Please reconsider the melee bear for PvE/PvP.

[Ellyidol]

First of all, a big thank you to the devs for releasing Mount Fang. The rate of content upgrades lately have been astoundingly fast - controversial, but always a good thing.

In previous expansions, the bear was always the slight underdog in PvP. No, it wasn't completely useless or powerless, but it wasn't at par with the birds and mages either. However, bears have always had one of the best roles in PvE. They made everything in PvE easier - clearing mobs, tanking bosses, and preventing deaths.

Unfortunately, in Fang, things seem to have changed. The PvP aspect of bears are still lacking, especially if you compare them to other melee classes, but worst of all, it seems the PvE strengths have also been removed rendering the class almost useless.

I know, it's early, it's only been a few hours into the expansion, but it doesn't take hours of killing the same bosses/mobs to realize and observe what the changes have been. Others are pretty straightforward, you tank and spank the boss. Other bosses have more mechanics, which may have not been fully countered yet, but are pretty clear.

Also, there are those interested in PvE or PvP only. That said, I'll divide this into those two sections so you don't have to read the area you don't want to.

Finally, please note that I could be mistaken - in fact, I hope I am. A new update always brings the entire community together, I was extremely happy to be playing with my guild again and seeing all my friends that I haven't seen in a long time online on my friends list. This is why I wanted to make this post. If the same update that brings these people back together is the same update that also pushes them away, there is definitely something wrong.

PvE

There is small discussion on the bear's PvE shortcomings here:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42521-Tip-For-Defeating-Aunt-Emma

I have three main points,

1. Mob clearing (CC-ing via Beckon, Stomp).
2. Boss encounters + aggro (main bosses, not named/mini-bosses).

Mobs

Generally, the mob clearing method for a bear has always been the same. Gather up, Beckon Stomp, etc etc, you know the drill. This, IMO, has always been the best PvE strength of a bear. It can determine the speed of the run and the amount of deaths - especially in Nuri's.

When I started the Fang maps, I had the expectations of Nuri-par trash mobs ready. Eg. gravestone, pesky slows, and just good damage - a challenge for a tank. However, it seems that the trash mobs in Fang are literally that, trash. They don't do anything special and they barely hit for anything which removed the challenge and essence of having a tank in the group.

Worse, it seems that the mob's dodges have been scaled up. Bears already have the ancient problem of Hit % issues, having to be dual spec, etc etc etc, old argument. I was running with a 105 Hit % bear, which IMO, is quite high already especially for PvE. I am not saying that only 50% of the mobs are actually getting hit, I would put the number at only 90% of mobs seem to be fully controllable. To put it into context, the first three mobs in the first map, when I beckoned, only 1 of them was actually pulled closer. The other two dodged it. How much hit % do we actually need?

Add up mobs that do not bring a challenge and a use for a tank + making bears less effective in CC-ing (gather, control) and you get a relatively useless class in PvE.

Boss encounters

This goes hand-in-hand with aggro. As far as I know, which means I could be mistaken, the boss mechanics, from my experience, are:

Map 1 - Tank and spank
Map 2 - Tank and spank
Map 3 - Something with movement, shadow waves, distance.
Map 4 - Tank and spank
Map 5 - Something with the boss Beckon+Stomping of some sort.

Tank and spank means you literally just tank it, and spank it, until it dies.

However, there doesn't seem to be really any tanking left. The tanking seems to have gone to birds and mages to kite the boss. As a tanking melee class, that's a big blow against us. Taunt doesn't seem to be working as effectively as it did in previous campaigns, therefore leaving aggro out in the open for the highest DPS to take. Furthermore, if these birds/mages are the ones kite-tanking them, what exactly is the use of a bear in a boss? We have sub-par damage in comparison to birds and mages, our debuffs shine in reducing damage taken (if any are taken, they are kiting after all), and our Beckon doesn't affect the boss. The only true input I see is the dodge debuff for the boss - so that the birds/mages can hit more.

At first, I thought that making the bosses immune to Beckon was a good thing. Less scattering, less pushing out of range therefore resetting the boss, and it made two bears less detrimental to each other. But that was when we could grab aggro, so we didn't need to fling the boss around. Now that we can't grab aggro, again, what is the purpose of a bear in a boss fight?

Map 5 boss is a prime example. There's nothing to tank other than his deadly pull+damage combo - which seems to be avoidable only if you have existing distance between you and the boss. If you're at melee range and get pulled, there's simply not enough time to run and avoid his damage after the pull. Damage strong enough to nearly one-shot almost anyone. Solution? Kite-tank. What good is a bear for kite-tanking, when it's skills are melee oriented?

PvP

Since the campaign was just released, there has been no true PvP-ing yet for 65/66. The best glimpse into the 65 PvP world is through the crafted stats - something which I immediately go to once a new campaign is out.

