Paladin in Arena of Honor (2022)

[Waug]

1) Every point you make I address

Really? So where's the counter point of this -(My very first post in this thread, that none had ansers "I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced."

It's not my fault you continue to not listen. We've been at this since 100 cap and you are still spouting the same nonsense despite the class getting 2 major nerfs that not only hurt them in endgame but also KILLED THEM in twink. How about you address the points I bring up that disputes your claims for a change.

Not listen? I've replied and provided valid points against yours, just like this one I'm replying each portion, maybe you just don't bother to listen, and when this class was nerfed? I can recall few buffs.

2) We already know Mythic has its problems, but that never stops you from contributing the issues of it with rhino. Not only is rhino not currently the best class to use, that's OPS bird, but when the cap came out it still wasn't the best. Mages were the strongest with int that's to set heals on top of being overly tanky. Rhinos took 3rd place behind archer who could beat them 7/10 times. It wasn't until people complained did Cinco seemly crank the damage output x9000 did we get in our current state, OPS included. So where exactly is this a rhino issue?

Where do you get this imaginary points dude? Do you really endgame pvp or just speculate? Someone saying mage OP in this cap, never heard of, the real ground level pvp makes you hear just all sort of odd statements but this odd? seriously, just to make you post long? In this whole thread it's you who bringing myth -rhino situation not me, in the past I've talked about several issues INCLUDING rhino, this thread it's you keep bringing that for nothing.

3) I did not deviate from anything. You just can't comprehend that everytime you try or successfully get rhinos nerfed you're condemning rhinos in twink also. That stunt you pulled in 100 cap is responsible for rhino dying out completely in twink when they were already at a disadvantage. All for what exactly? A measly 150 damage on axe that enabled them to be capable of getting kills? If rhinos were actually broken we could of just nerfed the set instead of the class.

When The class was nerfed? I can recall several buffs. Again the if scenario, like if Rhino is TP-ing from different side of the map then ok propose to nerf it's damage? makes sense?

Yet that begs the question of whether or not 100 rhino was even broken in the first place.

4) I bring them all up because they correlate together. You and Jen and any other person screaming nerf rhino want to see the class dismantled overall. Not just in endgame. My points still stand regardless, I've explained what the issues are with rhino in all the caps you complained about. 100, 105, and now 110. None of which are rhino problems but set problems

As already said, if it's TP behind from the wall then nerf it's set, The exact you can't / deny the reality that once these things are curved, we actually could buff the class in a good way, the thing I told many times in the past.

How can you sit here and says mages were broken in 80 because of dodge being so high, making it a set problem even tho it definitely wasn't, yet not show the same energy for rhino when it's 100% a set problem? Rhinos did not receive a single buff that im aware of in 85 cap so how all of a sudden they became broken? How did they go from being trash in 85 to "OP" in 100, to even more "OP" in 105 and 110? What phantom buffs did rhino receive? We know why foxes are op, they literally received a 25% damage buff.

Literally I don't know why I'm bothering to reply again and again who has zero clue what exactly happened, you just stating some assumptions here. clear assumptions, neither you were there doing ground level pvp in endgame there neither current time when you have much practical experience on ground level situation. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't know how to put these facts.

Dodge cap was reduced and that's still in effect in every field of pvp (Myth / honor) although proposal was bit different and that not to nerf mages to reduce dodges, dodge was meant to reduce from everywhere, proportionately accordingly classes accordingly classic PL. Imagine, if you don't mind stating some speculation fact about current pvp, I don't even expect a small amount of knowledge about these matter at that time.

I've disproved everything that you claim in the past yet you are still here not addressing them. Check my posts or any old thread regarding rhino and you'll see each and every one.

You don't remember how I did provide counter points against your each time exactly like this? the difference is that, you just don't properly answer mine, more accurately there's no counter point for you.

5) Exploiters like yourself who exploited 105 cap mage which was actually the most broken class to use? Like that? Exploiters that used hawkens mage which was unkillable unless you ran out the proc? Bow mage which you used to farm birds because they couldn't do anything against the lava proc? Staff mage which infinitely CCd your enemy? Those exploits you mean? Are we forgetting hawkens mage could 10-0 a hawkens rhino? That staff and bow mage could 10-0 a str rhino? Are those the exploits you mean? How many times were you on your bird in 105 cap? Like at best 15?

Just like child arguments, "hey you called a class exploiter, ok I'll call you exploiter". What is exploitation? I used mage, when it was never called OP by ground level pvpers, or calling exploitation that, A class TP behind from wall / tree each time, RJ but doesn't let other's RJ due to it's dashing and more. Seriously, fake accusations from you side. I never called you exploiter, I called em who used those classes that way, anway, I hardly care about such bogus accusations. Look at ur logic, I used bow mage and why that that was exploitation against bow bird, cause My bow was equiped with proc. What kinda logic is this, the bow of enemy bird didn't have proc. Even your logic is clueless.

