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Thread: Balance; Discuss.

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    Default Balance; Discuss.

    First off, apologies for the massive essay that (some of) you are about to read, I have spent a lot of time talking on these forums to arrive at what I currently think, is the most suited solution for imbalance (although I’m sure after you all tear it to shreds I’ll change my mind :-p).

    DISCLAIMER
    All figures are best estimates based on my (meagre) experience and data collected both in-game and on these forums. Please read the following post carefully and post constructive replies.

    With stat based skill progression on the horizon the balance is set to shift (hopefully for the best) and there is great concern over hybrids becoming too weak. With weaker skills, would a hybrid then become too weak to contend without a boost in other areas, for example if skills became stronger for an INT specced enchantress, wouldn’t they 1 hit kill a STR enchantress too easily?

    The current system is very stiff, as level and damage climb the simple boost (1HP/MP per 2STR/INT) would be very difficult to correlate with the increase in damage and skill use; given that not everyone will choose to allocate the same amount of STR/INT, the difference between each build type becomes more noticeable.

    If STR and INT provided a boost (definitely not as strong) to hit%, a STR/INT spec would then be able to land blows, but still suffer a loss of dodge and crit (something which should be saved for a DEX spec aimed at DPS).

    By level 100, 495 attribute points spent into STR/INT would yield 247.5 HP/MP, so a warrior with all points into STR would be around 550 HP, when you consider current damage that will quickly be outweighed.

    Giving health and mana per level is a simple way of giving HP the boost that people have been asking for. However with both so high to begin with it’s easy to soak up as much damage as you need to at low levels, PvE is not a challenge and PvP is drawn out too long. Mana is similar to health; however it enforces the necessity for a fixed cost on all skills, allowing a skill to be maxed as soon as points are available with no concern for mana cost, resulting in the possibility for very high skill impact at lower levels. STR/INT should also have a greater effect on regen to correlate with the increase, ideally at level 100 you would want to regenerate at the same rate (as a percentage). Imagine that the warrior and enchanter are exactly opposite in health and mana as they are with the current system, the base values I used for calculation are:

    Warrior – 154HP – 3H/s +11HP/level (full regen in 50s)
    Archer – 112HP – 1.8H/s +8HP/level (full regen in 60s)
    Ench – 98HP – 1.4H/s +7HP/level (full regen in 70s)

    By level 40 & 100 their base would be:

    Warrior – 583HP – 11.66H/s & 1243HP – 24.86H/s
    Archer – 424HP – 7.06H/s & 904HP – 15.06H/s
    Ench – 371HP – 5.3H/s & 771HP – 11.01H/s

    Then with whatever was placed into STR/INT individual class specialisation would add a greater difference, the following are examples of maxed (+195 = 97.5HP & +495 = 247.5):

    Ursan – 680.5HP & 1490.5HP
    Archer – 521.5HP & 1151.5HP
    Ench – 568.5HP & 1038.5HP

    If each stat then governed skills individually, as opposed to a whole class, each spec could still have the means to enact their play style. There are already skill types that appear for more than one class, both warriors and archers have Evasion and Restore, the enchantress can also boost evade, all classes have skills of a typical archetype, I could go on but the similarities are obvious, there’s only a few things each class cannot do. A STR enchantress would still need some useful spells, Drain Life or Blessing of Vitality for example.

    If you drew out a plan of how the stats and skills tie in, you’ve basically got a very messy skill tree, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was actually what was being cooked up by STS.

    From the examples above, the warrior would have much larger HP, a STR spec would need to yield high damage from attack skills as well as the armour boost from Iron Blood, Crushing Blow would help fight against high dodge and Beckon would assist vs. ranged targets. A DEX spec would boost Evasion and Rage, allowing for a more dodge/DPS style of play. INT would lead to emphasis on the Restore skill as well as probably having some link to Iron Blood for defense.

    The archer stays as it is, balanced nicely in the middle. STR archers would need something like Thorn Root, Break Armour and maybe Blinding Shot, DEX would hold strength in very high burst DPS and INT would take advantage of Restore and perhaps some secondary impact on attack skill damage.

    The enchantress would finally have a substantial amount of MP and M/s needed for prolonged PvP. As mentioned a STR enchantress could use Drain Life and Blessing of Vitality, one of the debuffs, possibly Weakness in order to stand a chance against high evades. A DEX enchantress would need Blessing of Might and probably a debuff like Nightmare to stand any chance, and an INT enchantress would have the better nukes/heal but less focus on the buffs/debuffs.

    This would be much easier to manage in a skill tree system as certain specs have no good skills to take advantage of, INT warriors, INT archers and DEX enchantresses being the worst.

