Time has come, Need to re-balance

[Waug]

You got a lot of things wrong in this single sentence...

First of all, hit% is not above 100 for every class in mid to endgame. Many Strbears and Pallies are well below. Other Str- or Intbuilds are just above 100 and it's stll important when birds and mages can debuff 35 and bears 60+ hit%. The only class that is really saturated are pure birds (with 160+%).
And what are you even referring to by "mid to endgame"?? up to lv65 classes are pretty balanced IMO (I have multiple toons of diffrent classes for every twinking bracket from lv50 upwards). So I'm gonna talk about 65+ mainly.
Also,
And pure birds with a bow still have the highest damage output of any class at almost any level. They also have roots debuffing 70(!!!) dodge altogether so they tend to get dodged less if they have a good combo.
The only place where hit has actually become somewhat of a problem is on int mages (140+ I think) who can still kill birds and other mages with a fire+auto(or any dmg skill) even after being debuffed. For str it's just above 100% which is the way it should be IMO.

sorry to say, you distorted few points.

It's obvious that, anyone could have less than 100 hit% thats not the point, he will get dodged like hell and specially after hit debuff that's what it meant to be.

If extra hit % is only for a purpose if get debuffed, then good luck with 100+ extra fake hit % pure birds carries or will carry in upcoming caps. Its like you have a high power weapon, but you cant use it you can only use it only when you existing low power weapon will be useless for few moments. Not for birds for any decent non Str class, said before but got distorted so put "decent non str" before

now here's a point, you contradicted yourself, first off you said, birds deliver highest dmg, then said mages are killing with just fire+auto or something, well done. Let me clear my points again, I said, including the part where birds should get less dodge due to their high hit, consider a situation where a low level dex and a low level int/mixed/str attacking two different but same stats dodgy oppenets, also assume that their overall damage is same but due to the fact that, the opponent is dodging less against the dex, the dex should deliver much more damage overall, That is what I meant, but the same thing happens after all get hit capped, the scenario will be totally different.

how are the dodges a consequence of having hit% above 100?? The dodging is a consequence of the ridiculously high dodge itself

well by saying this, you're clearly indicating that there's no relation between dodge and hit %. My everything said above depends on There's a certain relation, equation of dodge and opponent's hit% where any other variable, constant number or any other random number may be included anyhow, in which equation, dodge is being calculated.

[WarTornBird]

I don't feel like sts cares about the PvP side as much as PvE. PvP doesn't bring in near the revenue that PvE does.
It sucks to say, I'd be very suprised if this was even a though put through the head. If anyone, Techno.

No offense but I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. Studies have shown that the gamers that spend the most and do the most to support the game are the active pvpers.

I suppose it's true that because there are so many more pve players than pvp, it's possible that the overall revenue generated from Pve could surpass that of pvp. However, sts' goal should not be to ignore pvp. Their goal will be to convert as many pve players to pvp players as they can. That way, according to the statistics, they will be making even more money.

Personally, I think sts is waiting to see if PL will stay popular as they release new titles. If it doesn't, then there is no need for them to waste time and money improving a game. If it does, and they still see good chance to make good money, then I am 100% positive that PL pvp WILL get balanced again.

I'm not so sure, though, that PL is popular enough to mess with.

You failed to see my stand point. Ely seen it they spend all the money and plat working to level in the new dungeons. Yes most players who spend uber plat are pvpers. But I can almost be sure that someone who PvE's is going to spend a whole lot plat than someone who levels to cap and straight PvPs. Idk I could be wrong. But you could have said it in a different way. Not you have no clue what your talking about.

[Gaunab]

sorry to say, you distorted few points.

It's obvious that, anyone could have less than 100 hit% thats not the point, he will get dodged like hell and specially after hit debuff that's what it meant to be.

