End-game balance

[Waug]

First off, increase the damage of bow was a good decision, though it's debatable that we need 100k extra xp to get that, actually every 2h weapon should be more powerful to compete shield and 1h.

My answer from another thread that elite bow being op -

Let me answer your question partially -

If you've noticed, every elite weapon (dex, int, str) is op and these are 2H at the same time each and every item. Now str and int classess aren't used to 2H weapons in general but birds are, and they have grown up using 2H weapons in general, and it's also a fact that they're bit more optimize to do so.

Tbh, 2H weapons meant to deliver way much damage as you taking the risk of being fragile, and I think it's a step to balance classes.

One shot kill sucks true, and your decision to make defense more powerfull shall obviously work but -

1>Dodge should be more dependent on opponent's hit% which has not been the case since hit % got saturated ages ago, if not possible simply nerf cuz its good defence at pve but bad impact on pvp already str doing more than 6 dodge per 10 hit.

2> Increasing hp significantly may cause another problems like bears and mages being too op, but bit change is okay, specially in an appropriate way, example, who get max advantage from it get less hp.

3> Scope is here - armor should be increased in an appropriate way. it should do the trick, automatically per hit damage shall be reduced significantly. Simply it has nearly same effect as more hp.

[Waug]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are underpowered naturally... Etc....

Hey Techno -

I'd love to come up with a list of players that would love to help out that are also experienced and familiar with many PvP levels).

I highly recommend that you try to find a bunch of players to gather up and discuss stats.

Funny, forum is the best place to discuss thing but yes, there's a good idea if devs wanna test something as they're not experienced in pvp but they have full knowledge of game mechanics. They should invite few active well experienced pvp-ers from all the classes and let them fight and devs should watch that what's happening and what's the core problem.

[Bous]

Make the damage in PvP like half of what can be done in pve. :P.

[nobounds]

heres my 2 cents

[dudetus]

heres my 2 cents

Agreed with ur point

[Noodleleg]

heres my 2 cents

awmg so shinyyy!!! Must haz!!! I bai eet fur 2 plat?

[MightyMicah]

heres my 2 cents

In God we trust? Sounds good to me

[GrammerPatrol]

Hey techno email can you make uncrafted sets no so underpowered then crafted sets I could never afford crafted sets Ive been playing since fang and im still not rich. And can you make it to where uncrafted sets dont cost over 1million gold to buy. Right now im still in half humania gear and 1 piece of new gear. Last cap was awseome because I was able to hang with the crafted people but I cant anymore cant even get uncrafted set

[tHelonestud]

Rhinos have the most minimal critical buff possible that is why I believe the absolutely suck, bears have FAR to big of a dmg buff
There is WAY too much dodge all around. It's not even pvp now it's like player versus luck. I mean seriously how is a 45 or 48 dodge buff supposed to make pvp better. I realized you want pve balanced as well.
But as one dev said during the sewers: they focused to make it balanced pvp-wise, which I believe they did an ideal job at, they said the players came across as an underdog in pve, which I think players, at least back then before elixirs governing everything, found a good challenge. And even then it wasn't impossible. I feel like the maps since Nuri's were designed for elixir users, which made them unbalanced for pve with normal players.
My two cents...

[Techno Email]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined.

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item.

[dudetus]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined.

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item.

I agree with u on those points. But the main factor which spoils end game PvP are the ridicilously overpowered buffs. Birds' Focus and Evasion give 45 crit and 45 dodge for 20 seconds. I have been playing quite a bit of MMO games and the highest long crit or evasion buffs I can remember are around 10, on glass cannon characters. The increased health pool and armor would be an awesome addition and the 50% adding sounds just perfect, but if the buffs aren't nerfed, it's still useless.

[Deathofan]

Lv7 skills were perfect, maybe nerf the dodge buffs and increase the rhino's party buffs. 50% more hp is perfect if you also apply the 50% more armor.

[AbsolutePally]

Regarding health. Let's double what the attributes already have. For example having 300 total str (w gear) gives 150 HP, what if it gave 300. Then armor could stay as is, and the damage. But reduce the 9 back to 7 for things like buffs.
And same with mana- that shield gets taken away so quickly, mages need a much larger shield to even survive and use skills. So double what int gives to the mana pool.
Then make it so dex and int ALSO give health, but at a rate reduced. Say mages get it at 30% birds 50%. So if the mage has 300 total w gear int that gives the mage 100 extra health AND 300 extra mana pool. If the bird has 300 dex points that's 150 extra HP. And of course adding str say just 40 would further increase HP to 40 on all classes.
Also boost the amount of stats those attributes give to the other stats (dodge is fine and may need to be toned down so a simple reduction in skill level would suffice.) Meaning using str on a non str class is fairly useless (other than to equip gear) It only gives around a handful of armor a few dodge points and a small health pool. So instead of boosting armor on gear just make it so all those attribute points we get are actually.usefull..
There's not a huge difference between a gearless level 50 and a gearless 76 in terms of stat points.

