End-game balance

[Techno Email]

Please check out my post here for more info. on my take on balancing PL classes:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...l=1#post882120

TLDR: Balance is an ongoing process for MMOs.

Here's what changes have happened since the above post:
1. Two new classes.
2. Small damage reduction to some weapons throughout the game.
3. Damage increased on Archer's end-game crafted bow.

Stop the record... (Refer to the above link for more info. on the process I step through next.)

1. These changes have had some time to bake.

2. Here's my observation:
- Archer's do very high damage with full end-game gear.
- Rhinos feel less powerful than old classes in end-game PVP.
- DANG we deal a lot of damage in the end-game.

3. Here's my evaluation:

Archer's do very high damage with full end-game gear
I think this is due to the combination of the itemset bonus changes and the crafted end-game bow damage changes. Before these changes were made people were unhappy with the Archer PVE experience. I felt the end-game PVE experience was too difficult for Enchantresses and Archers, so I made the changes mentioned above. I think it's better now. Please read the post linked above for my take on balancing end-game PVE and PVP. I understand that the change has also made Archer's uber powerful in PVP. I also think that Enchantresses are uber powerful in PVP, and so are Warriors. I agree that being one-hit sucks, and I'll speak more to that.

Rhinos feel less powerful than old classes in end-game PVP
Valiant rings can make or break a fight. The new classes can not achieve this bonus until they obtain two elite level cap items. End game characters who do not have any valiant rings, don't have this bonus. [The End.] New classes can't get valiant rings yet, but they can get elite level cap items to help build their path to victory!! Is reaching the elite level cap not your jam? No worries!! Our internal tests showed the Rhino to be pretty survivable in end-game PVE content, so farm away my single-horned animal friends!

DANG we deal a lot of damage in the end-game
Being one-hit sucks.

4. Here are the actions I'd like to take:
- I'd like to increase the defensive stats on the legendary gear sets in the next expansion, and see how it plays out in both PVE and PVP gameplay.
- If you have a Rhino or Fox and you wish you had a valiant ring, I'd suggest working towards the elite level cap.

If this list of actions seems short, please refer to the above link for more info. on why.

[Noodleleg]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are underpowered naturally... Etc....

[Jcyee]

hmm... not sure what to think about this but thanks for responding to some of our feedback

[Nihiliste]

Right now...

I think you should focus on The mages, bears, and birds and then move on to the rhino's and foxes. I don't think it was even a good idea to bring two new classes with the amount of imbalancement end-game PvP has. So, what you should do, I think ALL SKILL LEVELS should be reduced BACK to level 6. Having skill levels at 9 is ridiculous and was a bad move in the first place. Bears now can hold 95+ dodge, and their skill damage is very high. Like I said, skill levels NEED to go back to 6, permanantly to prevent other riots/imbalancement. Int mages are ultra squishy now. They don't stand a chance vs. an overpowered bear and ofcourse the overpowered bird. Also, what happened to staff mages? They are suppose to be more dominant than wand mages. Now birds...where do I start. Birds now can one shot any class they wish with their what, 547 blast? Something like that? They dodged nearly EVERY SKILL with their ridiculous dodge. I sometimes have to use my skills TWICE, just to kill one bird. Instead of increasing their damage...how about increasing their HP some more and reducing what is actually needed to be reduced?


-My feedback.

Edit: You should also look at Reun's post in Rushorgtfo's thread called "Need a developers input".

[Shilooo]

Enchantresses are über powerfull in end game pvp? 9/10 are pallys! This is because it takes two shots from a bird to be killed, or one beckon stomp combo to run your mana dry from a bear. Just my two cents. Thanks for working on it tho!

[Nihiliste]

Left that out. Mages are uber weak* in PvP, like Shil said, the majority of end-game mages are SADLY pallies.

[Azataso]

Oh gosh...the amount of smileys are overwhelming.

[TEOKILLO]

1. Increase defence
2. Increase health
3. Reduce dodge (for str)
4. Lower skills to rank 7
5. Lower scythe damage
6. Everyone's happy

[AbsolutePally]

Increase health in pvp. 5HP per every 5 levels could go a long way. Or maybe mages get 4 mana 1 HP per every 5 lvls, bears 5 HP, birds 4 HP 1 mana.
simple solution is grant more HP to all classes when in the arena. So pve isn't affected bh reductions/increases to other stats.

Dmg is too crazy we are getting killed 3x over! Mages do 600+ drain dmg 500 fire 400 light. Birds dodge a lot at times, so skill ( being faster w better range is hardly a factor. I'm seeing me get 3/4 shots off but dying to their 2 because they simply dodged 2 and I didn't.

[Deathofan]

Can you implement something like arcane. Each attribute gives health pool, it kinda goes like this str:10hp int:5hp dex:3hp but it could be implemented by a little bit less and gradually increase armor and return skill level to 7.

[Otukura]

take notes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11f_3wDV0R8


gw2 really did pvp right

[Otukura]

Increase health in pvp. 5HP per every 5 levels could go a long way. Or maybe mages get 4 mana 1 HP per every 5 lvls, bears 5 HP, birds 4 HP 1 mana.
simple solution is grant more HP to all classes when in the arena. So pve isn't affected bh reductions/increases to other stats.

there is a valid point here, the difference in total hp from level 1 to cap is really pretty small.

