Yet another (but hopefully more insightful) thread on the COP, Shield, and now Armor
To begin with, there has been much controversy regarding the crown of persistence and the set bonuses that have since spawned. This thread is an attempt to settle this once and for all.
Most of this is intended for level cap PvP, but twinkers might find something of value and are encourage to read this.
Background Information
Around Spring of 2011, one of the devs indicated shortly after the release of the Sewers that the Crown would in the future make up a set. Much speculation grew and during the Sewer days, people were disappointed that the crown had lackluster stats, with calls to make it a vanity, very much comparable to the Founder's Helm, although with stats tailored for each class. At least a few people did not get the crown because they felt it was not "worth" it.
Over 6 months later, Nuri's Hallows was released and at first, there was (to great disappointment) no vanity for reaching 61. Shortly after that, a vanity came out, the shield, and with it, a great controversy regarding the introduction of set bonuses. That controversy has largely torn up the community and has led to flaming.
All complaints thus far have been from PvP players.
Current Situation
With each successive level, there will likely be a new vanity item (until they run out of vanity items anyways; although they can always introduce new ones) that will further boost stats. This is leading to a controversy between players as the gap between non-cap and cap increases.
Recommendations
To begin with, I believe that the set should be kept for PvP. Remember that many players spent platinum ONLY because they were going to get this in PvP, so removing it would have a strongly negative effect and a disincentive for players to level in the future, leading to more complaints in the future about lack of content.
1. As a courtesy to all new players, I recommend that whenever asked to do so in a 1v1, remove your vanity set. I think that out of fairness, it is well worth doing so in order to encourage further PvPing. Most veteran players can usually win against a beginner anyways. You only need to take the set off when asked in 1v1; leave it on for FFA or CTF.
To begin with, in an MMO, equipment makes a noticeable difference, but a combination of luck (from dodges, crits, and damage in the damage range) and most importantly, skill are decisive factors. If you have come from an RTS background (like me) or an FPS one, this will take some adjustment. I recommend that you get comfortable with your equipment in PvE and understand it's strengths/weaknesses first before PvPing.
I had an incident a while back in the demonic days:
I fought with an anonymous player (who I will not name) and won. The player called me a "noob", blamed the vanity set, and asked me to remove it. I complied.
I then beat the player without the set. They claimed that demonic was the cause. This is not unreasonable, as I myself have found that demonic gives a HUGE advantage over the non-demonic glyph.
Finally, I fought with Mega Mage and beat the player in level 60 glyph. They were at a loss and rage quit.
This is not an isolated event and I'm sure and most veteran PvPers can tell you about a very similar story.
The set has been described as the difference between victory and defeat. While the gap is growing with each new level cap, it's not as decisive as billed. Nonetheless, I recommend removing the set as a courtesy if asked.
Oh, and with the founder's helm ... same idea. Remove it if asked. I guess the stats on the founder's helm could make a big difference at low level twinking (especially under level 10). The higher the level, the less big of a difference the helm makes. Even at low level, I am not sure how big a difference it is. I used to be of the opinion myself that founder's could be decisive, but as the empirical evidence to the contrary piled up, quickly changed.
On the other hand, if you do not feel obligated to, should you remove the set? Hmm. By rights, you've earned your set and you have every right to wear it whenever you want. It's up to you, but under most circumstances I would. The exception may be dealing with a player who will whine even if you did comply. Likewise, the player that does not have the set may decline to fight if the other player with the set if they wish if the higher level refuses.
2. The next idea (optional) is a bit more controversial. I recommend that all players that created accounts before 30 days of Nuri's Hallows be given a quest. They need to kill 100,000 minions in Mt. Fang once they reach 66 to get a crown of persistence. Elixirs don't accelerate this one (because plat elixirs not around in their present form for the Sewers; players used a combination of just grinding and gold elixirs, which take time since you need to actually raise the gold needed to buy the elixirs, which is quite costly). The 30 day window is there because it would be hard to get to level cap outside of 30 days.