In a nutshell, the bear will be the weakest melee class. I can definitely be mistaken, but that's my prediction.

If I remember correctly, crafted stats for a strength piece were: (please correct me, have no access to the game at the moment).

7 Dodge, 3 Crit, 7 HS, 5 MS, 11 Damage.

The stats are awesome. But as a melee bear, it's a point against us. Dodge is good, crit is good, HS is good, damage is good, but 5 MS?

It's been brought up before. If strength is the main and defining attribute of a bear, therefore making it the prime strength class, what good does 5 MS per piece do for a bear? 5 MS from the entire set with the bonus is already sufficient. If this 20+ MS is reduced to 5 MS and the remainder changed to another more useful stat, strength bears may be more potent as a melee class.

Therefore, the crafted stats are more suited to pally/warbird game play more than anything else. End story, you cannot balance bears through gear. If you buff strength gear, pallys and warbirds will benefit more. If you nerf strength gear, yes there may be less pallys/warbirds running around, but how bad will a strength bear be by then?

Does anyone remember the original Fury change to the pally/warbird fury?

PS. Nothing against paladins/warbirds here, just using you guys as a strength reference to bears.

Suggestions
The issue of skill levels is looming in again. For those that don't know, the original skill level cap per skill was only up to Level 5. I think level 6 was introduced when Balefort Sewers came out?

Anyway, with more and more skill points being introduced to the same number of skills, almost everyone will have the same skill builds and skill levels again. Furthermore, with the rate of which the new campaigns are coming, therefore more level caps and more skill points, the skills will be becoming more of an issue.

That said, I believe that to truly rebalance PvE and PvP, a review and restructure of the skill system would be effective. I think that the opportunity to rework the classes into their true roles is highest through the skills. Balancing through gear seems very broad. eg, to try and balance a bear through gear affects pallys/warbirds too, as mentioned. So a skill rebalancing would allow individual class balances.

I don't know with the rest, but a new and exciting skill tree/system would be a big bonus to attracting veteran players.

In conclusion, I'm not asking or suggesting to make the bear OP. If it does become OP, I'll be re-rolling to a bird. But at least add utility to the class. Right now, there's really nothing a bear can do that a mage/bird cannot do better. A single skill (Beckon) shouldn't be the only skill that makes that class amount to anything.

---

Unfortunately, the release of Fang is dead center on my semester finals. One more test to go, but I haven't started on it yet. I was and will be able to squeeze in playing time though, after all, what are those hourly breaks for

Thank you.

[KingFu]

Agree with everything. Especially the gear part, str gear IMO is no longer built for bears, it's built for any class who wants armor and dodge. Awesome points as always bro, one of the first long threads I've read 90% of

[Hankomachos]

I noticed in the first level of mt.fang that whilst soloing (not juiced up on elixirs) I did like 60 damage on one enemy. I think soloing as a bear is out of the question, IMO. I mean I know warriors mainly excel in taking damage as opposed to dishing damage (higher levels mainly) but unless you're with a mage or a bird than you're stuck fighting the same mob for like 2 mins. :/

[KingFu]

I noticed in the first level of mt.fang that whilst soloing (not juiced up on elixirs) I did like 60 damage on one enemy. I think soloing as a bear is out of the question, IMO. I mean I know warriors mainly excel in taking damage as opposed to dishing damage (higher levels mainly) but unless you're with a mage or a bird than you're stuck fighting the same mob for like 2 mins. :/

Well, this game was built to be played with a party, as you know. So a bird and mage may struggle living, like the bears have trouble dealing damage. I'd just like to see the bears' capabilities used to it's full potential. With the unneeded stats as Elly pointed out, and the fact that beckon is becoming much less effective due to enemies' dodge (Which, like Elly said, is pretty much the only thing that gives a bear the edge over another class at end game), they're slowly becoming the pointless spot waster in the party.

[Otukura]

Well, this game was built to be played with a party, as you know. So a bird and mage may struggle living, like the bears have trouble dealing damage. I'd just like to see the bears' capabilities used to it's full potential. With the unneeded stats as Elly pointed out, and the fact that beckon is becoming much less effective due to enemies' dodge (Which, like Elly said, is pretty much the only thing that gives a bear the edge over another class at end game), they're slowly becoming the pointless spot waster in the party.

WRT the "played with a party" -- I agree with that at endgame, but look at sewers; when Nuri's came out, no one was there, it was too slow to solo when you weren't on an elixir. I'm actually hoping they make campaigns a little bit easier once the cap is raised.

