they offer in a team environment rather than nerfing the other classes?

Also, the numbers you're using are completely wrong. Change the number to 10,000 damage and that's how much rogues will deal without any global nerfs and damage reduction.

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**Zeus** · 07-21-2016, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Anyona

I'm actually done, nerfing the other classes is not what should happen. Especially when in two combos my arcane shield is broken by a rogue. I guess I can expect to be comboed now after the 2sec immunity.

How about you increase rogues survivability and the utility they offer in a team environment rather than nerfing the other classes?

Also, the numbers you're using is completely wrong. Change the number to 10,000 damage and that's how much rogues will deal without any global nerfs and shield reduction.

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I do agree that classes shouldn't be nerfed. I hated when rogue armor got nerfed and was on the verge of quitting. If there's a solution that doesn't involve nerfing warrior and sorcerer, that would be more ideal.

**Anyona** · 07-21-2016, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Zeus

I do agree that classes shouldn't be nerfed. I hated when rogue armor got nerfed and was on the verge of quitting. If there's a solution that doesn't involve nerfing warrior and sorcerer, that would be more ideal.

I would prefer them to change their armor back.

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**Crackerzseven** · 07-21-2016, 05:25 PM

More needs! Geez..we warrs get slaughtered by mages as it is..and new arc bow for rogues picks us off no problem...ahh u want mages n rogues to have more kills at the warrs expense, u already gave us the worse weapons out of all the three classes now this..Woop thx sts..check how many warrs are killed by mages vs the other way round..

**Crackerzseven** · 07-21-2016, 05:27 PM

Nerf not needs..lol

**Matheo Hkmat** · 07-21-2016, 05:30 PM

meh dont nerf shield rogues will kill us with 1 hit

**resurrected** · 07-21-2016, 05:34 PM

I dont think war shield and mage should be nerfed...

**Luciano Lobo** · 07-21-2016, 05:38 PM

This... oh no man... first re-evaluated the new arcane weapons of the warrior and then come back to this. Also, this shouldn't be happening. Nerfing not only 1 but 2 classes to bring balance and please 1 class is not the right way. You are also including health skills. I see that with this changes, mages are gonna be the ones that will suffer more. And for tanks your are gonna make them re-evaluate there whole build (skill points and jewels!!!) once again to accommodate the new jugg vicious formula. Rogues will just have to wait the new nerfs and puff kill everyone. You have to take into consideration these aspects to. People is getting really tired accommodating there whole gear over and over to be on top.

**Cross** · 07-21-2016, 05:42 PM

After 3 and a half years skills are getting "fixed". Can this be stopped? It startes to get annoying.

Warrior's heal shouldn't be nerfed. Those few seconds are essential for the survivability of warrior's and their team in PvP.

**will0** · 07-21-2016, 05:45 PM

Arcane shield only thing keeping mage alive and now you want to nerf it ? Remove nekro AA in PVP then ... everyone is using it to shield themself.

review 46 arcane sword process which is the main issue!

All these nerfing making me feel more and more bored of this game ..

**Zeus** · 07-21-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Luciano Lobo

This... oh no man... first re-evaluated the new arcane weapons of the warrior and then come back to this. Also, this shouldn't be happening. Nerfing not only 1 but 2 classes to bring balance and please 1 class is not the right way. You are also including health skills. I see that with this changes, mages are gonna be the ones that will suffer more. And for tanks your are gonna make them re-evaluate there whole build (skill points and jewels!!!) once again to accommodate the new jugg vicious formula. Rogues will just have to wait the new nerfs and puff kill everyone. You have to take into consideration these aspects to. People is getting really tired accommodating there whole gear over and over to be on top.

I do agree nerfing should never be the answer, but where was this sort of mercy when rogue's armor got nerfed?

**resurrected** · 07-21-2016, 05:58 PM

Does these " fixing " will affect pve?
Talking about mage shield and jugg self heal

**Kakashis** · 07-21-2016, 05:58 PM

I don't pvp much on my rogue, but I'm all for trying this out. It was literally impossible to 1v1 other classes as a rogue.

**VROOMIGoRealFast** · 07-21-2016, 06:08 PM

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.

Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)

These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

**yubaraj** · 07-21-2016, 06:10 PM

Its gonna be rogue legends again lol.

Btw nobody wants to get nerfed.

Only thing good about mage is our shield if you guys Nerf it by half then we may get one shorted by rogues with the shield on.

If you really want to Nerf arcane shield . Nerf nekro shield too. <b>Pet should not be giving more damage reduction than skill does.</b>

I was suggesting to give rogue 2 sec invulnerability in razor shield only 46+ rogue . Only in TDM and CTF. Not in PvP and duel.

**VROOMIGoRealFast** · 07-21-2016, 06:11 PM

To those mentioning Nekro, we would be evaluating a reduction in the shield of Nekro's AA accordingly as part of this. I'll update my posts with that notion.

**Valkiryas** · 07-21-2016, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zeus

I do agree nerfing should never be the answer, but where was this sort of mercy when rogue's armor got nerfed?

Exatly all the current nerfs were for rogues, armor, damage, aimed and everyone else class get they survivality buff.

Now a rogue can beat a tank if it isn't enough skilled.

**Anyona** · 07-21-2016, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by VROOMIGoRealFast

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.

Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)

These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

If you want to nerf mages shields, I want my damage buffed and some sort of skill that reduces armor. You're right about the rock paper scissors thing but its the point where rogues with less gear than me are killing me which I don't feel like that should be the case.

I believe all the duel scenario's you mentioned are one sided. And as for skills I use in a duel they're:

(Vs Rogues and Tanks)
Shield
Heal
Light
Ice
(Using nekro)

(Vs Rogues)
Or:
Shield
Light
Fireball
Ice
(Using Shady and Surge)

I feel that Rogue V Mage is very luck dependant on the mages part as you're very dependant on auto attacks landing and critical hits. Where as Tank V Mage it is much easier due to you being able to alternate shields and heal when needed.

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