Players who have created new accounts within 30 days of Mt. Fang's release should get 2 quests for 100,000 minions (or be in a team that gets 100,000 minions; roughly the same). The same quest as before, but a second one for the shield. The shield one could be accelerated by elixirs (out of fairness, since we had them). They should get a chance to get it because it is fair.
Details
However, if they miss 200 days, I would agree that they had their chance. An example. Suppose I were to create an account the day before Mt. Fang came out. I would have a chance to get all vanity first. Then the other 2 quests, first the crown and second the shield (issued by the Fallen at each dungeon). From the day that they get to the level cap, they have 200 days to complete these quests (there should be a pretty clear notification). After that, they forfeit these 2 items.
Similarly, suppose that a player created an account right before Nuri came out - 100 days this time to get 100,000 minions. I would argue that these time frames are fair, since STS has indicated that there will be a cap rise every 3 months (adjust if the cap is raised less often; which I think it should be). They already had a chance to get the shield, since they joined right before the Nuri's Hallows came out.
One advantage (that I deliberately built in) was the level cap mobs are more difficult to kill than Sewer mobs are - this is deliberate. They have a chance, but it will be more difficult; this is the reward for joining early.
The Exclusion
Notice that players who did not get these items outside of the 30 day window won't be able to get them - EVER.
Why should players who did not create accounts who have been around the most be denied the opportunity to get these items unless they create another account?
The majority of these players (who I note are the most vocal in complaining) like us did not know what was coming. The only reason why people want it is for PvP. Well, PvP requires dedication and patience. To become skilled at it, you will need to die several thousand times. PvPers will go to extra lengths for even minor advantages - the faces and rings were introduced for PvP primarily. Notice how many PvP players hide their stats on the left side? This is because they have often spent hundreds of plat in re-specs in what they think is the optimal PvP build and they don't want others to do copy their build for no effort.
If a player lacks the dedication needed to get to 56, then how can they ever succeed in the world of PvP? They have demonstrated a lack of dedication and discipline, while demanding the fruits of labor. Even if you gave them the crown, shield, and vanity armor for free, they would be right back here on the forums (and in game) moaning about how they are performing poorly and how complaining about a bunch of other things, while calling other players "noobs". It's called The Crown of Persistence for a reason. It will be the only vanity cap item at this point that will ever be achieved (by most players) without an elixir boost (or with gold elixirs only).
Excuses vary from not having enough time to not having enough money. You had SIX MONTHS to get from 55 to 56. No excuses IMO. (Maybe less if you joined later, but in most cases, still months of time.) Nuri's Hallows from 60 to 61 can be done in under 10 hours (I have seen it). Not having enough time nor willing to spend money? Remember what I said about PvP needing time ... you need to spend much more time become good at PvP than to reach a ~100k level cap.
Most likely the player I described in 1 will quit PvP, complain a lot, and hide their PvP stats. PvP is not something that can be learned in a day. If you did not have enough "time" to reach 56 or 61, trust me, you won't have enough time to be able to adequately learn to become a good PvP player. I suppose the only exception is people who have had other MMO experience. Of course, for them this is a non-issue. If you have enough time to play many MMOs, you clearly had enough time to reach the level cap.
Many players who will be denied this will make excuses. I once knew a person who wanted to run for a marathon as did his friends. While his friends after they ate lunch would sit back, hang out, and talk, he would jog. This went on for months. When the marathon came, he did well, considering it was his first marathon. His friends didn't and were astounded. My friend told me this - his buddies didn't have their minds set out on it. Maybe they wanted the end results, but they were unwilling to put in the time needed. They said they were "busy" with studying for school ... right; if school was so "busy", as my friend noticed, why did they find the time to hang out (both at lunch and after school and after dinner)? Maybe the marathon just wasn't their priority - eating, socializing, and hanging out was. Likewise, in real life, most of these people probably had spare time. I'm a university student myself. I know how busy it is. Excuses vary from work, family, life, career, study ... you name it. The point is, in the real world, results matter, not excuses.