If extra hit % is only for a purpose if get debuffed, then good luck with 100+ extra fake hit % pure birds carries or will carry in upcoming caps. Its like you have a high power weapon, but you cant use it you can only use it only when you existing low power weapon will be useless for few moments. Not for birds for any decent non Str class, said before but got distorted so put "decent non str" before

now here's a point, you contradicted yourself, first off you said, birds deliver highest dmg, then said mages are killing with just fire+auto or something, well done. Let me clear my points again, I said, including the part where birds should get less dodge due to their high hit, consider a situation where a low level dex and a low level int/mixed/str attacking two different but same stats dodgy oppenets, also assume that their overall damage is same but due to the fact that, the opponent is dodging less against the dex, the dex should deliver much more damage overall, That is what I meant, but the same thing happens after all get hit capped, the scenario will be totally different.


well by saying this, you're clearly indicating that there's no relation between dodge and hit %. My everything said above depends on There's a certain relation, equation of dodge and opponent's hit% where any other variable, constant number or any other random number may be included anyhow, in which equation, dodge is being calculated.

Just to get that straight: You are making a suggestion on how to rebalance "mid to endgame PvP" (still got no clue which levels u are talking about). You think it would be good if a high hit percentage would make you to get dodged less often. I get it. But I don't think that is what PvP really needs.

I didn't contradict myself, eventho bowbirds are very squishy (dying within 2 crits just like unshielded intmages) they still do the most damage. If they land their roots they can easily kill str chars in one combo, even groups of them with thornwall and cruel blast. They should not get an additional advantage from having a high hit percentage. They don't need that.

Dodge should be lowered for every class, strclasses as well as birds have too much dodge IMO. Dodging takes no skill. They should dodge less against everyone, not just against classes with high hit%. Alongside with that either the damage needs to be reduced or the armor/health pool needs to get bumped up, so the fight won't be over after two skills and combos would finally make sense again. Those are stats that are not luck dependent.

Being skilled should pay off again, not being lucky.

[Elyseon]

Dodge should be lowered for every class, strclasses as well as birds have too much dodge IMO. Dodging takes no skill. They should dodge less against everyone, not just against classes with high hit%. Alongside with that either the damage needs to be reduced or the armor/health pool needs to get bumped up, so the fight won't be over after two skills and combos would finally make sense again. Those are stats that are not luck dependent.

Being skilled should pay off again, not being lucky.

This
IMO dodge should cap at around 1/3
(33%)
Idk y STS can't see this the crafted sets of the most balanced cap added no dodge except for minimal amounts as part of a set bonus
Now they just load it on
I guess it is nice for pve
But it's kinda ridiculous dodging full nukes from mages as a dex bear
100% luck lol

[Waug]

You think it would be good if a high hit percentage would make you to get dodged less often. I get it. But I don't think that is what PvP really needs.... They should not get an additional advantage from having a high hit percentage. They don't need that.

To be very honest, you totally missed the point what I tried to say in this whole thread and each and every post, perhaps my fault I could not elaborate or you didn't read properly. Let me try again :

I'm not talking about any additional advantage or demanding something that should be implemented in pvp rather I'm saying more like what STS forgetting/ignoring to do something, that they must have to do as level cap approaches. As you also said, and nearly everyone would agree with this point that dodge has ruined the endgame pvp, I'm not saying anything different from it, rather I just pointed out the reason that why dodge got overpowered, and the reason is, dodge got overpowered cause 'dodge killer (hit %)' got saturated/capped/stucked at 100 so as new level caps comes dodge get increased as dodge killer also increased but without it's own effect, the work of killing dodges, simply the consequence is dodge is getting op and op-er as level cap approaches so sts must have to do something sooner or latter. That's all.

[GELLIO77]

My opinion, every level you go up you should gain, i dunnoo say 10 or 15 health and mana. and the 5 stats you get from lvling should be an extra on top of that

[Chopper]

My opinion, every level you go up you should gain, i dunnoo say 10 or 15 health and mana. and the 5 stats you get from lvling should be an extra on top of that

exactly. Basic primary stats. This will let players actually live longer and enjoy the game and PvP more. By doing so, luck will have less of an effect too.

[FluffNStuff]

My opinion, every level you go up you should gain, i dunnoo say 10 or 15 health and mana. and the 5 stats you get from lvling should be an extra on top of that

Gotta agree with this. Was looking at a Techno Post and the most armor can block is around 75%. Found the mobs in BSM are doing ~400, because no matter how much armor I wear * 3X, I can't get the damage below 85 points. Doesn't seem like a lot, but when you only have 500 health, mobs having a minimum damage of 85 (which can and does crit) adds up pretty quick when there are a bunch of em. Armor is useless, so only defenses are dodge, more health and killing faster.