1. Increase health and mana pools by utilizing a system already in place.
2. Have a buff cap limit. 7 for buffs (bom, bov, evade, taunt, focus, etc) rest can be 9.

Two other quick solutions: make taunt not stack. If devs don't know this The buff taunt doubles and can be kept up indefinitely. AND get rid of Absorbed. It negates an entire combo automatically.

[Gaunab]

make taunt not stack. If devs don't know this The buff taunt doubles and can be kept up indefinitely. AND get rid of Absorbed. It negates an entire combo automatically.

Without their dodge bears would get one-comboed every time by birds... Yeah damage and dodge are out of control but they cant tweak one without changing the other one respectively.
Also, why would you cruel blast a shielded mage anyways? just lead with a blast. duh They are weak enough atm.

[GELLIO77]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined.

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item.

granted you may not be experienced in pvp but to really find out the problem you should try playing it on every class. see all their strengths and weaknesses.

as we've discussed the rhino is kinda crappy, dodge is now what is relied on to win and health is way to low.

i dont pvp endgame but 66 mages still get squished, and an angel pally is just crap.

also on your points 3-4 health needs to be increased to the point where mages dont get one shotted by birds and bear or tone down skill damage to that point. point four is similar to point 3, we need enough armour so that pvp is a game of skill and not crit or dodge, also decrease mana regen on str gear. bears (who str is meant for) dont need a lot of ms.

[Chickenrunnn]

Ok Ok.. Another pvp balancing thread awesome ! I'm gonna be able to express myself !

First, click there for a post I had made about suggestions for pvp and ctf (at the of it)

 

Hello everyone

This is the thread I was waiting for for ages ! I'm gonna speak for a long time...

___________________________

1. What advantages does your dual-spec. build out offer?

So, I've tested nearly all lvls .. Here are my thoguhts :
lvl16 : this lvl is kinda balanced, even if dex bears using forgotten bow nearly own everyone. (Full DEX)
lvl26 : mage with forgotten bow (INT/DEX or FULL DEX) hits 350, and birds dodge all hitting the same.. Birds dodge bear,s pull,, they just stay 10m far, and auto kill...
lvl30 : Mages using mana shield cannot be killed. (INTEX builts, or full dex using forgotten and kiting)
vl35 : everyone can kill everyone.. bird (FULL DEX) owns, Mage (INT/DEX) using forgotten also, and good bears cannot b killed.
lvl40 : not many people there ^^.. there are more lvl37, and birds mages with forgotten r good. Bear (INT/DEX/STR) are VERY VERY good O.O)
lvl45 : not much people there too :/.. My bird lvl45 full dex cannot be killed
lvl50 : not many people there also xD.. Mages full int using death set, or bird full dex using death set are very good
lvl55 : I've just started it yesterday, so I cannot speak much about it .. Seems to be nice.
lvl75 : I haven't lvl up my bird yet.. I'm sure it will b awesome with new crafted gear.. :P

________________________________

2. Is this spec. particularly viable at certain level ranges?

Yeah lol.. In all lower lvls, you cannot not have a forgotten bow.. you'd die in the minute

________________________________

3. Is the spec. more advantageous in PVP or PVE game types?

In pvp..
in lower levels :
for birds, mages, bears, Dex is more advantageous.. Give HIT%, Damage, dodge.
for mages, int and dex are more advantageous
for bears, full dex is more advantageous..

in higher levels

full dex for birds, Str dex for bears, full int or int dex for mages..

________________________________

4. Which abilities do you invest most in with this spec.?

Mages :

Blessings, drain fire light..

Birds :

break, blind, focus, evasion, blast

Bears :

Reckon stomp to make people fly xD..
jk Reckon, iron, rage, SmS

________________________________

5. What type of gear makes this spec. more viable?
- Does the gear tend to have Str, Dex, or Int stat requirements?

Yeah : forgotten bows lol .. I've purchased one for each of my chars x)
Pumpkin chunkers has become good too for range .. but they have less DPS than forgotten..

- Do you prefer defensive or damage stat's on this character's gear?

With the forgotten, damage style is the way to be

Extra Suggestions ^^

In CtF, there is something called "spawning"..

