What's your conclusion???

[MightyMicah]

Recently I leveled my main character to 65. I made him pure dex and got him a good set. Crafted helm and crossbow, and normal outfit and longbow (don't remember actual names.)

I started pvping and at first thought I was doing well. Then I started dying a ton and I slowly began to realize something. I was losing 9 times out of 10 to every character, Mage, archer, or warrior, as long as they had one thing...the vanity bonus.

All other characters I fought without vanity bonus I killed about 4/5 times which is about what I was hoping for, however whenever vanity got involved, it was pure ownage.

I have learned to dread the red and yellow colors. Yes I have read the countless posts with people complaining about the vanity bonus and my thoughts were "man up. Win." Now I understand just what the complaints were about.

About this time I can tell you are thinking this is just another complaint thread. Well I can tell you this, it is not. Do I plan to whine and complain until Sts is forced to submit? Of course not. I plan to do just what my advice was to other complainers. Man up.

All of this, however does not change the fact that I believe the vanity bonuses are completely unfair, but not in every way. They help in pve, and they should. After all they were awarded from great valiance in PvE. But that's just it. It was PvE that causes you to dominate in PvP? Something isn't right. (I know what you are thinking again )

I also know that I have a solution which I don't believe has been thought of before. let me get this straight, If we remove the vanities from PvP or PvE or both, people get upset; even if there is good compensation. If not, others are still upset because they don't get a bonus and never can get the full bonus. How can everyone be happy?

Make a PvP Vanity Bonus!!!!!! (you are now thinking "wow really?" Let me explain. Those who have already earned the vanity bonus are like "no way I'm earning a whole new vanity set, the one I have took forever to get! That's what makes my solution so good.

Every person who has already earned the vanity bonus automatically Gets the set which technically should be earned in PvP. (a little messed up, but a developing game like PL has its oddities) It can have the same stats as the current vanity set bonus, it would just look different. This takes care of everyone who spent a lot of time to acquire the vanities. Their time will by no means have been wasted.

This conclusion also opens the door for those who never got the vanity bonus for whatever reason, Lazy, Joined the game too late, didn't understand what the vanities were (that's me ) etc.

Now all of these people have a chance to earn the vanity bonus in PvP (Not in PvE mind you. That is still separate.) At this point I don't really have a system for how to earn the PvP vanities but I have a few ideas

1. Must achieve X amount of kills. (simple enough)
2. Must achieve X amount of kills in a certain time period (a little trickier)
3. Must recover from less than 50 health X amount of times (out of the box? U like? Me gusta?)
4. Must kill X amount of people in a row without dying (come on these are good! )

Please everyone. How would you feel to be utterly screwed in top level PvP? I know you like having your unique PvP skills from your vanity; I would too!; but the simple fact is, it just is not right. Imagine all the new guys joining the game hitting top level and realizing they can't compete on even grounds. That would flat out suck. Can we at least consider this idea of mine? Not just ignore this thread or flame it?

This right here. This thread is my conclusion to fixing end level PvP. What's yours?...I think it's time we find out just what kind of people are in these forums.

~MM

[StompArtist]

If the small bonus of end game bonus gear is enough to affect PvP to that much of an extent then it's the whole PvP scheme that is flawed. In any other game a small bonus does not create such a large gap in battle... Part of why I never liked PvP in this game to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.

[Xazic]

This has been suggested before, and what about some oldies like Kanital with huge kills... He will instantly have huge bonuses. That would make him even better, wouldn't it?

[CrimsonTider]

Coming from someone who is an average pvper...and this is just my opinion... experience > vanity bonuses. There are so many other factors to pvp other than the bonuses and experience is the greatest of all. The reason why I say this is because of my recent venture into twink pvp, more specifically 50-56. I do better at this level than at end game but I also realize I am facing individuals who are "just passing through." They may be a level 52 for a couple of days but plan on being end game within a week.

Compare this with the end-game scene where the "best" have been pvping longer than a lot of people have even been playing PL. If you factor in all the vanity bonuse (1 crit, 5 dodge, 55 health, 14 armor if I remeber correctly), they are helpful but not HUGE. Rings can be just as helpful as some of these bonuses if you know which to use.


