Requesting the return of PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

[Breakingbadxx]

Then I think your jugg should also be reverted back to what it was

The juggernaut 'second wind' was never intended to be broken by anything when active.

What are you getting at?

[Breakingbadxx]

If rogues had learned to get around their armor nerfs these threads wouldn't be happening weekly also as you stated half of those are fixes not nerfs

Yes, just like the fix the developers highlighted to reduce arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

[Breakingbadxx]

The reason 7/21 proposed change were shelved is very simple: the idea of nerfing creates a massive backlash and significant player anger. Nerfing should be a last resort, not the first option. These particular proposed changes I strongly disagree with because they the benefit reduction is so severe. It also makes little sense because, after a few expansions, the damage reduction of shield/jugg would scale to almost nothing. It's very counter intuitive.

I disagree, there is too much of a genuine explanation put forward by Vroom for shelving to be appropriate.

[Breakingbadxx]

This is trolling, you're trying to pick a fight.

In what way? Enlighten me.

[Plqgue]

In what way? Enlighten me.

You posted one actual nerf and six fixes to compare to actually nerfing an entire class

[Breakingbadxx]

You posted one actual nerf and six fixes to compare to actually nerfing an entire class

If you deem them fixes, I won't disagree with you.

They will be the same fixes as reducing the current arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

[Plqgue]

If you deem them fixes, I won't disagree with you.

They will be the same fixes as reducing the current arcane shields damage reduction by 50%.

How is that a fix ? Did any of your skills or rogues get Nerfed by 50% because of a global damage nerf?

[Breakingbadxx]

How is that a fix ? Did any of your skills or rogues get Nerfed by 50% because of a global damage nerf?

All classes received the 50% damage and healing nerf.

Its only logical to reduce damage reduction by 50% when reducing damage by 50% or problems arise. Namely with classes without significant damage reduction. You have been active in all balance related threads, you should be able to put the pieces together now.

[Anyona]

It was just a simplified example.

It still shows a ridiculous amount of damage reduction though.

1000 damage (reduced to) 225 damage. Wew.

This is actually when NOT TAKING PLAYER ARMOR INTO ACCOUNT. The damage is reduced even further when armor is accounted for.

No wonder we stack mages.

Clearly needs fixing.

What exactly needs fixing? If you use aimed shot damage without any damage reduction taken into account you're looking at 10,000 damage on a crit. Then with all damage reduction taken into consideration, you're looking at approximately 2,250 damage. When the shield only absorbs around 4,000-5,000 damage, no wonder why it's breaking so easily.

Rather than nerfing the other classes, you should be writing a thread on how devs can improve the faults of rogues because clearly they're the problem, not mages.

[Oaheuzihar]

Damage reduction should be reduced alongside damage. Its only logical.

It seems like i can't understand this.

If you take away a % of damage it has equal impact regardless of the actual damage being dealt then reduced, right?

Can you help me out here? I think im missing something here.

[Safiras]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

[Oaheuzihar]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

Thanks for that first paragraph. I couldn't seem to word it correctly. I don't see the problem with the arcane shield damage reduction because it is a percent and not a flat value. IMO, rogues need a small damage buff because as long as rogues don't break my shield i will utterly trash them with stuns.

[konafez]

Wow...I can see I was proven right...

Sts opens for business at 8:00 am CST ..I expect this thread to be locked shortly after that...

Well played ..*slow claps* ...

[Safiras]

By the way, just making it clear (because I think I didn't in my previous post) that I am not in favor of the nerf to the mage shield damage reduction or to the Juggernaut skill (I was using it as an example of how the principle of nerfing skills as suggested by the OP should be applied across the board, and thus not just to mage shield).

The shield gives mages their relevance in PvP. Without that capability to absorb damage for a limited period of time they're just walking blue pinatas. What I want is for rogues to compete with both tanks and mages in a clash situation for equal importance and relevance, which is what is not the case currently because we die slightly too easily and do not pose currently enough of a threat to a team of jugged tanks and shielded mages. I am in favor of the devs' gradual and careful approach to buffing rogues till a more competitive situation is reached. A nerf to mage shield damage reduction of that magnitude would be too drastic and alter PvP balance to an unreasonable degree.

