Shields Up! Observations of Shields & Holographic Displays

[bronislav84]

Ok? I'm not, and you know I'm not. I'm asking IB to make a shield suggestion for those who aren't a heal tank (Int or Str) and how much damage reduction is lost between the two, cause it isn't in here and is relevant.

And yea, now that I think about it, I've never died with you except after you left or if I took a wrong turn.

[octavos]

Ok? I'm not, and you know I'm not. I'm asking IB to make a shield suggestion for those who aren't a heal tank (Int or Str) and how much damage reduction is lost between the two, cause it isn't in here and is relevant.

And yea, now that I think about it, I've never died with you except after you left or if I took a wrong turn.

lol, im straight engineer, no str or dex added, but I do fight with the highest armor possible.
even if that means black widow and a shield....and maxing my (shield skill,Empathy) and major attacks (sonic boom, Transference,)

I wanna kill fast so heal works properly.

and yes most are not heal tanks. lol

[MikeMinotaur]

My take on shields and weapon choice based on my experience using them myself and partying with others and observing the outcome is as follows:

Commando: Cannons are where it's at. Every good one that grabs and holds aggro effectively uses cannons exclusively. The have less DPS than rifles but cannons give off a small AoE around the target on auto attacks. This translates to far better aggro management over single target rifles and pistols. I can run with a Cannon wielding Commando with my Engi and pretty much use Transference to heal and Empathy for big pulls and bosses. It also means the Operators don't need as much tending as the aggro is being properly handled. I only use rifles on boss fights as there's usually only one target so the better DPS is more than welcome here.

Operator: Dual pistols seem to have the best DPS ratings in the game. Rifles will do more damage per shot, but this class is about DPS. I say, skip the rifle unless you can find a better one in terms of DPS and Dexterity. Shields are a complete waste here as your DPS will suffer due to the pistols you'll inevitably be relegated to using. Thus you will not be as effective at doing damage. If you're playing with a Commando that's equipped as mentioned above You'll never miss it anyway.

Engineer: Personally, with a good group lead by a Commando properly equipped (see above, again) I will use rifles due to their high damage per shot which translates to higher damage and heal output which means less times using these skills and better mana efficiency. This is a great Heal/Support weapon.

Now if you're running with a less than ideal group ( improperly equipped and spec'd Commando or none at all, Ops running amok the group splintering off...) pistol and shield helps as you may be running more of a drain tank role. I'll run in, use Pain, Transference, Leech possibly Empathy if necessary and repeat to control aggro. The armor's not a lot, but it seems to help an the damage/heal output doesn't seem to suffer to the point of utter frustration. Plus there is are small health and mana bonuses. Rifles will be a little faster here if you don't mind kiting any melee mobs. Again, weapon choice in this role depends on the group and how aggressive you want to be.

Bottom line: Shields can give you a little extra protection but do not replace properly spec'd and geared teammates that know and play to their classes strengths and their roles. A team set up as such will clear a dungeon faster than a group with shields about 90% of the time, with little to no deaths guaranteed.

These are just my observations tho, what do you guys think?

[krazii]

Great analysis Mike. I don't' entirely agree with your bottom line as I believe shield and pistol is excellent combination for an engineer as you get an extra int stat buff and extra armor (which is more important then most believe) = better skill potency and live longer, but I appreciate your analysis and it definitely gave me a few things to think about.

[IBNobody]

Heal tanking? What about support Engineers who heal and Protection the party, and must survive to Res the party? This seems to be surprisingly absent in the guide.

Not at all. If you have a competent commando as a tank (and you know how not to pull too much aggro by overhealing), you don't really need a shield. If you do not have a competent tank, then having a shield and pistol combo may give you some extra survivability.

A change in 1 damage point roughly equates to 1 extra HP healed per tick of Empathy. You're currently looking at healing 3 HP less per tick (since 9 INT will likely kick up your damage).

When a dodge-granting shield comes out, it will be the hands-down winner.

And suggesting rifles for Operatives? Um what is so bad about dual pistols? Please discuss the comparison better.

You may hit more and (and thus crit) more often, but doing less damage works against you due to armor. I recommend rifles because most of my Op's damage kick comes from my skills. I also like Rifles because they have slightly longer range. It makes things easier to kite.

Also would be nice to know how much damage reduction each Holo Shield gives, and what the difference in damage reduction is between the two (Str for 30 and Int for 28). I have a Str shield and wondering how much damage reduction I'd love if I trade it for the Int shield.

A pittance of stat increases won't noticeably decrease your damage taken, unless you get enough of a stat bonus to cross the threshold of an extra % to dodge. This is why I typically look at Platinum weapons and armor before I look at drops.

[Ephemeris]

Laying aside sheer luck on my Op's side, is a shield really necessary for my Commando as it gets "older"?