[Waug]

Ah.

[Rot]

70%+ Dodge is a bit too high, to be honest. I'm talking about PvP.
But, there's no fun being unable to dodge, stuck in a Mace/Sword and getting kited by pure Dex birds. Once birds buff their Dodge, it's quite hard to pull them with Beckon. When Str bears don't dodge, they'll just get stuck in the bird's double root the whole match without hurting the bird the slightest bit. Is this fair? In my opinion, no.
Pure Dex birds can hit 200+ easily when they buff their Crit. If bears don't dodge, they'll be KO-ed in five or six hits at most. Repulse shot to kite their Beckon or Hellscream, double Root, Blind, Blast, poof, bear dead. I know it benefits you if the bears' Dodge is nerfed, but it doesn't sound right to me.
There's another way of solving this problem. Lower the Dodge, higher the Hp regen/armor. But I'm pretty sure once the Hp regen/Armor were raised, people will start making threads, complaining.

[Techno Email]

I appreciate you guys sharing your feedback on end-game balance. I am reading your feedback, and I hope you guys saw my posts about updates to balance tuning, and the process that must be taken to improve balance.

All of the feedback you guys posted here is super helpful. I mentioned in one of my posts that the process of improving balance involves making small changes, then reacting to your feedback on those changes, and making another small change. The best analogy for this reasoning is target practice: I have a target - let's say it's an apple. I shoot for the target, I miss, then I shoot again at the same target, and hopefully I hit the apple or at least get a little closer.

In reality my target was not an apple, it was to improve the efficacy of the Underworld Dex gear. So, I redid the point allocation for the crafted Underworld Dex set. It still wasn't cool, so I changed it again. http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...pdate-(109068) In order for my process to be effective, I'm need to have to stay focused and ask, "Did that help?" If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did it hurt?" If no, it also stays.

After the Dex gear change, I decided to address another facet of the problem you guys are discussing here which affects the largest portion of our player base (how democratic of me). Everyone plays PVE, and the Enchantress and Archer fall down too much in PVE! To address this I lowered the health and mana regen debuffs, and elite NPC damage output in PVE (part of that same update). Again, trying to stay focused I have to ask, did that help? If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did that help?" If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did it hurt?" If no, it also stays.

Obviously the latter change doesn't affect PVP. So what next? Well, using my target practice example, how would the process of balance change if the target itself changed? Say, instead of shooting at an apple, maybe now I'm shooting at a pineapple, balanced on top of an apple... Are you wondering what the heck I'm talking about? If so, check out SamHayne's latest post about the forum insiders section. You have to be logged and a registered forum member to see and use this section.

Needless to say, Winterfest is coming, and change is in the wind. Check out the forum insider stuff, and as always, keep the feedback coming. I am listening and reading, and PVP is important to us. In fact, we rely on your feedback for PVP, because what we see when we test internally is very different once we make it Live and you guys get your hands on it.

[FluffNStuff]

In reality my target was not an apple, it was to improve the efficacy of the Underworld Dex gear. So, I redid the point allocation for the crafted Underworld Dex set. It still wasn't cool, so I changed it again. http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...pdate-(109068) In order for my process to be effective, I'm need to have to stay focused and ask, "Did that help?" If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did it hurt?" If no, it also stays.

After the Dex gear change, I decided to address another facet of the problem you guys are discussing here which affects the largest portion of our player base (how democratic of me). Everyone plays PVE, and the Enchantress and Archer fall down too much in PVE! To address this I lowered the health and mana regen debuffs, and elite NPC damage output in PVE (part of that same update). Again, trying to stay focused I have to ask, did that help? If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did that help?" If yes, it stays. If no, I ask, "Did it hurt?" If no, it also stays.

