I respecced last night. Took out smash and put in windmill. I want smash back, I think. Smash is more spammable and it doesn't shut down all other skills for a couple seconds. Like if I'm at boss and need to interrupt with chest splitter but I can't due to windmill shutting down other skills. With smash I can tap smash (and get a chance at stun) then chest splitter immediately. Not so with windmill. Once you windmill you can't do anything else for a moment.
This is totally wrong. It's why there are so many fail tanks atm.Originally Posted by Kenoon
Windmill is not a tanking skill. There is no upgrade that even helps tanking. If you want a REAL tanking skill choose Chest Splitter. It's a aoe attack also that slashes mobs in front of you. It hits more targets than windmill. It taunts which is a plus, increased crit another plus and last but not least the attack damage is better. Oh and not to mention the fast cooldown.
i agree with zero. CS is an initial skill that every warrior should hav as it pulls aggro every 3sec nd useful at bosses greatly.
I used to think the same as you but my explanations why windmill is better for tanking was due to the accumulative threat, proc hit stacking damage and mana consistency.
And due to CS high threat output, some clown warriors went all out to spam their skills with staggering blow sub tree skill added, does not stand together with tank warriors position and caused the boss windup's arc of fire to keep switching directions causing the deaths of rogue & mages.
If DPS warriors knows about how Chest Splitter works, all the more they should stand together with the tank warriors. Why dafug they wanna run away from boss windups when they added staggering blow to their subtree which is a 100% counter skill and they won't even be taking any damage.
IF they wanna play dodgeball style like rogue class, they shouldn't even add staggering blow in the first place!
Oh yes, as tanking warrior, they should be using trollbane instead of Vorpal blades since Windmill with duration increased subtree added will proc 4 hits & thus increases the chance to proc fire DOT (dmg over time) onto the boss or creeps. 4 hits WM with 10 seconds cooldown vs 2 X SS in 8 seconds. Or do you want to count it by 8 hits WM in 20 secs vs 5 hits SS in 20 secs?
I owned lv15 agile vorpal, lv16 agile vorpal, lv16 mighty vorpal and lv16 trollbane.
Although trollbanes proc is 10% compared to vorpal's unstated % (assume it 100%), but from my usage, i observed the proccing to be very much effective with windmill and with stacked vengeful blood & pet, i saw a 285 crit dmg while using it.
Threat output & fire effect proccing on boss tanking, so which skill would be more effective?
I was busy to reply the same answer to all similar threads so i hope this answers to your doubt.
So this is totally wrong?
Are you even a tank by the way? lol
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...h-explanations
Last edited by Kenoon; 12-12-2012 at 12:10 AM.
OneAxeHole @ MapleSEA.
Guild Master of Singaporeans.
Kenoon - Lv21 Tank Warrior.
Hiddenleaf - Lv15 Pure Dex Ranger
To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience.
As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.
I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to immediately turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration which target is focused on user, or how much dmg another player(s) has dealt to target beforehand.
Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.
By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial threat'
Player A goes in, agroes boss and does not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.
Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), axe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill just used is a taunt, as player B clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.
Conclusion: It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation. Hence it should not be labeled as a 'taunt', but a skill with 'threat modifier'.
Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks!
Last edited by Crystalite; 12-12-2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Typo
well i would like to verify u that WM although initial hit is upto 3mobs per whirl bt it hits mobs alternately.Hehe thx. =P
But oooh, the idea that WM can hit all mobs (or more than 3) while moving is a misconception. The way to verify this is by entering tombs solo (try tombs 2 if no party. Less peeps farming) and luring as many mobs as possible into an alcove. When you use WM and start moving around, you will see that it doesnt hit all mobs, but still only 3 per proc, for a total of 4 procs x 3 mobs per proc.
There are 2 methods for verifying this:
1) This is seen via the hp bars of mobs you hit. Very few hp bars seen, meaning you hit only so many targets each. Likewise, this applies to say a mage's fireball. Even though the description says fireball can bit all targets near you, this is in fact not the case. Again, once you test it out yourself, you will know what I mean.
2) A second method of double-checking this is that once you know how much dmg your WM(or any skill in question) does per hit on a mob, as you clear the entire group of mobs, you realize there are many mobs that remain undamaged by yout previous casts of WM, as they are all at full hp. E.g. If your WM or fireball had been able to damage ALL mobs, you will only need another hit to finish them off. But you can see they are at full hp.
The same goes for skyward smash. Contrary to what most people may think, even if you stack 10-20 mobs as close as possible, it appears you can only hit a few of them each time, roughly 4-5.
Conclusion: Damage calculation for SM can only hit a few mobs (maybe around 5 or thereabouts) even if you stack them closely. WM can only hit 3 targets, just like what skill description says, regardless of whether you are standing still or moving. In fact, I believe there is a maximum target limitation for any skill (e.g. Fireball included) in the game, despite what skill description may say.
Can anyone verify this for a fact? Thanks
For e.g :- Lets assume 6mobs (A, B, C, D ,E ,F) nd a player X.
6mobs surrounds X nd X casts WM.
So nw for d 1st whirl it hits 3mobs A B nd C.
again wen it whirls for 2nd time it hits nw another mobs D E nd F. so again in 3rd whirl it will hit any 3 from A B C D E nd F.
So X can hit all 6 mobs from stationary position (2whirls) . Same concept regarding 6+ mobs (12around).
