I agree on all points.
Well said.
Nice job.
I agree on all points.
Well said.
Nice job.
Extremely good post with thoughtfulness incorporated.
It's hard to get a good comment from me, so you should feel very accomplished
I agree/disagree with many things said.
I'm very agreeing with the Platinum->Gold Elixirs, however the Combo only runs seem sort of freedom-taking. People may simply be isolated if they don't use Plat, and the majority of people now only run on Elixirs.
Long time ago when I started leveling Xwhirlz, I saw so many sewers runs that functioned 100% correctly without elixirs and so many farmings without elixirs.
I believe since Elixirs came out, people basically do the following, in order;
-Get elite cap or unelite maximum cap
-PVPers go PVP, rest go hibernate until next campaign
I used to WANT to get the elite cap. Now, I feel FORCED to, because I want the reward.
Long time ago, THERE were actually low level people in the lower level campaigns. This is the only game in which the lower level campaigns(AKA not Mt.Fang) are usually empty, except for Forest Haven.
I have also noticed the amount of players drop 20-30% already.
We get less and less new players join, and when some do, they simply get bored with the content.
The above is from one cause:
Platinum elixirs have become so much of an influence since Sewers, and now dominate the overall amount of dungeons being played. Think about it. What farming runs can actually work out without someone on combo elix in Mount Fang?
None. Some leave when they so no one on elixir, or when a lot of people die.
Another issue, is the soloing. At high levels in other games, it is STILL POSSIBLE to solo the dungeons EASILLY with the top gear(sometimes easily without top gear).
However, right now, with a Full Crafted Lv65 Lilith Staff Set, and three vanities plus a vanity face, ring, and everything possible(top gear), a bear/bird/mage CANNOT properly solo a dungeon AT ALL.
This was the same for Nuri.
However, in AO3 and Sewers, while it was Pretty hard, it was still possible.
I believe STS is making the difficulties of each new campaign a little harder each time, perhaps to increase the amount of elixireres exponentially.
I do still believe STS is doing great. They just opened the computer component of the game. Now, people who don't have iPod/Phone/Pad/Droid/XPERIA/etc, can now also be sucked into spending platinum.
Not to mention Dark Legends.
I think STS just needs to SLOWWWW IT DOWN!!
Remember, all moral thoughts are what is used when dealing with the market, and one is very important: Slow,reliable, and steady wins the race against speedy, ambicious, and uncautious.
Well, not the exact phrase, but you get the point.
In the end, I believe that STS will become a great and dominant game company, perhaps the next WoW.
There has been many bumps like these in the past, although this time it is a pretty long bump, the STS team will roll past it, and win the race.
Hopefully.
Strongly disagree there, it was hard in Nuri's, because one mess-up would force you to respawn, but I find Fang easily solo-able.Originally Posted by Whirlzap
More so than Nuri - true enough. Boggy was soloable without elixir, although Symphony was hard even with elixir to solo. The "gravestone" and "death shots" would always get you.
Fang can be soloed, but it will take a LONG time. As mentioned above, the mobs don't hit as hard, but have a lot of hp. This makes it more solo-friendly.
What we have here is a perfect example of constructive criticism and that is, in my opinion, demonstrating both respect for the game and discontent with its faults without being overly harsh. Well written, well organized, well developed, and well done (not the cooked meat kind of well done either)! Hopefully future criticisms will be handled with as much clarity and consideration as has been demonstrated here!
Proud Member of Eclipse
PL: Rocshana[main, lvl 75]
AL: Roc [warrior] with my trusty puppy Crescent
This is one of the most culminating posts I've ever read. Just for your knowledge, I read every word of your two parts. It hooked me in such a manner that I could not take my eyes from the screen. I precisely agree with your views and thoughts. However may I make a few points?
Firstly, the average PL player doesn't have nearly 117k kills. In some later research I found the average 50+ player had 14k kills. I myself have 40k kills. I'll explain why us high levels see levels see 55+ going into nuris hallows with an embarrassing 2-9k kills. It is by reason of power leveling. Which is a topic I do NOT want to get started on. I am not trying to start a flame or a spark in which dilemmas readers. I'm simply making a correction. The player we saw Oviously used Platnium if he/she wasn't here before ao3. How else were they to get 117k kills in such a short amount of time?
About the elixir issue. Many young PL addicts cannot afford to spend 100-500 dollars on Platnium! I myself fall into that category. Many elixir users in PL have jobs and play when they are not working. How do I know this? I've met and talked with many many of these types of players! I think STS should altogether make the campaigns easier. Isnt this the reason all this started? -aside the issue of pocket legends Devs getting cheap and not caring for us anymore.
•another point, whereas brings up another question. Why have the developers seeming getting "lazy" with the new campaigns? Is it because they are too overwhelmed with SL? Perhaps not paying any attention at all to the well beings of the PL community.(which I'm sure is not true, because they have been working very hard for PL)
These are some of my points and opinios I'd like to share along with the thread owner.