In my experience, no -- a shield is not necessary for an "older" commando (provided that the commando can and will stim as necessary). I have yet to die a single time in the Slouch-O campaign -- often as the focal point for aggro -- during my commando's grind to 30 (which I'm about 400 xp short of at the moment); I've never used a shield. With an engineer in the party (and decent gear -- using Desert Rat with the plat rifle; upgrading gear gradually with each ding), it's generally not too difficult to stay alive (IMO). Everyone has their own play style, granted, but I don't think that shields are a necessity for commandos at this point.

[bronislav84]

Not at all. If you have a competent commando as a tank (and you know how not to pull too much aggro by overhealing), you don't really need a shield. If you do not have a competent tank, then having a shield and pistol combo may give you some extra survivability.

A change in 1 damage point roughly equates to 1 extra HP healed per tick of Empathy. You're currently looking at healing 3 HP less per tick (since 9 INT will likely kick up your damage).

When a dodge-granting shield comes out, it will be the hands-down winner.

Soooooooo, you generally recommend a shield, then? I dislike dieing and like to be around to res people.

And unless you can get 50% permanent dodge, I currently don't see dodge as viable in either game. I prefer straight up damage reduction by armor, because it's always there. On the other hand, if you don't dodge, you take full damage.

You may hit more and (and thus crit) more often, but doing less damage works against you due to armor. I recommend rifles because most of my Op's damage kick comes from my skills. I also like Rifles because they have slightly longer range. It makes things easier to kite.

While this is sound advice, considering rifles are a generic weapon and lack Dex, I think I will stick to the tried and true dual pistols, sorry.

A pittance of stat increases won't noticeably decrease your damage taken, unless you get enough of a stat bonus to cross the threshold of an extra % to dodge. This is why I typically look at Platinum weapons and armor before I look at drops.

As per my comment about dodge above, I prefer straight up image reduction. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering if you could tell us if the 10 armor difference between the level 28 Int shield and the level 30 Str shield actually causes you to take less damage with the level 30 shield, and how much less. Like, specifically? Numbers are nice. Cause if the extra 10 armor doesn't actually decrease damage taken, I'd much rather prefer the Int shield. Was looking for clarification.

[McBain]

The thing with higher dodge is that, over time, you'll absorb less overall damage than with lower dodge and higher armor, mainly because dodge is a complete miss. Zero damage. If you have no dodge but high armor, yes the armor will absorb more damage, but the hits will always be landing. I'm not great at math type stuff, but there was a thread at one point (pretty sure in the PL forum) that proved mathematically that dodge is generally more effective than armor at overall damage reduction. I can't seem to locate it at the moment. Maybe it was a post within a different but related thread. There's a balance to it, to be sure, though. You obviously can't be running around with zero armor and expect good results.

[IBNobody]

Soooooooo, you generally recommend a shield, then? I dislike dieing and like to be around to res people.

And unless you can get 50% permanent dodge, I currently don't see dodge as viable in either game. I prefer straight up damage reduction by armor, because it's always there. On the other hand, if you don't dodge, you take full damage.While this is sound advice, considering rifles are a generic weapon and lack Dex, I think I will stick to the tried and true dual pistols, sorry.As per my comment about dodge above, I prefer straight up image reduction. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering if you could tell us if the 10 armor difference between the level 28 Int shield and the level 30 Str shield actually causes you to take less damage with the level 30 shield, and how much less. Like, specifically? Numbers are nice. Cause if the extra 10 armor doesn't actually decrease damage taken, I'd much rather prefer the Int shield. Was looking for clarification.

Have you read Kamakaziis' thread? 10 points of armor may negate 1 point of damage from the guardian, off of a strike of 85-175. You won't miss that 1 point of damage. The only reason why you should consider the STR shield as a pure INT char is that the STR might put you over a threshold for an extra damage point or extra crit/hit/dodge.

Dodge is better in this game, by far.
1. Dodge works independently of armor; you usually don't have to choose "more armor" or "more dodge", unless you are comparing different level equipment sets.
2. Dodge provides complete damage negation.
3. Armor doesn't count for much - you need a significant amount to see the same benefit as dodge.

The current Engineer platinum set provides 20% dodge. That means you'll only be hit 80% of the time. If there was ever a suit that was worth the platinum, this would be it.

[bronislav84]

I've read Kami's thread, but it confused me a lot. So ten armor is 1 damage reduction?

Still not convinced on the dodge though. 20% comes up roughly 2 out of 10 hits, so most of the time you are still being hit for the full damage. Like I said, until we can get at least 50% dodge, I personally don't see it as viable.

Rather have constant, albeit small, damage reduction versus not being hit only sometimes.

[StompArtist]

I've read Kami's thread, but it confused me a lot. So ten armor is 1 damage reduction?