Another factor which I am just now starting to figure out (after 6 months) is range. Understanding the range of your weapons and skills is much bigger IMO because if someone is get their skills off before you becuase they realize they are within range and you don't, you're dead. Simple as that. Please don't misunderstand me, gear does help, vanities do help, but an overall understanding of the pvp scheme is much greater.

My 2 plat...

EDIT: And as Xazic just stated, those who have been around for a long time and have achieved numbers some of us only dream of, they would be even more powerful. I think pvp is good where it is at. Also, remember that end game isn't the only comminity involved in pvp. There is already hate towards the Founders Helm in twinking and the addition of new bonuses would only cause more of a stir.

[adidaman]

Why don't we just nerf everything. The end

[Walkhardd]

Crimson pretty much said it already..for the most part, the top end game pvprs all have the vanity bonus..the players you were beating without the vanity are either newer players, or ppl that dont take pvp quite as serious. (there are exceptions)..I'm willing to bet that if some of those guys that beat you would still win if they took the set off.


Edit: that last part sounded a little mean when I read it over..promise I wasnt trying to.

[MightyMicah]

@stompartist, It's much more than a small bonus. For me, being a nuke dex bird, it's the difference between winning and losing. Even if it was small, my main idea was to give others some sort of chance to get the bonus. Not be permanently screwed.

@Xazic, Simple as making it a "starting now" kind of deal. Even If not however, my point remains that others will be given a chance. As well, they will have no greater bonus than that which the current vanities give. Perhaps I failed in clarity on that...

@CrimsonTider, I understand the experience bit. Please don't take this the wrong way but, you are talking to a guy who was pvping with most of the oldies. I have the so called "experience" an it definitely helps. However, the vanity is enough to screw me in practically every fight.

@Walkkhard, Don't worry! I don't get offended easily no offense taken. I do respectfully disagree though. I used to beat a lot of guys who now I don't stand a chance against. I don't believe lack of evidence is my problem.

[Riccits]

i must admit too that ppl without vanitys are much easier to kill than ppl with vanitys.. if i remove mine iam easier to kill too.
IMO the bonus is relativley huge than it may seems in numbers.. and yeah its about pvp skills too, of course, but in a fight of too equal skilled ppl the one with vanitys will win 2/10 fights more thought

[Jewelsofjane]

Rush and I test alot. Almost everyday we test another build, another ring, another face, vanity/no vanity. I can tell you that Vanities do make a difference. It is a small amount, but when going against someone of close to equal skill that small extra will determine who wins the match. Rush actually trains with no vanity, but for serious matches and ctf he will wear his vanity because there is a difference.

Yes, there should be some way to earn these vanities again. Especially for the new players. Imagine the next vanity stacked.... yea then it will no longer be a "small" amount extra.

[TheSnowman]

Personally i believe that the elite vanity rewards should loop every three campaigns or so. For instance a new helm for the new campaign Humania and then a shield for the next and then a body again. The people who got the initial helm, shield and body have an item that can show there 'elitism' and they can be used along with the the elite vanities for the same set bonus.

This will hopefully put a stop to people looking the same due to everyone who reaches the level cap wearing the same vanity items for the set bonus. New players have the chance to get the set bonus even though they arrived later to the party.

One issue i can foresee however is whether the players who have got the first three vanities would bother still trying to achieve a new helm only for the purpose of having a different look.

[MightyMicah]

Good idea! I think they would if it looked different and in their opinion better :\

[ZHEOTARE]

Why not just make it so vanity bonuses are negated in pvp arenas?? Even the party hats with +1 armor would be negated. That way it'd be skill/gear vs skill/gear.

*disclaimer* I dont pvp...

[Jewelsofjane]

Personally i believe that the elite vanity rewards should loop every three campaigns or so. For instance a new helm for the new campaign Humania and then a shield for the next and then a body again. The people who got the initial helm, shield and body have an item that can show there 'elitism' and they can be used along with the the elite vanities for the same set bonus.

This will hopefully put a stop to people looking the same due to everyone who reaches the level cap wearing the same vanity items for the set bonus. New players have the chance to get the set bonus even though they arrived later to the party.