    If any of it doesn’t make sense or needs clarifying, let me know

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    Senior Member Furrawn's Avatar
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    Hi, BMC

    Wow- great post!
    It's the middle of the night & I should be sleeping so be gentle with me if I ask a dumb question. My understanding of the stat based skill change is diffuse at best, but I'm trying I certainly understand the need for it. I worry, though, that my paladin (Furrawn) will become a pallid weakling with no magic. Will the skill set stay with the body type once the conversion happnens? Am I going to log onto PL on July 5th and find my beloved Furrawn now has the skill set of a bear- which I don't want? She does have int- about 70- but obviously strength is the mainstay.

    Will the skills change to reflect what our stats are currently?
    And if they aren't will hybrids become weaklings anyway? I know that the conversion is to level the playing field for the pure mages, etc. But sometimes in PL, like with loot drops, it's an all or nothing thing. I truly fear that my paladin will become useless and not really playable when July 5th hits...

    Balance, as you described, would be great.
    Perhaps in ignorance, I fear that instead of balance, the conversion will be a pendulum swinging to pure builds from hybrids...
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    Guardian of Alterra Royce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmc85uk View Post
    With stat based skill progression on the horizon the balance is set to shift (hopefully for the best) and there is great concern over hybrids becoming too weak. With weaker skills, would a hybrid then become too weak to contend without a boost in other areas, for example if skills became stronger for an INT specced enchantress, wouldn’t they 1 hit kill a STR enchantress too easily?
    Why on earth would you just assume this. A paladin will still have a better attack, and higher armor. They can take the additional damage an Int enchantress will be able to dish out, and they will still have the skills to fight back against the weak armored mage.

    The current system is very stiff, as level and damage climb the simple boost (1HP/MP per 2STR/INT) would be very difficult to correlate with the increase in damage and skill use
    Maybe, but you're not accounting for the fact that damage rises very slowly with level increases as well. Damage only goes up significantly due to better gear, and armor gets the same sort of increase, so I'm not sure this is a problem.

    By level 100, 495 attribute points spent into STR/INT would yield 247.5 HP/MP, so a warrior with all points into STR would be around 550 HP, when you consider current damage that will quickly be outweighed.
    I think it is far too soon to speculate on this. I mean cmon we're not even halfway there yet, and I think everyone realizes there are going to have to be some developments by that point. STS says they have the game planned out to 100, so they must have some things up their sleeves.

    STR/INT should also have a greater effect on regen
    This is absolutely true in general. Currently gear alone pretty well determines regen since the attribute based regen contributes little. Because of this the oasis regen gear imbalance has completely thrown this game off kilter. It would not have happened if regen were based more on attributes.

    If each stat then governed skills individually, as opposed to a whole class, each spec could still have the means to enact their play style. There are already skill types that appear for more than one class, both warriors and archers have Evasion and Restore, the enchantress can also boost evade, all classes have skills of a typical archetype, I could go on but the similarities are obvious, there’s only a few things each class cannot do. A STR enchantress would still need some useful spells, Drain Life or Blessing of Vitality for example.
    I think you're making this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than it needs to be, and you are trying to solve a problem that does not even exist yet, and I'm not sure ever will.

    All the stuff about different attributes powering different skills is really convoluted, and would once again kill enchantresses who would just become healers that would have to boost their Str and Dex to have useful attack skills. I really don't like this at all.

    This would be much easier to manage in a skill tree system as certain specs have no good skills to take advantage of, INT warriors, INT archers and DEX enchantresses being the worst.
    A skill tree would be way better IMO.

    If any of it doesn’t make sense or needs clarifying, let me know
    I think I understand your post, but since it's very long I'll come back again and read later. Maybe I'll agree the second time
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    Senior Member tjornan's Avatar
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    First off, apologies for the massive essay that (some of) you are about to read, I have spent a lot of time talking on these forums to arrive at what I currently think, is the most suited solution for imbalance (although I’m sure after you all tear it to shreds I’ll change my mind :-p).
    Its ok. with all the junk going around we appreciate a good read.

    And for the most part, i totally agree with you. I mean most of our regen comes from our equips, with maybe a measly 1 or 2 regen coming from our stats.

    Good post, it made me think, but i think you did overthink this a bit. But great post
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    Senior Member Furrawn's Avatar
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    I went & read a bit of the chat archive. Just explained more about the conversion. It didn't sound at all like what I was fearing. It sounds pretty great & very fair and reasonable. Now I'm thinking July 5th could be a lot of fun
    Generally speaking, a howling wilderness does not howl: it is the imagination of the traveler that does the howling. ~ Thoreau
    FURRAWN 45 Paladin ButterflyPoet 45 pure dex ScarlettOHara 45 Intbear Jeannedarc 22 Mage Trickortreat lvl 22 100% pure organic chicken Christmastree 13 Mage

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    sorry didn't read, to busy dealing with the crit fromm the wall of text.

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