[Standingstill]

I have to put in my 2 cents because as someone who plays all classes sometimes i dont think dps class understand. That there is supposed to be a difference in the attributes each class have. Warriors are supposed to be hard to kill. Dps classes should die alot because they kill alot took me under 2 months to get 10k kills on rogue. Been at it 8-9 months now on tank and only have 4.5k. For those of u that are calling for jugg nerf lets remember that the cool down time of jugg is twice that of the shield. All u have to do is hit a tank when their skills are down and they die. stay away from proc run if u have to then nuke when skills are down. I kill lots of wars on my rogue because i know how to read their skills. Also with the heal debuff rogues can overpower the regen on heal. That mixed with warriors worst nightmare in pvp korruption basically nulls their main attributes. Without heal regen on jugg warriors die fast. 3 mages 3 korrs one set tank is pretty much impossible to beat unless like someone else said, u have the same set up. Rogues still have a place with kor present because they can pick off tanks like they are paper. Korruption sucks for rogues too cuz it will make u manaless pretty fast. the class that is least affected by kor is mage so maybe if they complain too much about shield debuff lets make a pet next event that nulls shield and aimed crit buff while ur in pool. Would be equivalent to what korruption does to wars. Or here is another one increase cd time of shield. Lol j/k i know that would be excessive but i hope u get my point to stop talking about war debuff that isnt the issue here haha.

[Safiras]

I have to put in my 2 cents because as someone who plays all classes sometimes i dont think dps class understand. That there is supposed to be a difference in the attributes each class have. Warriors are supposed to be hard to kill. Dps classes should die alot because they kill alot took me under 2 months to get 10k kills on rogue. Been at it 8-9 months now on tank and only have 4.5k. For those of u that are calling for jugg nerf lets remember that the cool down time of jugg is twice that of the shield. All u have to do is hit a tank when their skills are down and they die. stay away from proc run if u have to then nuke when skills are down. I kill lots of wars on my rogue because i know how to read their skills. Also with the heal debuff rogues can overpower the regen on heal. That mixed with warriors worst nightmare in pvp korruption basically nulls their main attributes. Without heal regen on jugg warriors die fast. 3 mages 3 korrs one set tank is pretty much impossible to beat unless like someone else said, u have the same set up. Rogues still have a place with kor present because they can pick off tanks like they are paper. Korruption sucks for rogues too cuz it will make u manaless pretty fast. the class that is least affected by kor is mage so maybe if they complain too much about shield debuff lets make a pet next event that nulls shield and aimed crit buff while ur in pool. Would be equivalent to what korruption does to wars. Or here is another one increase cd time of shield. Lol j/k i know that would be excessive but i hope u get my point to stop talking about war debuff that isnt the issue here haha.

The Korruption debuff on warrior Juggernaut heal has been fixed.

[intrepd]

Our opinions only create drama because they go against what YOU want...if you can't handle constructive criticism you shouldn't be on a forum

Before the global nerf wasn't the damage like , example a rogue hit a mage with shield 1k but its reduced to lets say 450 since its 55% Reduce? Now its reduced by another 50 after the global nerf so its 225 which means that its a buff for mages no? Please correct me if im wrong

[Breakingbadxx]

What exactly needs fixing? If you use aimed shot damage without any damage reduction taken into account you're looking at 10,000 damage on a crit. Then with all damage reduction taken into consideration, you're looking at approximately 2,250 damage. When the shield only absorbs around 4,000-5,000 damage, no wonder why it's breaking so easily.

Rather than nerfing the other classes, you should be writing a thread on how devs can improve the faults of rogues because clearly they're the problem, not mages.

The developers have stated the rogue class will remain glass. I see no reason to invest my time there.

[Breakingbadxx]

It seems like i can't understand this.

If you take away a % of damage it has equal impact regardless of the actual damage being dealt then reduced, right?

Can you help me out here? I think im missing something here.

Read the post I borrowed from Vroom.

[Breakingbadxx]

I'm not completely certain, but I doubt it's the percentage of the damage reduction that maybe should be addressed, but the total amount of damage that can be absorbed by the shield before it breaks (I'm just addressing Breakingbad's point here, not saying I agree with it). The damage reduction is not an issue to me, because it's a percentage value. The shield will absorb less damage per hit simply because we hit for less damage than before due to the global damage nerf. Does that sound logical?

Anyway, going by the original logic of the proposed nerf, if you propose that the damage reduction of mage shield be reduced by half at endgame the same way damage got reduced by half, why not then apply the same principle to the damage reduction of Juggernaut?

My interpretation of the global damage nerf, from playing through the testing period when all classes had their full damage in PvP, is that at full power all classes ESPECIALLY rogues deal too much damage for our damage reduction and absorption capabilities to handle. After the damage nerf PvP became slower and more tactical but rogues suffere more because our primary capability became handicapped and we did not have a good defensive skill to lean on like the other two classes. As a result mages handled the damage nerf better than rogues.

Back to the issue of nerfing mage shield. It is not a fair suggestion to push through a nerf of mage shield armor reduction because then tanks should get an equal nerf on their primary defensive skill (juggernaut). If you want the mage shield to breal faster, make juggernaut easier to break too. The same logic must apply across the board, like what you said

Ok, let's put the class purpose cards on the table.

Mages were never intended to be semi-tanks with a lot more damage just as we warriors were never meant to be "semi-rogues with a lot more HP".

Making juggernaut easier to break once again defeats the purpose of a tank.

Mages aren't tanks. This needs to be made clear.