One issue i can foresee however is whether the players who have got the first three vanities would bother still trying to achieve a new helm only for the purpose of having a different look.

I also agree with this. Its a win-win for everyone in my opinion, and I dont see it being a problem that prior people try for the new vanities. The whole purpose this was put in place was to give these players a longer experience in the game, so they dont level quickly and get bored. Also, some would not want the different look because they would want to have the old look as in saying "I have been around awhile"

Why not just make it so vanity bonuses are negated in pvp arenas?? Even the party hats with +1 armor would be negated. That way it'd be skill/gear vs skill/gear.

*disclaimer* I dont pvp...

The pvp players wouldnt hardcore grind to the end then.

[Kakatoa91]

Im interested in numbers MM.
Could you find someone serious who would do 100 pvp match with you with the vanity bonus and an other 100 fights without bonus but still same opponent(!).
50 each would b good too if u dont have time.
And why not doing that with each class.
I'm just curious if theres a big difference or not.
From there you could illustrate better your point by showing the result of the tests.

[Ixillicus]

This is the age old discussion.

Yes the vanity helps, no it doesn't mean that its a guaranteed win.

[CrimsonTider]

@Micah: No worries buddy, I am not offended that easily. As you stated, this is a feedback thread.

Based on what you stated, I took it as you are new to pvp. Now, based on your response, I am curious as tobwhether you have asked these individuals who you say you use to beat to a 1v1 without his/her vanities. To me, that is the only true test as to whether your theory holds up or not. An example for me is Cosmicghost. I can barely scratch him in CTF but there are other Crafted wand mages I have no trouble with. This is where my experience argument and skill understanding comes in.


I will emphasize again that I still consider myself "new" to pvp as I don't spend a 1/5 of the time in the arena that others posting here do.

EDIT: @Edensfury: I am sure the hardcore would still grind because of the fractional margin of improvement in stats and skills which is part of the discussion of this thread.

[Jewelsofjane]

This is the age old discussion.

Yes the vanity helps, no it doesn't mean that its a guaranteed win.

lol agree.... now if we could get a dev to make a response some day about what their thoughts are it might help this discussion to finally end....... ugh please devs, tell us what your thinking.

[MightyMicah]

So it sounds like right now what we need is some hardcore evidence as to whether the vanities effect it THAT much or not. It's easier said than done though.

I mean if I verse someone like Kanital, I'm probably gonna win 1/100 rounds vanity or not LOL, but someone like "mr noob" will win against me vanity or not 1/100. See what I mean?

I agree with Crimson, if people I used to beat are now beating me with vanities, there might be a problem. I would have to find someone of equal PvP skill as me and try vanities on and off for it to work out :\

[AbsolutePally]

Here is the main problem with "achieving kills" etc in pvp. Money. Money. Money.
I paid 200 dollars to have 4000 plat to get 5 of the vanities for two of my chars and level my bear. Sts would not allow someone to get this same thing for free, with just time spent. In this case time is not money.
Gg

But dont be fooled when you take your vanity off and lose initially. IT TAKES TIME TO ADJUST. Many think oh take it off I will win watch. And they do, at first. The reason is because ir messes with your timing,and flow. Timing of heals shields push backs freezes etc.
For example. Last night i was beating a non vanity guy easily (int craft vs int craft w vanity) then he said take em off. Well I began to lose, at first. He got happy, then I adjusted and won almost 10/1. Skills. Skills. Skills.

[Swimmingstar]

I agree with this and don't agree with this. The easy solution would be to take away vanities from PvP or nerf them, but there would be some rage. I can kill these vanity set people easily. At least some of them. But the more expierienced people take getting used to to beat. That proves PvP is more about skill. But vanity does make a big difference sometimes. The expierienced with vanity people can be killed easily when they take off vanity, but when they get used to it, they are getting more expierienced without being overpowered. Ask Absolute/Always. He expierienced this yesterday. We did many matches. He won the majority or the vanity matches and I managed to tie and even win matches after he had only the 66 vanity armor on. I was level 65.5 no cap vanities at all. This is just from experience /experiment.