Still not convinced on the dodge though. 20% comes up roughly 2 out of 10 hits, so most of the time you are still being hit for the full damage. Like I said, until we can get at least 50% dodge, I personally don't see it as viable.

Rather have constant, albeit small, damage reduction versus not being hit only sometimes.

That is also how I see it but I believe that a lot of players are not agreeing with this. I think that the only way to do it is to do 100 runs with each setup and calculate average damage taken per run.

I am not going to do that and stick with the high armor. lol

[Hullukko]

The only reason why you should consider the STR shield as a pure INT char is that the STR might put you over a threshold for an extra damage point or extra crit/hit/dodge.

It doesn't work like that. All the numbers are floats underneath. If you do 1.9 damage three times, enemy will suffer 5.7 getting the damage to show on screen as 2, will increase by three points, but 0.3.

[Nightarcher]

The only class I think has a legitimate reason to use a shield is a Commando, because after all, we are tanks who grab all the aggro. With almost everything attacking us and taking into account the countless Stims we gulp up, I think Operatives and Engineers can afford to use higher Damage/DPS weapons like Dual Pistols or Rifles. You don't really need the survivability if playing with a good tank in the party.

(Feel free to use a shield if the commando is a noob who can't play his class right)

[bronislav84]

Disagree, Night. I hate dieing, so I'd wear a shield on my Engineer regardless of party for safety reasons. Not all of us can afford to have multiple weapons. Besides, I don't see myself as there for damage dealing. I build for survivability above all else. If the others DO die, I would be the last one standing to Res (And likely die from the entire train hitting me all at once, but I'd have more time to hit Res before I do). If they don't, well I can afford the damage loss.

Besides, the AOE attack on the big guns is nice to get agro on everything in a cone. I dunno why many Coms are starting to scrap their big weapons.

[Reggin]

Hate to be blunt, but there is no valid argument for armor over dodge. Having a 20% dodge rate is a direct 20% reduction in damage taken.

No gear out there will provide enough armor over the dodge based alternative to reduce overall damage taken by 20%.

Anyone who has ever tanked in a more complex mmo can easily validate this.

[IBNobody]

I've read Kami's thread, but it confused me a lot. So ten armor is 1 damage reduction?

Only on the Guardian. On trash mobs, it may take 50 armor. On Vular tankoids, it may take 30. KK showed that it takes less armor to negate 1 point of damage depending on who is hitting you (and possibly how hard).

The thing is, though, that Armor really doesn't protect much at all. A 1 point reduction off an 85-175 hit is miniscule. You need a lot of armor to see a damage difference. A shield does provide armor, and you don't have to give up much to use it. (I.E. It's different from wasting 6 skill points in Protection.)

Still not convinced on the dodge though. 20% comes up roughly 2 out of 10 hits, so most of the time you are still being hit for the full damage. Like I said, until we can get at least 50% dodge, I personally don't see it as viable.

Rather have constant, albeit small, damage reduction versus not being hit only sometimes.

Why do you need to choose? Right now, you can have both armor AND dodge. If you want to be the ultimate survivor (and protect your kill/death ratio), you should seriously consider the platinum lv30 armor for your engineer. Not only does it provide the most armor, it also provides the most dodge. You can have high armor and negate 20% of the damage.

[thequickone]

OK, kiddies! I'm feeling mathy, so let's crunch some numbers! What... You don't think "mathy" is a word? Well, maybe it should be!

Let's make some bold assumptions before we get started:

1. You cannot have both increased Armor and Dodge at the same time, although IBNobody's last post clearly presented you can! For the sake of this presentation, I'm going to make you choose. Who knows, you may have to as the game matures...

2. I will assume the following fictional loadouts ("sets"), for sake of calculation simplicity. The "Armor" set will be 450 Armor and 0% Dodge. The "Dodge" set will be 300 Armor and 20% Dodge. Obviously, the actual in-game values will vary, but I think the data and conclusions I will present will be sound. I told you they would be bold assumptions!

3. Our unfortunate test subject will be beat upon exactly 10 times by a typical mob that will swing for 50 damage with each hit. Based loosely on Kamikazees findings, we'll go right up the middle of the road and assume Armor will reduce damage at a ratio of 1 point of damage mitigated per 25 points of Armor (mid- to strong mob hit, maybe a bit generous...).

And away we go!

Armor set: Ten hits at 50 damage each equals 500 points of incoming damage. Armor reduces 18 points from each hit, but all hits land. Therefore; 10 X (50-18) = 320 damage.

Dodge set: Two of ten hits miss, so right off the bat we only have 400 points of incoming damage. Now, Armor reduces 12 points of damage from each of the remaining 8 hits that do land. Therefore; 8 X (50-12) = 304 damage.