6) I've seen you struggle to win vs mages with blind in use so I'm not giving that point any attention.

Strange I don't see you in endgame, yet watch me to fight so carefully.

7) So 80 cap is a set problem but 100-110 rhino isn't? Makes sense. Let's also not forget on top of dodge that mages were overly tanky, did far more damage than any other class, crit more often than even bird, and could use any attribute and dominate with it. That almost seems like that's what the class does regardless of level innit? They do the same thing in 15, 20, 22, 27, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 51, 56, 61, 66, 76, 105, and in the early days of 110.

Again the assumption of set issues, It's clear you don't read anything my argue over rhino, like ever?

What class dominated 77? We already went over 80. What class dominated 85? 105? Early 110 before damage changes?

8) Since this argument is on 110 honor. Hooks suggestion for rhino change isn't making them op. They still can't replace mages as a support even after the buff. They are better now in 1v1s then what they use to be. Rhinos are skilless? You've never even touched the class. Mages can still land a wack 300-400 crit on somebody in honor Arena when the health pool is only 500, albeit not as common as they do in twink honor it still finds a way to happen.

Finally a point about honor, there's a huge difference between posting long post and making the post logical. Anyway, Mages can't dash, mages can't enter in range suddenly, mages can't rejoin without forcing other's not to rejoin, Mages don't have that high team buff, mages can't do such high level tanking and so on.
You point is Rhino can't nuke like mage - Give it damage, Rhino can't tanlk like bear - make it more tanky, Rhino can't fast kill like bird - so give it more damage I mean if rhino can't do everything actually more than everthing - it's weak.

[MageFFA]

Really? So where's the counter point of this -(My very first post in this thread, that none had ansers "I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced."


Not listen? I've replied and provided valid points against yours, just like this one I'm replying each portion, maybe you just don't bother to listen, and when this class was nerfed? I can recall few buffs.


Where do you get this imaginary points dude? Do you really endgame pvp or just speculate? Someone saying mage OP in this cap, never heard of, the real ground level pvp makes you hear just all sort of odd statements but this odd? seriously, just to make you post long? In this whole thread it's you who bringing myth -rhino situation not me, in the past I've talked about several issues INCLUDING rhino, this thread it's you keep bringing that for nothing.


When The class was nerfed? I can recall several buffs. Again the if scenario, like if Rhino is TP-ing from different side of the map then ok propose to nerf it's damage? makes sense?

Yet that begs the question of whether or not 100 rhino was even broken in the first place.

As already said, if it's TP behind from the wall then nerf it's set, The exact you can't / deny the reality that once these things are curved, we actually could buff the class in a good way, the thing I told many times in the past.

Literally I don't know why I'm bothering to reply again and again who has zero clue what exactly happened, you just stating some assumptions here. clear assumptions, neither you were there doing ground level pvp in endgame there neither current time when you have much practical experience on ground level situation. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't know how to put these facts.

Dodge cap was reduced and that's still in effect in every field of pvp (Myth / honor) although proposal was bit different and that not to nerf mages to reduce dodges, dodge was meant to reduce from everywhere, proportionately accordingly classes accordingly classic PL. Imagine, if you don't mind stating some speculation fact about current pvp, I don't even expect a small amount of knowledge about these matter at that time.

You don't remember how I did provide counter points against your each time exactly like this? the difference is that, you just don't properly answer mine, more accurately there's no counter point for you.



Just like child arguments, "hey you called a class exploiter, ok I'll call you exploiter". What is exploitation? I used mage, when it was never called OP by ground level pvpers, or calling exploitation that, A class TP behind from wall / tree each time, RJ but doesn't let other's RJ due to it's dashing and more. Seriously, fake accusations from you side. I never called you exploiter, I called em who used those classes that way, anway, I hardly care about such bogus accusations. Look at ur logic, I used bow mage and why that that was exploitation against bow bird, cause My bow was equiped with proc. What kinda logic is this, the bow of enemy bird didn't have proc. Even your logic is clueless.

Strange I don't see you in endgame, yet watch me to fight so carefully.

Again the assumption of set issues, It's clear you don't read anything my argue over rhino, like ever?



Finally a point about honor, there's a huge difference between posting long post and making the post logical. Anyway, Mages can't dash, mages can't enter in range suddenly, mages can't rejoin without forcing other's not to rejoin, Mages don't have that high team buff, mages can't do such high level tanking and so on.
You point is Rhino can't nuke like mage - Give it damage, Rhino can't tanlk like bear - make it more tanky, Rhino can't fast kill like bird - so give it more damage I mean if rhino can't do everything actually more than everthing - it's weak.