[XghostzX]

Hey Techno -

I've been part of PvP since day 1, and I'm very familiar with stats (as well as SEVERAL other players. I'd love to come up with a list of players that would love to help out that are also experienced and familiar with many PvP levels).

I highly recommend that you try to find a bunch of players to gather up and discuss stats. Your dedication and responses to the community mean a lot to us, but as Noodleleg mentioned above, if a class is significantly underpowered, rings will not be the solution to the problem. We need to stop avoiding the prime issue with balancing classes and items by simply adding stats, because in reality (or I guess you can say 'virtually'), the legitimate act of balancing stats is what makes the difference.

I just think that this is the most reasonable solution... I mean after all, we're the ones playing your game all the time, in it's real action! (Not just testing).

[MightyMicah]

I'm not sure how everything will turn out, but I tell you, Techno Email, I just fell in love with you. You've gotta be the nicest dev there is with all those emotes in your post! Hahaha I am sincerely glad to see that you have identified the problem and are working toward solving it. That's a step in the right direction for sure!

[Yich]

take notes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11f_3wDV0R8


gw2 really did pvp right

Been wanting this for awhile... Want it more now...

[Otukura]

Been wanting this for awhile... Want it more now...

the video i linked is lowskill actually

didn't watch it until after i posted, just copied the link off the gw2 forums

[McBain]

Regarding point #1 about archers' high damage...that's the way it's supposed to be IMO. The whole modus operandi of being a bird is that you sacrifice some survivability to be a damage dealing machine. If archers didn't deal very high amounts of damage, there wouldn't be any reciprocity. It's a poetic balance: the most dangerous class is also the squishiest. So, in short, bumping the damage on birds' endgame gear is change I agree with.

Regarding PvP stuff....well I don't do PvP, so obviously this is no expert opinion, but common sense tells me that balancing PvP is probably close to impossible when you have valiant rings, dragon rings, and whatnot thrown into the mix. You said it yourself: a ring can make or break a fight. The question is: do you want PvP to be about rings? Or do you want it to be about strategy and skill? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you want it to be about skill. That being the case, a suggestion I would make is that rings in general should be made inactive in PvP arenas.

[AbsolutePally]

I'm happy that sts is recognizing pvp is an important part of their fanbase/revenue. We are small but we spend a lot of money, I don't know any serious pvper that hasn't spent over 200 dollars in an app. We cap first since 50? The kist of ppl who capped for the egg includes a majority or pvpers. That cost $, I know i capped two that weekend.
I've been playing on my bird again and I'm having fun again. Just so much dodge at times.

Two simple solutions coukd be class specific gear in pvp (so a pvp arena loadout would work great)
Or increase health mana per char every 5 levels or cap. More str more int more dex attribute points only increase damage at a rate the HP can't keep up with. Or maybe int dex also increase HP too, not JUST str points. Or int not just mana. We just can't survive 600+ drains.

More health.

Also get rid of "absorbed".!!! It's op. No other class can negate an entire combo like that, no skill required. When I perform my cruel.blast it says "absorbed" and it's like nothing happened. And bird goes bye bye.

[Flawless]

I couldn't agree less on the absorb part.

[Fusionstrike]

A lot of people are focusing on PvP, which makes sense because that's the place to most clearly see the difference between classes: when they fight each other. However, I'd like to put in a reminder that PvE needs some attention as well. The rhino is woefully underpowered in damage. I have a capped rhino who is struggling to keep up with a 50ish mage or bird when going back to pick up some AO quests I skipped. It's not the lack of an elite ring that's causing the problem. The class is truly and severely underpowered.

Another part of rhino that needs some serious consideration is the party buffs. The whole point of a paladin class is to support and enhance the party, right? Well you had this great idea to have both an offensive and defensive party buff. However, each is so completely underpowered as to be useless to the party. Maxed vital force gives +36 damage, which is less than 10% for any decent endgamer...in other words, round-off error. Same with brute force, which adds 5 armor. (At least that's where I stopped raising it at 6 points, since the next is still +5 i.e. no better). That's about 2-3% boost to average endgame armor. Again, round-off error. These skills provide decent self-buff, so they aren't a total loss, but I guess I was just expecting to be more of a boon to a party. Instead I end up as just a middling tank and another source of rev when all mages go down. It's pretty disappointing.

And as long as I'm here, what's with the ultra-wimpy damage per second on the skills? Summon does -18 H/s for 5 seconds, which is a max of 90 damage total, but only to a completely unarmored foe. Likewise, rhino might does -9 H/s for 3 seconds. That's a whopping 27! damage if the target's completely naked. I mean, maybe these damage amounts make a difference in the fist 20 levels, but they don't even come close to registering against real foes.

I'm glad you guys went to the trouble to make new classes and skills and all, but really some of these fail just on paper. You don't have to do a lot of experiments or "wait for the data to come in" to see that the things I mentioned above are an outright failure in their basic design. You really need to go back the drawing board and either beef up rhino damage output or really crank up their ability to buff the party. Right now it can't fight and it can't help the party in any meaningful way. It's a class stuck in no-man's land.