-apocket
Proud member of COT
Then let me correct your "correction". To begin with, for most of my kills I did not. Over one year is not a short amount of time. I'd estimate that at least ~90k kills were not on elixir. This is completely off topic though and I want this thread kept on topic. Sorry if I sound defensive, but I think I have some right to defend what I did not use elixirs for and not have false accusations fly in my face.
Edit:
If you are wondering, according to Sxybabrz, a standard 4X elixir can give you ~1,500 kills in Nuri. And Sxy (who recently renamed again) has vastly more kills than me.
Edit 2:
In case you are wondering, Oreii also managed 500,000 kills in an even shorter amount of time.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 12-10-2011 at 12:12 AM.
I have 11k kills on my main that has been here since May 8th 2010.
I would like this thread kept on topic please.
Pl is a great game and I think the points you brought out are practical... I have onlybeen playing about 6 months but I have allready seen a decline in quality I think your pvp suggestions should not be over looked. It has become a growing problem. So I ask the devs please take note of what your players want out pl keep up the best mmo..... Great job elf
This was a slight nostalgia attack! I started playing right after the first Halloween event so I call myself an "old" player. This was the BEST thread I have read that talks about how we can improve PL! I have an idea also that might help a little. How about we just bring back the "go anywhere you want no matter your level"? I LOVED this feature and I welcomed any low level entering my games! It makes the game feel so less "restricted". I had more fun trying to kill an elite djinn with a lvl 20 character than this "lvl'd up, next place , grind exp and items, lvl'd up, next place" way of playing. (Remember when elixers were looked as just some insignificant feature back then but now it seems neccesary?)
Visit the SL Lore thread for more knowledge on the history behind SL! (Click me!)
Visit the official Infinite Union Website to join the tribe, hang out, or chat in the forums!
The problem there is that it brings leeching. There was a reason why in the AO3 days, non-level 50s were often booted on sight, especially for Victory Lap runs. A good 45-49 is always better than a bad 50, but even so, the perception of leeching was always there.
For now it seems, it's a platinum only feature.
Thank you for the excellent post! It's rare to see people thinking so in-depth about the game. I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of the idea of separating platinum and non-platinum users in dungeons. I think this would widen the divide and the tension between people using different kinds of elixirs, rather than mitigate it. Unless the non-elixir dungeons would have some sort of bonus to them, the non-elixir users would feel excluded. On the other hand adding a bonus for non-plat users would alienate those who spend the most on the game, so it wouldn't be feasible either.
If that's true - and I certainly also heard guildmates express similar thoughts about how they can't believe how much money they spent on plat - then we really can't blame STS for what the game became. I think they didn't want the game to be this way but they had to bend to what the market demanded. We made this happen as consumers. Think of how PL used to be in the early days - a very fair game that did not sell power for real money. And what was the result? People would complain when a dungeon like AO3 with tons of new content cost 20 platinum. It was a very fair well-designed game, and I bet it was making a lot less money than it should have been. So then the game turned around and did what it said it would not do, and sold power - and it worked.
A lot of my friends who spent a lot of money on elixirs are now complaining (months later!) that the game has become all about platinum and no longer satisfies them. Take a minute to think about the irony of that. I am grateful to them for supporting the game, and for making my leveling life easier when I was running with them. But I think it shows that as consumers we have no idea what we want. How can we expect STS to know what makes us happy until we figure it out ourselves?
Kalielle - level 56 mage | Kaley - level 55 roundup bear | Clusterstorm - level 55 rush paladin
Pocket Legends Video Tutorial
The solution I must admit is imperfect. But I do feel that the elixir people are entitled to not have leechers, especially as they paid. I myself have seen that elixir users demand that people pot or boot. I can see why - non-elixir users don't add much firepower and level as well.
I don't think there should be any more pressure to use elixirs in the non-elixir dungeons. There is nobody that they are interacting with to pressure them, unlike in the current arrangement. I think there should be less, because they can't buy elixirs in the non-elixir dungeons. Would it create a permanent class-divide? Well, first, non-elixir and elixir users are much less likely to interact with each other in PvE, and I suppose this is both a benefit (less pressure for non-elixir and no leecher for elixir) and drawback (meet fewer new people). But on the other hand, there are no barriers per se. Elixir users can stop whenever they wish and non-elixir users can buy whenever they wish. So I don't think that it will create a barrier.
People complaining is not the problem. People thinking about quitting though ... is another matter entirely.
Whatever consumers want, burning a lot of platinum for 1 hour 4x combo elixirs is not it. Truth be told, different people probably have different ideas. I have illustrated what I think will satisfy the vast majority.
I suppose I really can't disagree with that, as much as it bothers me. The way the game is set up, non-elilxir users have indeed been turned into leechers.
But doesn't it make you feel uneasy at all when your performance in a game is determined by how much real money you spend on it? I mean, is it even a game at that point? By your own definitions, you're less valuable as a guildmate and group member compared to the friends of yours you mentioned who spend $1000 on the game. MMOs are about showing off success to other players in a virtual world, and whether you segregate elixir users or not, the real issue remains - that success is now granted exclusively in exchange for real money, because elixir users can level much faster and farm the best gear much easier, and their advantage is so big that other players can't overcome (or even equal it) it even if they had immense skill or the most brilliant strategies.
