What Endgame PvP Really Needs

[jackelpl1035]

I hope fox can be op like rhino too lol.

通过我的 SM-N935F 上的 Tapatalk发言

[Waug]

What endgame pvp need at very first is to fix the utmost broken thing that is proc, proc should be nerfed highly, not just talon proc but each and every proc because proc is random, proc is luck based and proc is so high that, proc is the single most valuable thing that decides the outcome of a fight.

- Skill buffs and debuffs should be increased significantly, because they are getting minimal effect because of high amount of stats, eg armor, damage, hit% etc and those things are crucial determining your skill and command on pvp because what's the difference if someone spamming his skill and the other experienced one doing his skills in a right sequence, debuffing at right places. Combos matter less in endgame the very first basis of skilled pvp.

- Once procs have little value after nerfing, there's no point decreasing talon, rather it need dmg boost maybe even in form of dmg proc like +100 yes talon doesn't need defensive prc, it need offensive proc.

- Bear doens't need further buff, it was buffed recently

- Every 2h weapon need buffing if we need to see them in this scenerio but str and int ones need more buffs than dex one of course.

- We don't need and we don't want elites to become class bound, specially because we're in a good situation right now where, every class prefer to use it's own gear cause of the advantages it has, very few exception eg rhino dagger. From my point of view, it's because dagger bringing the extra damage they need, they have defensive stats, degger seems to complete the duality, maybe the solution is to change dagger's offensive procs to defensive proc.

- Fox need slight buff true but it should also be kept in mind that, it has dashes which is a "skill" that's what you get as a skill advantage, so basically if fox get as much defensive and offensive skill as other class with no speed advantage, it's actually getting op. Once dagger getting it's proc changed I think fox gonna get the thing that it need most is defensive stat.

To be very concise.

[yannjoel]

There is one thing confusing me I dont think that bear was underpowered at 76-77

[Congeniality]

There is one thing confusing me I dont think that bear was underpowered at 76-77

I think you read it wrong.

[Congeniality]

What endgame pvp need at very first is to fix the utmost broken thing that is proc, proc should be nerfed highly, not just talon proc but each and every proc because proc is random, proc is luck based and proc is so high that, proc is the single most valuable thing that decides the outcome of a fight.

- Skill buffs and debuffs should be increased significantly, because they are getting minimal effect because of high amount of stats, eg armor, damage, hit% etc and those things are crucial determining your skill and command on pvp because what's the difference if someone spamming his skill and the other experienced one doing his skills in a right sequence, debuffing at right places. Combos matter less in endgame the very first basis of skilled pvp.

- Once procs have little value after nerfing, there's no point decreasing talon, rather it need dmg boost maybe even in form of dmg proc like +100 yes talon doesn't need defensive prc, it need offensive proc.

- Bear doens't need further buff, it was buffed recently

- Every 2h weapon need buffing if we need to see them in this scenerio but str and int ones need more buffs than dex one of course.

- We don't need and we don't want elites to become class bound, specially because we're in a good situation right now where, every class prefer to use it's own gear cause of the advantages it has, very few exception eg rhino dagger. From my point of view, it's because dagger bringing the extra damage they need, they have defensive stats, degger seems to complete the duality, maybe the solution is to change dagger's offensive procs to defensive proc.

- Fox need slight buff true but it should also be kept in mind that, it has dashes which is a "skill" that's what you get as a skill advantage, so basically if fox get as much defensive and offensive skill as other class with no speed advantage, it's actually getting op. Once dagger getting it's proc changed I think fox gonna get the thing that it need most is defensive stat.

To be very concise.

Dash isn't defensive because I can't dash away unless I have an alternate target to lock onto who is over 12m away. I have to dash in. Thus, I find that I am constantly dashing into instantly dieing because I have the least armor, health, and dodge, and unroot of any class.

[Mine AGK]

Dash isn't defensive because I can't dash away unless I have an alternate target to lock onto who is over 12m away. I have to dash in. Thus, I find that I am constantly dashing into instantly dieing because I have the least armor, health, and dodge, and unroot of any class.

Once again. Rhino gained 15 points from 85-100 and still no one addressed that? Before 100 cap rhinos had to sacrifice buffs for damage or damage for buffs. Now they can MAX OUT ALL BUFFS with those extra points.

Birds have 2 buffs
Mages have 2 buffs
Bear technically has 4 buffs (taunt, rage, evade, ironblood)
Fox has 2 or 3? Cant remember.
Rhino has 4 buffs.