Based on this very simplified comparison, Dodge wins! Yay!! In fact, if you assume an Armor to damage ratio of 1 point of damage mitigated per 50 points of Armor, or assume higher than 50 damage per incoming hit, both of which may be more accurate, Dodge performs even better!

In all seriousness, Dodge seems to do better in SL due to the fact it takes a ton of Armor to make up the difference. And quite simply, taking no damage at all for even one hit will always give Armor a run for its Credits! To borrow from one of SL's item descriptions "If you don't get hit... Well, you don't get hit!".

One thing to keep in mind, which may push Armor back up a bit; Dodge's effect is based on chance versus Armor's effect, which is static. In other words, 20% Dodge does not mean 2 out of 10 hits WILL miss, it means they MAY miss. Every time a hit comes your way, a virtual D10 will roll. If the roll comes up with a 0 or 1, the hit will miss. Otherwise, smackaroo! If anyone reading this has ever played chance-based games, they are aware Lady Luck is often a bi..., ehem... well, you know what she can be! What this means? You cannot always count on Dodge. Conversely, you can depend on Armor for its constant damage-reducing effect. Did I just contradict myself...? Oh, well...

I hope you enjoyed the ride!

[bronislav84]

Why do I need to choose? Well first of all have you SEEN the people on the leader-boards these days? Obviously they don't sleep and spend thousands of plat on armor Enhancers so they're hard to kill or they've found a quick kill exploit somewhere, because the k/d list even for Engineers is in the 50k range IIRC. What does this mean? I with 7 deaths will NEVER make it onto the boards anymore. That doesn't mean I will be any more reckless, but it does mean you'll never see my character name up there.

On top of that, even though I have over 1.6k plat that I haven't used, it's a personal decision that I will NEVER buy plat items except maybe rifles, because they go out of style with each level cap raise and I'd effectively "lose" my plat investment because plat sets have to be thrown out and can't be resold. Same reason I don't use Elixirs or Enhancers. I only buy permanent items. Until the plat gear gives fifty dodge, I don't fancy losing plat each time.

Quite informative Quick, thank you. I like the closing, and still going to go with just armor and no dodge because even your simulated numbers are very close. That and lady luck has never been kind to me. She hates me generally.

[CanonicalKoi]

Big thumbs up to Thequickone, "Now with extra bonus mathyness!" Great post and a very good point about Dodge (and Crit, for that matter) being a matter of chance. I know I tend to forget that that % isn't a given. Having played a lot of D&D, yeah those dice like to mess with everyone at times.

I have bought plat gear, Bron, but I tend to have more than one char of a type. The newer ones get to wear hand-me-downs as they grow up. I haven't bought a lot of it, mind you, but I have reused what I've bought.

I haven't tried using a shield on any of my chars yet. I'm using a Wastelander or Scavenger Rifle on my Commando, love my dual Deatomizers on my Op and I'm a glove-wearer when it comes to my Engie. Since my Comm is the auto-level version with 5 whole skills usable at the moment, I need all the help I can get getting and holding aggro. With my guns and Precision maxed out on the Op, it feels like I'm able to kill things quicker than they can kill me and I just haven't played with a weapon other than gloves or a weapon/shield combo on my Engie.

[IBNobody]

Why do I need to choose? Well first of all have you SEEN the people on the leader-boards these days? Obviously they don't sleep and spend thousands of plat on armor Enhancers so they're hard to kill or they've found a quick kill exploit somewhere, because the k/d list even for Engineers is in the 50k range IIRC. What does this mean? I with 7 deaths will NEVER make it onto the boards anymore. That doesn't mean I will be any more reckless, but it does mean you'll never see my character name up there.

On top of that, even though I have over 1.6k plat that I haven't used, it's a personal decision that I will NEVER buy plat items except maybe rifles, because they go out of style with each level cap raise and I'd effectively "lose" my plat investment because plat sets have to be thrown out and can't be resold. Same reason I don't use Elixirs or Enhancers. I only buy permanent items. Until the plat gear gives fifty dodge, I don't fancy losing plat each time.

Quite informative Quick, thank you. I like the closing, and still going to go with just armor and no dodge because even your simulated numbers are very close. That and lady luck has never been kind to me. She hates me generally.

You didn't answer my question, though. Why do you need to choose right now between dodge or armor?

If it's a choice between platinum and no platinum, I understand. Other than that, though, is there really a decision?

As an off-topic comment... I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand your purchase of 2000 platinum. Why buy 2000 platinum if you don't plan on burning it on armor sets or enhancers? There are only a fixed number of non-consumable platinum purchases. If you're at 1.6k, you've likely burned through them. What are you saving your money for? Will extra maps significantly dig into your reserves? Are there other non-consumables in PL that aren't in SL yet? Or is this just a "peace-of-mind" kind of thing, knowing you've got money in the bank? I'm asking, because I sincerely don't understand your mindset and because I want to be cognizant of my own platinum stores.