It's not that I'm against spending money on games - on the contrary, I think people have a duty to support the games they love. I maintain 3 World of Warcraft subscriptions for my household, and spend money on many games every month and I don't even think about it twice. It's just - if I get dismissed from a raid in WoW for my low dps for example, I know I can't pay Blizzard a fee to fix it. I'll have to go and do things in the game instead to improve. And that's what makes it a game. If your success in game depends upon your success in real life, then it doesn't feel like a game anymore, and that's what makes me uncomfortable about it.
Kalielle - level 56 mage | Kaley - level 55 roundup bear | Clusterstorm - level 55 rush paladin
Pocket Legends Video Tutorial
This is a very thoughtful, well-constructed post. I hope the developers and community at large both appreciate the effort invested in producing it.
There's a lot here I agree with, but I'd like to talk about one part that I think would be extremely problematic. You suggested that PvP should be capable of providing drops, basically so that those players need never do anything in PvE again. I don't know what to think about that goal (maybe it would be great for PL, maybe not). However, implementation of the suggestion itself would bring a world of complication. The basic problem is that PvP is, by definition, a game in which players control the difficulty. Having a system that gives out hard-to-acquire items that is controlled entirely by the players themselves would immediately be gamed and abused. After all, if players can get pinks by simply firing up PvP with a "cooperative foe", they can use this system to crank out "pink drop chances" much easier than farming the PvE side of the game.
This fundamental problem would open a gigantic can of worms. The possible outcomes are:
1. PvP becomes the new way to get pinks. PvP becomes the farming grounds, the PvE community is now forced to do PvP just to farm (ironically a complete reversal from PvP players who are "forced" to do some PvE today), and the bottom drops out of the resale market as pinks flood the shop.
2. PvP drop rate is tuned to compensate for players gaming the system to be much lower than PvE. This would prevent all the negatives of item 1 above, but would basically defeat the purpose of the idea. PvP players would get things so rarely that it would do little to address the issue it was intended to solve. The idea ends up having no practical effect on the problem, and PvP players are back to square 1.
3. The devs resolutely commit to creating such a system with a bunch of rules that prevent abuse of PvP as a pink farming ground. There are rules about battle having to go on for a certain duration, or with a certain number of players, or certain amount of damage dealt to each player, etc etc. This is all in an attempt to detect and thwart players "taking a dive" to farm pinks in PvP. Inevitably, the rules will be insufficient, loopholes will be found and PvP farmers will enter an endless cat-and-mouse game with the devs over farming pinks "the easy way". This will either take lots of effort and attention away from the main development the devs ought to be doing, or else a bad system will simply be left in place and provide for endless grumbling about fairness in the community.
In summary, although I understand the idea and the rationale behind it, I believe this idea is doomed to fail in its execution. The fundamental problem is that players control how hard PvP is, and therefore any reward attached to it will inevitably be gamed to unfair advantage. I predict it would be a huge source of drama, bad feelings and community and developer discontent.
The thing is - with a segregation system, nobody in the 3rd category can dismiss you if you had no elixirs because they don't and people in the 2nd category can't dismiss you because you can't enter with an elixir. The segregation system would see to that.
I could however a rift growing between the permanent elixir and non-permanent, but as I mentioned, there are no barriers to either side.
Strictly, the people without elixirs can always level the traditional way if they wish and pursue the elite levels, collect the best pinks, etc. It's only that for a given amount of time spent, the elixir users will be more productive. Given that there will be less interaction in game, it should actually ease tensions somewhat. None of this is applicable as well in PvP where elixirs don't count.
The goal is to make PvE and PvP both a venue for farming. Drops would be unaltered in PvE. It's just that drops would also occur in PvP. The only thing that might happen is a drop in your chances in PvE to get a pink to compensate and make sure that the same number of pinks is on the market.
The point is to make the drops roughly the same rate for both. That way, neither is favored. Number 3 is the most probable, although it's harder to boost than you think. I don't think that a cat and mouse game would result. For one, you need a target that is willing to just stand there and die. I have proposed a mechanism to prevent people with 2 devices, and that should cover most of it.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 12-10-2011 at 03:55 PM.
I understand the point, but I still believe execution would be the problem. You said they could do something to prevent one person using two devices and therefore being both sides of the "contest". But this doesn't address the very real problem of two legitimately different devices used by two different people from gaming the system. Think about all those hard-core farming guilds that exist now. You think they'd hesitate for a second to have two member agree to take a dive in PvP if they thought it would get them a faster route to pinks? So in the end, there would have to be a lot of effort put into making PvP not the "easy way" to pick drops even with "two device" protection mechanisms.
I get what the goal is and why you suggested it. If there were a way to do it, it might even be better for PL. It's just never going to work in practice.
Very good. 6/5.
What would be your opinion on some possible veterans awards?
rhinomagic[/B]
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