Rhinos only became OP AFTER gaining those extra 15 points which helped them max out all buffs and be able to also output damage. There was no having to sacrifice damage/buffs to fit peoples play styles.
Before 100 cap, rhino actually took skill to play, at this point it doesnt. Its too tanky and dodges way too much.

[MageFFA]

Hi all,

For those of you aware, I have been posting as of late about the current state of fox, and unfortunately have gotten little response from the community, thus, I am taking a new approach and going to suggest things that I think each class could use to make the game a healthier place for all ! This discussion will be solely regarding endgame PvP, as I find talking about the lower levels to frankly be boring.

The Big Three:
Attachment 168857

At the time of PL's launch, the only three classes available were the Archer, Enchantress, and the Warrior. To this day, these three classes remain both the most played and the relative strongest in PvP throughout most levels.

Archer:


Currently, the archer, or bird, is indisputably the second strongest class in endgame PvP. However, contrary to previous power surges, the bird's power this cap resides in its tankiness. Rather than having the ability to deal damage beyond comprehension for my puny peanut brain, it now gains 10k hp and 1k armor upon receiving the talon proc bonus. Because of this bonus, the bird is seeing a lot of play, and is generally unhealthy for PvP balance. Suggestions I would have are:

• Lowering Base Armor From Talon Itself (Thus lowering the base armor of talon set)
• Lowering Health Given From Proc
• Removing Armor Bonus From the Proc

Enchantress:


At the present moment, enchantress finds itself in perhaps the most healthy state it has been in since it's release. Historically, the mage has either been relatively overpowered, as seen in 66 and 80 caps (mage was op in those caps imo), or extremely weak as seen in 76, 77 and 85 caps. Now, we see mage at a point in which it is a true supportive class with high damaging abilities. The only few things I would look to tweak mage would be:

• Nerf Mana Regen on the Wand Proc by 10%
• Buff or Create a Visual Update For the Endgame Elite Staff (I don't even know what it's proc is... that's how seldom it is used)

Warrior:


Warrior (bear), yet again, is a class that seems to be in the best spot it has been in a while. The bear had been anywhere from viable to overpowered from 56-77 cap. However, 80, 85 and 100 did not treat the bear as nicely, and finally we see the bear with a relative buff since our last cap. I would say that the bear at the moment does its job, it provides the best crowd control in the game (stuns, hit % buffs, more stuns XD), while also being tanky enough to survive well longer than any other class.... (besides bird). For relative changes to bear, I would:

• Increase Base Armor Stat on Endgame Elite Set
• Increase Base Damage on Super Mega Slash
• Reduce the Cooldown Of the Abillity "Stomp" by 1-2 Seconds at Rank 10

The Not-So Dynamic Duo:
Attachment 168858

Paladin:


Paladin (rhino), being the easily noticeable to be the most overpowered class at level 105 has received much criticism for its unbelievable survivability in conjunction with its relatively high damage, which in turns allows it to assassinate enemies without taking a knick of damage. This class is the epitome of unhealthy gameplay at level 105. Although I may be biased because I play the squishiest character in game (fox), I find it unfun to be taken to 1/4 health by two abilities in a cap where it takes 10 abilities for me to get any other class to that hp.

A lot has been said about the set Rhinos are currently using, the Volta Dagger Set. However, I believe that this attribution of strength has been misguided onto the set, when in reality it lies on the class. If you watch closely, it is clear to see that rhino is even MORE overpowered when using the strength set. Furthermore, we see foxes using the dagger set and being easily the least playable class in the game period. Thus I would say that the rhino class is the issue, not the dagger set. Changes I would make are:

• Lower Paladin Skill Damage
• Lower Paladin Dodge Buff
• Lower Paladin Armor Buff
• Increase Crit Chance on Paladin Crit Buff
• Decrease Paladin Heal Scaling (Scales with INT)
• Decrease Paladin "Charge!" Damage by 60%

Ranger:


Finally, I believe it is beyond apparent that the fox class is the most under-powered at endgame PvP. Why is this? As mentioned in my post the last week, it is because the fox currently does nothing better than another class. It nukes worse than the mage, tanks worse than the bird, crowd controls worse than the bear, and dashes around the map worse than the rhino. So what is fox good for? "NADA!" What does the fox say? NADA, because it's too busy dying to every other class in PvP. I would reiterate what I have said in other posts, but for the sake of length, I will decide against it here. If you want in depth explanations, you can search for it in the general discussion. Changes I would make are:

• Increase Dodge Buff Time While Also Increasing It's Cooldown Proportionally
• Increase Fox Slow Debuff on Needle Abilities
• Decrease Fox Cooldown on Howl
• Increase Fox Bonus Armor Given From Evasion
• Increase Armor On Volta Dagger (If it becomes class specific)
• As a LAST RESORT, Give Fox An Unstun On Howl

I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.