Are you serious? Please show me a single patch that shows a buff towards rhino in the last couple years other than the one that happened recently because of this thread? 105 cap was a 15% damage reduction towards the skill Redemption, I would know because Jen got the class nerfed in rage after I knocked her out of the tourney. The class was previously nerfed in 100 cap also. All you'd need to do is search the forums to see them.

You have never made any counter points to my arguments so don't act as if you have. Let's talk about the argument that you're making now, regarding the bug on dashes/charge. This was never a point you made before so don't try to spin this too.

I've been playing rhino since it first launched. I've put the class on Leadersboard 3 times in zones where they couldn't compete, level 30 x2 and level 61. No one and I mean no one has the same knowledge of the class as me. Not once in my many many many years have I ever known or seen that the rhino teleportation bug can be used at a whim. My knowledge on the bug was always that it happened at random or when you're respawning/reviving while they are dashing. Not only have I've been complaining about this issue for as long as I can remember but I also brought this point up in a thread regarding rhino in 105, about what needs to change for the class.

You say people are practicing the teleportation glitch? I don't even know how to do it. I doubt hook does, or luis or Nae. All of us are OG LB rhino players. Never in my time playing this game have I seen nae or Luis use this glitch intentionally in 20. I've never seen visiting use it intentionally in 76. Never seen marinespride use it in 71. So who's practicing it? Let me know because I want to see it for myself.

Now if you're complaining about rhinos and foxes being able to dash behind trees/walls or dash/charge by targeting a enemy player then that's a different subjection, and quite honestly I don't think anyone truly cares that much. It's been part of their gameplay since the start. Foxes can be easily CCd by nearly every class and rhinos will just reset the fight. What's the difference between those 2 and a bear just simply beck stomping you a mile away to run buff? A mage landing frost to run until his ms is back? Every class can exploit something similar to what you're complaining about. Yet you single out the 2 dashes alone because you refuse to adapt it seems like. If a fox or rhino runs from me do you know what I'd do? I'll just back off and reset for the engagement again. If a bear beck stomped me away from him do you know what I'd do? Reset. If a bird repulsed me started running for his buffs and healing guess what. I'm not gonna chase. How hard is it to play with competence. This is PvP if you can't handle dirty tricks like that then just stop playing. If this was 15-19 you'd be complaining even harder towards mages since they do it also.

Even if we kept everything I said above as a convo then it's irrelevant. It's mythic PvP. Debuffs are meaningless and the damage output is beyond unreasonable. The way you'd normally fight against another class doesn't work here. It's either deal enough damage to 3 shot your enemy or die. Before you come here talking about fixing rhino how about we fix mythic first then see what the issues are afterwards.

Your last point is absurd. That measly team buff means nothing. Mage and bird have not lost a single 2v2 tourney yet. Mage bird and bear are still the best trio to use. Mage and rhino isn't even a comparison because even though rhino has 2 team buffs it still can't support as good as mage. The additional 34 damage means nothing if the enemy focuses down your carry leaving you without anyone to deal damage to utilize the buff in the first place.

Mages don't need a dash. They don't need a team buff, and neither do they need to tank. Mages have the highest amount of skill damage for a skill then any other class. From one of my tests Cam and I did we became aware that they have more base damage on L1 frost than a bear does with 6 stomp, without any items. Their drain is over 100 points more than the second strongest skill if we were only taking 1 skill from each class in game, that would leave foxes needles as second place under drain. Their critical chance is a little under birds, mind you archer is supposed to be the main critical class, but if you were to account the fact that mages have a damage buff then they will crit far more often and much much much harder. No other class in this game can hit past 350-400 critical on a single skill. The most I've ever seen a bird land is a little over 280 and that was with break and shatter.

The only reason mages aren't killing 110 honor like they do 30-40 is because 70% hit reduction skills exist and armor buffs are much stronger. Oh and I doubt you ever took the time to notice but rhino also has less base HP compared to mage. Even with the str points added to be able to use honor sets it'll still be closer to mages hp pool then bear.

[Waug]

Are you serious? Please show me a single patch that shows a buff towards rhino in the last couple years other than the one that happened recently because of this thread? 105 cap was a 15% damage reduction towards the skill Redemption, I would know because Jen got the class nerfed in rage after I knocked her out of the tourney. The class was previously nerfed in 100 cap also. All you'd need to do is search the forums to see them.

You have never made any counter points to my arguments so don't act as if you have. Let's talk about the argument that you're making now, regarding the bug on dashes/charge. This was never a point you made before so don't try to spin this too.