PvP needs dedication. In PvE, once you know how to beat a level, that's it. With your friends, you can study how to beat it more effectively and you will have as fast runs as possible. The difficulty is dealing with PUGs, who often lack the skill needed for a high speed run (and in some cases will not be able to complete a run due to the poor quality of players). PvP is a different ballgame. Every time, you may fight a different group of opponents. Your old opponents may have respeced or changed their playstyle or just gotten better.
Notice that these players have the option of creating a new account under my suggestion. If they change their minds and decide that it IS important enough to get the vanity, they always have that option. By doing so, they will have demonstrated that they are willing to put in the effort and rightfully deserve the benefits.
What do I think STS should do?
There are a great many things I would like to change about PL (more on this one in another thread).
However, for the set bonus, not much. People need some incentive to get to the level cap beyond a simple vanity. Implementing option 2, I think would go a long way towards getting rid of the whiners (although there are some people who are so entitled that they deserve contempt).
That said, there are some things that need change:
1. Bird equipment needs a buff, probably a crit buff
2. The mage staff is underpowered relative to the wand and needs a buff
3. Bears have been marginalized and need equipment more bear friendly (ex: less emphasis on mana regen).
I also believe that a PvP rewards system needs to be implemented to allow players to make money from PvP. Payoff should roughly be comparable to PvE - 1 hour of PvE and PvP should give the same payoffs. PvPers should also have the same chances to get pinks as PvE (scaled by level - ex: 35s would have a chance at Voodoo, but not level cap items, while level cap gets exclusively level cap drops).
What would an outstanding player do?
I always have had great respect for players that fight regardless of whether they are at a disadvantage or not. When I was a level 56 in MM and I fought a level 52 who insisted on fighting me. He/she said that he thought I was good (or better than any of the others he had fought that day) and that the only way he would ever be competent is if he fought opponents who were tougher than he was. I offered to use level 50 shadow gear (as he was using 50 gear). He insisted that I stay in MM to make it tougher for him. I was very moved by what he said to me. Several people have asked me (I don't know why me to be honest) to teach them. There are only a handful of people who I would have accepted. The vast majority, I decline immediately seeing that they want results without the effort. Had this player asked, I would have been honored.
Contrast this with people who use the fact that they are 2-3 levels lower than you are as an excuse for their being defeated. It's their choice to enter the arena or to level to the level cap before doing so - not that a couple of levels makes that big a difference. Level first, the enter (the exception of course is in twinking).
I do however feel that no mercy should be given to rushers and people who call others "noobs" and the like. It's best if they were forced out through multiple defeats. They can join the others that hid their stats and the PvP community would be a better place because they left. The reason why I am so harsh on such players is not because of veterans, who can usually give rushers a good whipping - it's the new players that want to learn that want to be good. It can be incredibly discouraging when you don't know PvP to have somebody rushed (it happened to me when I began) or to be called a "noob".
There are players who are better than me. Some I have great respect for. Others, not so much, not because of their skill (which is often better than mine), but because they lack empathy, care too much about K/D, have huge egos, or taunt people when they win. Usually a combination of those.
Stats don't matter. There are people who try to "ratio" as it's called and "kill boost".
On that note, if you want mine, I have nothing to hide (this photo was taken a week before the release of Mt. Fang; will update later):
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/atta...9&d=1321215007
I have tried to live by this code, although I shall be the first to admit that I have sometimes failed.
A good PvP player should:
Always be modest, and never deliberately kick down a player when winning (unless the loser proves to be a sore loser).
Always attempt to play a reasonably fair game (no 1v3s in Forest Fight, no spawn killing in the a flag room in CTF).
Should not have to resort to tactics like rushing people.
When they lose, excuses like low level or inferior gear are not acceptable (lag may be, but it is your choice to play when you lag - I recommend not PvPing when lagging if possible).
Fight people who they are disadvantaged against because it's hard and doing so will improve your skills as a PvPer - including against players with level cap sets
Most importantly, good players don't need excuses, to ratio, or to boast about their skills. Their results speak for themselves.
Originally Posted by protectorofnoobs
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