[Absolize]

I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.

This is another one who knows what he’s talking about when it comes to rhinos. Nerfing “Holy Tempest” or the “Juiced!” combo would destroy rhino, a “Brute Force” nerf is acceptable.

[Congeniality]

I can agree on most points but i don't believe rhino is the most OP class this Season/level, i think that title goes to mage here. I'll touch up with rhino and correct some points starting with rhinos infamous charge. Me being a long time rhino player it comes with a perk noting that max charge is mostly useless. I'm not going to say who but there is a rhino in Apex who only use 1 charge. Could be Goah could be hook but it's one of them. Nerfing charge by 60% would NOT change anything on damage just like maxing rabid was never useful in any cases. If you're wanting to know where the damage lies then it's simple, juiced.

The Juiced combo is your equivalent of drain that never works. You're supposed to get HP back but it never seems to do anything but dmg. Nerfing rhino Juiced COULD cripple the class again like many years prior. That's the entire blame of why rhino sucked in the first place. Touching juiced and Holy Tempest would make the class overall garbage like bird in levels lower than 45. I would not recommend doing this what so ever.

Paladins dodge is a joke i refuse to touch on it but I'll be the one to say that i NEVER USE BRUTE. If i could take those 4 skill points and invest it into Vital or Rev i would. Paladins Dodge does need a nerf to stop people from spamming but not to the point where it cannot dodge any attacks. Fully agreed on that one.

Decreasing heal scale is eh. Heres the thing, it's not really about the health given but the the HP Regen that comes with it. Reducing int would just force rhinos to go either pure str or dex. Me being pure Dex already i don't see the problem with this unless you're fighting str tank rhinos.

Rhinos armor buff is the same amount as bears Iron Blood. They tank just the same amount but bears are more durable as a whole. Nerfing rhinos armor would just make them as tanky as a mage which could hurt their credibility as a supporting tank. If you do that then there would be no point in rhinos anymore. Why play rhino that's inferior as a support compared to mage that's not even a supporting class. Armor is the only good thing about rhinos. Their heal is 5 seconds which takes forever and makes a difference in a fight. They have absolutely no damage and this is backed by the Arena of Honor. Their DMG Party buff, THAT ONLY BUFFS DMG, is a weak 46 when players in Endgame is in 4 digit number not 3 anymore. Rhinos health is the biggest kick. Even mages have morr health than us which is why mages could completely dominate a rhino in a fight. It's the sets that are your problem not the class. Though Fox is a whole different subject

Foxes in endgame is no where near the OP announce it is in twink. In twink foxes dodge every attack and every auto from players no matter their weapon. I can spam dagger and 80% of the attacks don't land. And foxes dmg in twink is a dead joke so when i saw that StS buffed their damage by 25% i died inside. Instead of Rabid Ham being the 2shot it's now just rabid.......help us cinco. Foxes need more DODGE, CRITICAL, DAMAGE, and more skill dmg/Buff. Have you tried talon fox walie if that doesn't work then StS will need to revamp the class.

This is another one who knows what he’s talking about when it comes to rhinos. Nerfing “Holy Tempest” or the “Juiced!” combo would destroy rhino, a “Brute Force” nerf is acceptable.

The class does too much damage in my opinion, and it's tankiness is slightly overtuned. I find nerfing the dodge and armor to be a straight forward solution to the ultra-tankiness, and I find the damage nerf to account for the one shotting op rhino this cap. I don't think there is anything beyond that I really need to say. I look forward to hearing what other people think about my rhino propositions.

[MageFFA]

The class does too much damage in my opinion, and it's tankiness is slightly overtuned. I find nerfing the dodge and armor to be a straight forward solution to the ultra-tankiness, and I find the damage nerf to account for the one shotting op rhino this cap. I don't think there is anything beyond that I really need to say. I look forward to hearing what other people think about my rhino propositions.

If i was a dev i wouldn't even give rhinos dodge like that to be honest with you. I've been complaining about nerfing rhinos dodge since 100 cap.