[Ellyidol]

I noticed in the first level of mt.fang that whilst soloing (not juiced up on elixirs) I did like 60 damage on one enemy. I think soloing as a bear is out of the question, IMO. I mean I know warriors mainly excel in taking damage as opposed to dishing damage (higher levels mainly) but unless you're with a mage or a bird than you're stuck fighting the same mob for like 2 mins. :/

Well, this game was built to be played with a party, as you know. So a bird and mage may struggle living, like the bears have trouble dealing damage. I'd just like to see the bears' capabilities used to it's full potential. With the unneeded stats as Elly pointed out, and the fact that beckon is becoming much less effective due to enemies' dodge (Which, like Elly said, is pretty much the only thing that gives a bear the edge over another class at end game), they're slowly becoming the pointless spot waster in the party.

WRT the "played with a party" -- I agree with that at endgame, but look at sewers; when Nuri's came out, no one was there, it was too slow to solo when you weren't on an elixir. I'm actually hoping they make campaigns a little bit easier once the cap is raised.

Agree, soloing is almost never an option for a bear (unless you want to elixir up). Furthermore, especially not a strength bear. The only path for soloing effectively is eitehr dex or int.

[maneatingtree]

Is this also for warbirds?

[Ellyidol]

Is this also for warbirds?

Not quite. The PvE aspect revolves around bear-specifics, so they don't apply to birds.

For the PvP bit, especially since its gear related, I actually try to show that the current Fang strength crafted gear are suited more towards paladins/warbirds. In fact, I think the strength stats are actually awesome for a warbird. Dodge for survivability, crit and damage for offense, and good HS/MS for sustainability.

Whether its better for a pally or a warbird, I wouldn't know since I do not fully know the strengths and weaknesses of either. Personally, IMO, if that 5 MS was turned into a a different stat which would be beneficial to bears, then I'd have to say it would make bears more potent and at the same time make them the prime strength class again.

However to be honest, if full PvP balance was the aim, gear wouldn't be effective to balance IMO, due to the diversity of hybrids. Class specific changes are minimum to balance PvP.

[WhoIsThis]

I'm a bit hesitant to jump to conclusions here.

The demonic strongman set was far from optimized for bear, but bears were very powerful in 1v1 with it. For birds, basically if beckon hit, the bird was dead. Repulse was ineffective due to the high dodge. They also completely dominated staff mages as well.

That said I am forced to agree that strength gear has not been made with bears in mind.

Edit: Neither was PvE for str bears. Not a huge problem right now as all elixir bears should be using dex gear anyways (don't need tank gear with a 4x), but down the road, it could be a problem.

Hmm... I'd say that the solution is for beckon to never miss regardless of your hit% and enemy dodge% for PvE and perhaps a revamp of the taunt skill.

[Elyseon]

Yeh why the ms, bears only need like 5 total and theyre good, every boss but aunt emma is close combat and easily kited, aunt emma is unable to be stood near...also we get a sword, not greatest dmg

Soo...
Just lookin at stuff and all the mage gear has the same armour as tank gear?...
This is the crafted stuff im looking at, No wonder we're getting screwed and birds is only like 5 less per item >_<

Which class is supposed to tank . . .


If u look at the top gear since lvl50(which i remember as a pretty level playing field for pvp) you will notice a decline in the armour value difference of int and str: cosmos had about 27 less than rift, enchanted still had like 30 less than fortified, demonic int had only 19 less than demonic str, then the new crafted are equal. The main so looks like next update should result in mages tanking and nuking birds blasting down bosses, and the bears sitting in towne:worthless.
Remember in the shadow caves, only that tank could survive to beat the witch now mages will be doing everything.
NOTE:i didnt add in set bonus addition to armour which may give a slightly better lead.

I personally think the armour difference of the sets should be getting larger because say at lvl100 if the mage set has even 20 below the str then, the percentage of that to the total 350 armour will be very small and they could still easily tank, id like to see a solid 50 difference now

[elianel]

i agree bear need more power

[Ellyidol]

i agree bear need more power

I just want to clear this up. I'm not really looking to add more power to bears, after all, I want balance too. Just more utility.

IMO, right now, the only real reason I'd want a bear in PvE is Beckon. Other than that, I would prefer a pally as a "tank".

[Phoenixking]

Yeah makes much sense, the only difference between a bear and a pally is that bear has beckon if that beckon doesnt work then whats the point? Better a pally cause it can heal spam and have survivability bears are going downhill really quick...

[Elyseon]

Yeah makes much sense, the only difference between a bear and a pally is that bear has beckon if that beckon doesnt work then whats the point? Better a pally cause it can heal spam and have survivability bears are going downhill really quick...

With str gear a bear still makes a better tank, more armour due to str, and has huge dodge buffs, if mages take over it will be the int mages: true no dodge boost but they can kill everyone so fast it doesn't matter