I've been playing rhino since it first launched. I've put the class on Leadersboard 3 times in zones where they couldn't compete, level 30 x2 and level 61. No one and I mean no one has the same knowledge of the class as me. Not once in my many many many years have I ever known or seen that the rhino teleportation bug can be used at a whim. My knowledge on the bug was always that it happened at random or when you're respawning/reviving while they are dashing. Not only have I've been complaining about this issue for as long as I can remember but I also brought this point up in a thread regarding rhino in 105, about what needs to change for the class.

You say people are practicing the teleportation glitch? I don't even know how to do it. I doubt hook does, or luis or Nae. All of us are OG LB rhino players. Never in my time playing this game have I seen nae or Luis use this glitch intentionally in 20. I've never seen visiting use it intentionally in 76. Never seen marinespride use it in 71. So who's practicing it? Let me know because I want to see it for myself.

Now if you're complaining about rhinos and foxes being able to dash behind trees/walls or dash/charge by targeting a enemy player then that's a different subjection, and quite honestly I don't think anyone truly cares that much. It's been part of their gameplay since the start. Foxes can be easily CCd by nearly every class and rhinos will just reset the fight. What's the difference between those 2 and a bear just simply beck stomping you a mile away to run buff? A mage landing frost to run until his ms is back? Every class can exploit something similar to what you're complaining about. Yet you single out the 2 dashes alone because you refuse to adapt it seems like. If a fox or rhino runs from me do you know what I'd do? I'll just back off and reset for the engagement again. If a bear beck stomped me away from him do you know what I'd do? Reset. If a bird repulsed me started running for his buffs and healing guess what. I'm not gonna chase. How hard is it to play with competence. This is PvP if you can't handle dirty tricks like that then just stop playing. If this was 15-19 you'd be complaining even harder towards mages since they do it also.

Even if we kept everything I said above as a convo then it's irrelevant. It's mythic PvP. Debuffs are meaningless and the damage output is beyond unreasonable. The way you'd normally fight against another class doesn't work here. It's either deal enough damage to 3 shot your enemy or die. Before you come here talking about fixing rhino how about we fix mythic first then see what the issues are afterwards.

Your last point is absurd. That measly team buff means nothing. Mage and bird have not lost a single 2v2 tourney yet. Mage bird and bear are still the best trio to use. Mage and rhino isn't even a comparison because even though rhino has 2 team buffs it still can't support as good as mage. The additional 34 damage means nothing if the enemy focuses down your carry leaving you without anyone to deal damage to utilize the buff in the first place.

Mages don't need a dash. They don't need a team buff, and neither do they need to tank. Mages have the highest amount of skill damage for a skill then any other class. From one of my tests Cam and I did we became aware that they have more base damage on L1 frost than a bear does with 6 stomp, without any items. Their drain is over 100 points more than the second strongest skill if we were only taking 1 skill from each class in game, that would leave foxes needles as second place under drain. Their critical chance is a little under birds, mind you archer is supposed to be the main critical class, but if you were to account the fact that mages have a damage buff then they will crit far more often and much much much harder. No other class in this game can hit past 350-400 critical on a single skill. The most I've ever seen a bird land is a little over 280 and that was with break and shatter.

The only reason mages aren't killing 110 honor like they do 30-40 is because 70% hit reduction skills exist and armor buffs are much stronger. Oh and I doubt you ever took the time to notice but rhino also has less base HP compared to mage. Even with the str points added to be able to use honor sets it'll still be closer to mages hp pool then bear.

I didn't make a counter point - You, this shows how ignorant you are to read my points, that also proves how worthless it is to discuss, cause you've no intention to do valid discussion rather some kinda "rage post"?
You don't see these classes wall tp, this alone question your modesty or your experience in endgame, which is correct? if regular rhinos doing it, then how how so called "LB" rhinos don't have any clue. Again if smething doesn't even exist, what is your problem it being fixed? whats the catch here?

The OP demand here rhino buff based on honor, their whole point and whole supporting points from all the supporters here. Rhino can't run until opponents buff is over? and then attack when buff is over? how powerful buff is in honor, it's just a kill without zero defense, literally zero defense for some classes. So called LB rhino doesn't know these, do you have smallest amount of courage to accept these things? also add rejoin factor that extremely common in honor in Ground level pvp not in hypothetical and arranged "friendly" pvp.

This rhino buff is unjustified instead of going through valid points that just showed how forum isn't a place for logical discussion anymore, this is one way game now, that I already stated.
You can deny and try your level best to hide the exploitative part of rhino and these classes and try to boost the other part as much as possible, rather modest approach would be to accept everything and act accordingly.