The opposite team wait for you in your own spawning place, generally they are 3 to be sure you can't survive, and kill u before you could do anything when you sawn.
This is REALLY boring and lame, and it makes me mad each time.. Something NEEDS to be done about that...

So I thought.. I wondered for days of ways that would stop spawning, avoiding farming kills, and many argues because that...

Here is a list of solution which could be done to STOP the spawning issue :


1ST SOLUTION : The Invisible Wall.

Make like an invisible wall, in front of each spawning place, which would compel the other team's player yo
enter into your room.
This invisible wall would stop any guys who have flags, to avoid the flag holder to hide into his own spawning place..

2ND SOLUTION : The Spawning Immunity (Patsoe Idea)

It shouldn't be hard to be made since it already exists in pve for plats..

When you spawn, you would get 3-4 Seconds of immunity which would avoid you to die spawned.

3RD SOLUTION : The Immunity Room

You would be invincible into your spawning room, but once you have left the room, you cannot be invincible anymore until you spawn again into your room.

_________________________

In PvP this time, there is a fashion those days.. A lame, bad, and sad fashion which is rushing..

You know.. Rushing.. Let me tell you a story

______

Once upon a time, in a far away country called Alterra, a lil' nice lovely mage was running to Forest manor, to have a wave to his lover, the wonderfully ugly elf queen..
He had bought mother's day flowers to go and ask elf queen to be his wife..
Suddently, a big flash.. He couldn't understand what happened, and he will never have the chance to declaration of love : he was dead..

No, it's not a truck or a car which hitted him, but a group of rushers, thirsting for fresh blood, easy kills, to get their stats better..
He couldn't feel the puke, of the murederers, on him, since he was dead, but his lil' frail corpse was lying there, on the floor..
_______

Hey!! You've just been witness of a rushing crime!! Why don't you report it??
Some rushers said me "It's funny to rush", "it's the way pvp should be" , and "don't pvp if you don't rush"..

Afterwards, when I kill rushers, they call their guild to team me to be sure not to die.. So brave..
But when we start teaming them, there they become lame.. They insult and rage quite, but they are happy of the kills they got from rushing..

______

Do you find this normal?
Before, they were no rushes. People were nice, waiting their turn, and not rushing everyone just for the "so funny pleasure" of rushing...
It is pathetic, sad, evil, mean, selfish, and not funny at all -.-..

So I thought to some solutions to stop it..

1st Solution :

Make a map OFFICIALLY for rushers and another for the people who don't wanna get rushed.. They could rush theirselves, and everyone would be happy..

2nd Solution :

Maybe in the "no rushing map", make a system where you click on the player to ask him in fight.. Until the other didn't accept the fight by clicking on "yes", the other isn't able to kill him..
This would ruin rushers strategies which is running to the guy, buff damage, and kill with 2 skills and 1 auto..

____________________

Another suggestion that I had made a long time ago improve pvp training by 100 Here it is ((Here)

Map Attributes :

• It would be a map called "PvP Training Day !"
  
• Kills and the death wouldn't count first of all ==> It would permit to try combos, without having to give a free after the opponent's death, and then, avoid killing PvP K/D..
  
• Secondly, all LvLs could be training together, a lvl5 with a lvl66 for example, who could teach him the basics
  
• Thirdly, you could access it threw guild hall tiers 3.

____________________________________


Here it is

I hope I wasn't too long :/..

If more ideas come out to my mind, I'll edit the post

Thanks for taking in consideration what I said

Have a good day ^^!!

______________________

Secondly,I'm gonna be speaking about what should be done in pvp in end game to make the game play WAY more funny than it is now. (I'll make a lil' list I love lists :,D)

• First of all, increase armor of birds and mages by 30%.. It is beeing boring to see 710 hits from mages, 604 from birds and even 496 from pull of a savage bear.
• or lower damage.. PvP needs damage hit 300 crtitical MAX, and not 710 headshots
• or increase birds and mage hp by 30% to let them have a chance to get a decent fight.
• Lower dodge : birds and bears now have around 70-100% dodge..
• LOWER elite rings powers in pvp and ctf!!!!
  (I'll quote myself.. again.. because I don't feel like retelling all , it explains concretly powers of vanities.)
  
  

  - Elite ring. (3 pieces + black dragon set = 3 str, 3 dex, 3 int, 5 dodge, 2 hit, 67HP!!, 1hp/s, 10 mana, 1M/s 10 damage, 10 armor)
  - Founder helm : 5 damage 10 armor!
  - Op phoenix bow !! (comparated to the crafted swift bow, it adds 3 critical, 1 dodge, 10 damage, 12 dps, 20 armor!!!!!!)
  - 5 class point + 1 skill point
  
  During last cap, Elite sea bow was only adding 2 damage, 2 dps comparated to the crafted phantom bow.. Why such a BIG DIFFERENCE??
  