Thanks for the update!
For the dex changes, I am gonna go ahead an say it is in the noise. Those stats are quite high so a shuffle that small really doesn't change the way the arrow is flying The lowered damage on enemies helps some, but what birdies really need is either some dodge, or a raise to the 75% armor cap. I started paying attention to that number and realized that mobs can crit on top of it, meaning in reality we can be taking 50% damage no matter what the armor, and that number is getting really high. With only 500 health, that forced damage is taking its toll quick, and without some dodge to give a chance to chug some pots we are sitting ducks, not flying eagles

[Techno Email]

Thanks for the update!
For the dex changes, I am gonna go ahead an say it is in the noise. Those stats are quite high so a shuffle that small really doesn't change the way the arrow is flying The lowered damage on enemies helps some, but what birdies really need is either some dodge, or a raise to the 75% armor cap. I started paying attention to that number and realized that mobs can crit on top of it, meaning in reality we can be taking 50% damage no matter what the armor, and that number is getting really high. With only 500 health, that forced damage is taking its toll quick, and without some dodge to give a chance to chug some pots we are sitting ducks, not flying eagles

I think I'll be moving some of the armor over into health, increasing dodge, and (slightly) increasing health regen on the crafted and uncrafted legendary enchantress and archer Underworld tanking itemset bonuses.

Wow - that's a mouthful, but you guys know what I mean.

[azefekie]

I made a thread about this already, only problem is one set is taking over all sets (str) making the game boring. can't go in one PvP room without seeing some new player in OP str gear, even the older players are using str now. Most don't want to be pally (str mage) but pure int is useless against all the dodge if you can't land a hit. Bears need to keep their dodge, they can't stand back and hit you like a mage and bird they have to be close to you to fight.

[azefekie]

problem is if you keep adding dodge to birds its all good for PVE but they take that dodge back to pvp and can't be hit they dont need more dodge.

Thanks for the update!
For the dex changes, I am gonna go ahead an say it is in the noise. Those stats are quite high so a shuffle that small really doesn't change the way the arrow is flying The lowered damage on enemies helps some, but what birdies really need is either some dodge, or a raise to the 75% armor cap. I started paying attention to that number and realized that mobs can crit on top of it, meaning in reality we can be taking 50% damage no matter what the armor, and that number is getting really high. With only 500 health, that forced damage is taking its toll quick, and without some dodge to give a chance to chug some pots we are sitting ducks, not flying eagles

[FluffNStuff]

problem is if you keep adding dodge to birds its all good for PVE but they take that dodge back to pvp and can't be hit they dont need more dodge.

So instead of birds getting some dodge on their own gear, you would prefer this:

I made a thread about this already, only problem is one set is taking over all sets (str) making the game boring. can't go in one PvP room without seeing some new player in OP str gear, even the older players are using str now. Most don't want to be pally (str mage) but pure int is useless against all the dodge if you can't land a hit. Bears need to keep their dodge, they can't stand back and hit you like a mage and bird they have to be close to you to fight.

[razerfingers]

I figured since bows have a clear disadvantage in PvP and talons are the better option. I figure lets help the bow out!!! My idea is to keep the all the stats the same but increase the bows range to 12m (skill range) and farther out! I mean it would make the bow a more pleasing option and maybe calm a few of the birds (including me) that just hate how amazingly powerful that str set is... By giving the bow birds a better chance to compete with the amazing talons.

My 2 cents about birds and dex.

theres no disadvantage with bows in pvp i can drop a full dex talon user by kiting. repulse run comeback root blast they dead :P and i have l73 flying hel angelic armor and l75 flying bow. i have fun but talon bird if they're good they two shot me with skills lol getting 400+ crit in one shot

[azefekie]

Nope i didn't explain everything here, like i said i already made a thread a while back for this. it had more explanations from people and thoughts, and yes i believe birds don't need more dodge just some hp and armor. what's with you players that want a dodge based game? to show no skill? just sit back dodge and kill...sounds like an exciting game to me (sarcasm). this is one reason AL has become so popular, class specific gear, not one set taking over.

So instead of birds getting some dodge on their own gear, you would prefer this:

[Waug]

Nope i didn't explain everything here, like i said i already made a thread a while back for this. it had more explanations from people and thoughts

If you've noticed, the topic is entirely different, though, they somehow coincides at a point, endgame pvp balance.

[azefekie]

*claps*

If you've noticed, the topic is entirely different, though, they somehow coincides at a point, endgame pvp balance.