So nw lets assume X is in middle of large groups of mobs in hauntlet. nd he cast WM h moves around d large mobs. So it is obvious that it will hit almost all enemy in d group. nd So its nt a MISCONCEPTION. it may nt hit all. bt it hits nearly 12-14 enemies. (nt killing m talking about hitting). So i can conclude det with one WM cast one can kill faster then 2-3 SM cast. WM per whirl hits 106 to 3mobs nd it whirls for 8times. bt although SM hit 120 bt it hit once. So i prefer WM. nd so WM is a DPS skill
What you said is very true.To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience. Build your toon the way you want to play, so long as you are prepared to live with whatever consequences is what I believe in.
As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.
I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration.
Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.
By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial agro'
Player A agroes boss anddoes not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.
Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), axe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill used is a taunt, as player clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.
It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation.
Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks!
I had went juggernaut, hor, windmill and vengeful blood yesterday.
My friend used chest splitter, windmill, hor, vengeful blood. (which is my current setup)
I totally lose out in taunting just because of chest splitter with staggering blow even though i used windmill + hor + charged vengeful blood + ribbit active skill + juggernaut (which some claims 4 times the taunt effect of HOR LOL. I hereby confirm its false -.-)
After a series of test, the threat output with CS is extremely high but it isn't a taunt skill.
There were several runs i done with korean players.
Both of us were heavily taunting against one another to see who's the ultimate tanker.
Eventually the winner goes to the one who last used a taunt skill or accumulated taunt counters to be so great that further taunts are render useless.
There is one particular guildless warrior who caught my attention.
His damage on screen is 99.9. He basically spams all dps skills on Jarl and my taunting skills were beaten by him handsdown.
Last edited by Kenoon; 12-12-2012 at 12:38 AM.
OneAxeHole @ MapleSEA.
Guild Master of Singaporeans.
Kenoon - Lv21 Tank Warrior.
Hiddenleaf - Lv15 Pure Dex Ranger
well although it doesnt taunt like HoR or jug or axe bt it atleast pulls aggro nd also it shows "!" above enemy head. CS also has very short CD. whereas other 3has long CD. so CS is initial taunt that every war should hav to maintain threat aggro.To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience. Build your toon the way you want to play, so long as you are prepared to live with whatever consequences is what I believe in.
As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.
I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration.
Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.
By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial agro'
Player A agroes boss anddoes not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.
Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), a ixe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill used is a taunt, as player clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.
It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation.
Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks!
u can basically pull aggro if u hav almost around 100 base dmg
Ooh ok, perhaps it is a matter of choice of words that caused confusion. So long as we agree that windmill per cast has 4 procs, each proc can hit up to 3 targets I am good.
For skyward smash however, it apparently can hit up to 5 targets each time. So for aoe purposes, based on my calculations, it appears that over time(e.g. In a 20sec interval) SM can cause a total of more dmg, given there are enough targets around. Refer to earlier calculations for details. Let me know what you think.
But I admit that is purely based on calculations. Whether there are enough mobs around to last 20sec, or if they are stacked nicely together, is another matter. Ultimately the choice is left to the individual and what feels 'most fun' to the player. The calculations is just a guide.
Last edited by Crystalite; 12-12-2012 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Additional notes
All I know is this:
With 90 DPS (105dps with vengeful), using HoR, SS, and CS, I pull aggro 100% of the time unless I'm running with one of the top10 rogues. I can't hold aggro with them, but nobody can.. haha.
Yeah totally agree. Chest splitter is a must have skill. =D
Drools at you uber tanks with 90DPSand above... Me gotta work harder. Rawr! T_T
lol i hav 72 bse dmg bt 205% bonus dmg nd yet i get aggro coz i hav CS nd HoR lol
CS + HOR + AT > 100 dps
OneAxeHole @ MapleSEA.
Guild Master of Singaporeans.
Kenoon - Lv21 Tank Warrior.
Hiddenleaf - Lv15 Pure Dex Ranger
Btw rogue weapons are bugged. Lifethief series.
Basically they normal attack hits around 200+ per hit.
They just need to hit Jarl few hits and you will lose aggro against them no matter what unless they die lol.
OneAxeHole @ MapleSEA.
Guild Master of Singaporeans.
Kenoon - Lv21 Tank Warrior.
Hiddenleaf - Lv15 Pure Dex Ranger
lol i hope d bows that will get after update wont pull aggro
Lol mage with rifle looks cute
OneAxeHole @ MapleSEA.
Guild Master of Singaporeans.
Kenoon - Lv21 Tank Warrior.
Hiddenleaf - Lv15 Pure Dex Ranger
Last night we let a tank try to hold aggro on elite stabb using Skyward Smash, windmill, vengeful blood and horn of renew. Bad news he couldn't hold aggro with 2 rogues. I quickly got aggro and party went smooth. I'm running Chest Splitter, Axe throw, Vengeful Blood and Juggernaut. I'm fully geared with 96 damage. I can hold aggro with any top rogue (Amaterasu) will verify.
Horn of Renew is not needed either. Juggernaut and Vengeful Blood will heal you not to mention they increased str and crit and boost too damage vengeful does. Then juggernaut will heal you, taunts buffs HP and ignores 20% of damage. So in closing Juggernaut and Vengeful Blood are the most important warrior skills.
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