  Now, "elite" players, with "elite" gear, using those 3 things can be having an ENORMOUS advantage comparated to the players who don't have any of them.
  
  Why don't you do anything about that? Why don't you disable/lower vanities overpower in PvP CtF which should be based on skils of the player, and not based on the extra "elite" gear he is wearing.
  
  Look in sewer times, everything was fine, and players were having good kdr, according to their skills, and not to their great extra gears. .. And all was fine.
  
  I hope my voice will be heard, and please, don't say I tell this because I don't have any of those. It is a fact, vanities are extremly advantageous in PvP/CtF.

  ___________

Techno, I have a question, which could be a suggestion, but I think you will never make it.. Unfortunately..

Why couldn't you make 2xp won per player killed or item or gold like 5g like it no one want to farm it? Look at those advantages :

• Firstly, it would permit to people (like me -.-) who find that farming zombies repeateadly in dungeons is extremly boring, to get xp, some noobs items, and a lil' gold, just to reward them for playing hardcore pvp.
• There would be way more pvpers/ctfers, because I know many people who don't like pve, but who play it just to get some gold.. Why wouldn't be possible to put that in cf/pvp?
• Of course, the amount of xp won won't be huge : it would permit just to get a little experience point by pvping, but not enough to cap, so that, it still will be a need to go to pve and use trashers to get the necessary amount of xp to cap. But it would at least make us feel we don't loose our time in pvp/ctf, because we would win something by doing hard things.

Could you tell us what could be possible to be done to give pvp and ctf their old golden ages.

______________

Sorry if I have been a bit long, but I think long posts are necessary to make things more awesome as they are already !!

Have a nice day !

[Fusionstrike]

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out.

<snip>

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)

Since it looks like you drew on my rhino comments, I'll add my opinion. How much better should force buffs be? Well, I don't think I know enough to say "make it x% better!" but I can say that it's only going to make a difference if the party can "feel" that something is better. That is, with vital force on, the party should notice "hey we're really dishing out the damage here!" What would that take? I don't know exactly, but it's probably best expressed as a percentage difference over "normal" output. What's noticeable? Well anything 10% or less isn't going to register, so probably something around 25% or so is going to be "felt". Now all you have to do is figure out how much better it has to be to make the party do that percentage better, and at what rank it does so, and how long it should stay on. (That's why they pay you the big bucks.)

Ditto on defensive force buff: it has to be enough better to register, so probably like 25% better damage absorption. Whether that's implemented in better armor, better dodge, higher H/s, or some combination is what you're going to have to figure out. (See big bucks comment above.)

This is my first reaction without a huge amount of thought. There are other aspects of rhino that need some tweaking as well (as I pointed out). I'll do more noodling on the rhino problem when I have time.

[tHelonestud]

Tanking should be armour/health based rather than dodge based
Skill are too extreme now, like 60 hit debuff is kinda ridculous, make skills do more variety instead of just magnifying what they do already like add a health regen buff to evade, a health buff to taunt, have rage increase movent speed a bit rather than a 180 dmg buff essentially(considering the crit), throw a crit debuff into hellscream and blind, put some regen debuffs into root

[XXTHEEAGLEXX]

I agree with Chilenrun and think those things r way too op.
I also think we nd more Health and armour.
But dodge is okay.
Health can be increased by 150%
Which will require more skill and a Longer combo for birds

[Renegade]

A more logical approach would be to not allow auto attack to be triggered automatically by using 1 skill. This would be a less "riskier" change that I think would change pvp a bit. This would mainly make birds a little less OP. It might seem like a small worthless change, but since I solely pvp on a bird I can for sure tell you that most bird fights end in "2 shots". Really though it is only 1 shot but since auto is triggered automatically, this makes it so birds just need to use 1 skill and still hit auto. If players had to turn on auto manually like it used to be, then it sure would tone down most birds quite a bit. Because most birds don't have the speed to shoot out several skills. They depend on that auto attack triggering on its own. It should be taken out of pvp and the old way brought back. Auto attack required to be turned on manually. It should be kept in pve though, because I am sure it makes it easier for the newer players and is very useful. But from the pvp standpoint, players know what they're doing. So yeah, in closing auto attack should not be triggered automatically by using 1 skill, it should be turned on by the player manually. Only in pvp though.