***The Forgotten Myth: Debunking the "OP" Talk***
Preface
The Forgotten Event came to the PL community in August, 2012. Despite the originality and great fun of this event, the aftermath has been less than desired. Threads upon numerous threads have been made to discuss the "OMG over powered Forgotten weapons." Despite the advantages in PvE, exciting, new items to merch and collect, and what many thought would bring new strategy and testing to PvP, many would like to take the names of these weapons literally and "Forget them." Yet, with all of the talk, discussing, flaming, and raging over these weapons, not one single thread has been made to actually compare/contrast these weapons with others used in PL... Until now.
This thread is an attempt to look at the complaints/issues associated with the Forgotten weapons (more specifically the bow(s)), and provide actual data to make a more informed decision on the efficacy of their existence within the game.
***DISCLAIMER***
I ask as you read the information below, each of you keep on open mind despite your stance. This thread is not an attack to those who want the items removed, nor a representation for those who are for the items. Any discussion outside constructive criticism, data analysis, or friendly discussion will be automatically reported. In other words, put your "big boy pants" on before reading. If you cannot follow these simple requests, please stop reading now and exit or do not comment.
The Over-powered (OP) Forgotten Weapons
For the sake of a more lengthy discussion, we will limit this portion of the thread to bows only. During the Forgotten event, many quickly discovered how weapons could be farmed at each level starting at 10. To many, especially farmers and PvE specialists, this provided a new and exciting opportunity to earn gold while seeing a steady flow of "pink." A steady comeback of veterans was seen and toons were being created and "power-leveled" at a frenetic pace so as to gain as many of these limited items as possible. I was able to gather a mass of over 400 pinks (mostly bows) and almost 1000 total items. At one time, I was in possession of one of each weapon at every level from 10-71. Despite the rush to farm and the overall success of the event, it didn't take long for a growing number of individuals to form and present their dismay for these items.
Some of the most common arguments against the Forgotten items are their massive increase in damage (rendering old twinking items useless and merely collector's items) and the Blinding proc of the bow. These arguments range from nerfing the items to completely removing them from the game. Suggestions have been made to have a second Forgotten event to provide helms/armor to counteract the power of the weapons. However, those against this idea look at it as having the same results as the first event: Rendering collectible/discontinued twink items as useless. Many thought/hoped the 2012 WinterFest event would even the playing field, but this did not happen.
But wait, what about the 2012 Halloween event? Some may say "Halloween items have always had horrible stats," and "Those items are only good for looks or collecting." This has always been true, until now. When disbelief is turned into fact, the 2012 Halloween items are in fact comparable to the forgotten items, and in some cases, are just as OP as the Forgotten items. And until now, no one has taken the time to actually compare/contrast these items.
Data concerning 2012 Halloween items and Forgotten bows
Enough talk. It is time to let the pictures do the talking. Below you will find pictures which will provide statistical data in reference to Forgotten bows and the comparable Halloween Pumpkin Chunker. I focused on two of the more discussed levels when these issues come to light: Levels 35 and 15.
Let's begin at 35:
I no longer have a bird at this level so I used one of my bears to serve the purpose of this thread. He is a level 36 initially equipped with a shivering set with talon, then will move to a Green Ice xbow, Lv 35 Forgotten bow, and finally a 35 Pumpkin Chunker.
Stomp Damage with this set is 142-153 at level 6.
Stomp Damage is now 147-158.
Stomp Damage with Chunker is 192-202.
Stomp Damage is 197-207 with the Forgotten bow.
Until the introduction of the Forgotten bow, many dex bears (most common dex character at this level) used either the Shivering talon set or an xbow. Builds and playstyles determined the efficacy of which to use. Armor vs. range. The freezing proc served well with a bears Stomp skill to provide a combo. The slightly higher base damage of the xbow was not enough to make it a clear cut favorite over the talon. The only clear disadvantage to either set: Those pesky Voodoo's.
Then came the Forgotten bows. We can tell by the stats they are much more powerful than the two "classic" options, but create a greater loss of mana regen which is much more critical in the long term than at upper levels of PvP. This increase in damage also greatly increases the skill damage as we see a rise of 50 damage over the Shivering options. But look at option 4: The Pumpking Chunker. The EXACT same stats as the Forgotten bow with only 5 less damage. Yes, the Forgotten Bow has the proc we spoke of earlier, but, as we will see next, the Chunker has superior range. So, when speaking on the topic of "over powered", we are looking at a difference of 5 damage vs range. Let me add, before the discussion of damage/proc > range, let me remind those who weren't around how much more powerful the Custom Recurve is versus the Xbow yet many swear by the Xbow. Should we also discuss how, again before the Forgotten event, the 10-20ish crowd were constantly debating between talons and snowball launchers. Launcher had slightly more damage and a proc, but many preferred the talon. Sound familiar?
When discussing range, let the pictures do the talking:
The pictures obviously represent themselves. The range discussion clearly belongs to the Chunker. Why do I bring this up? Since I first started participating in PvP, I have always been told that range is king. Master the range of your weapons and skills, master PvP. However, since the introduction of the Forgotten weapons, we hear less of this and more about the damage of these weapons. So I pose the question: If the range is superior and the base damage is comparable, why is the chunker NOT a viable option?
While we ponder this set of data, let's look at the next highly populated level of PvP: Level 15. Same as above, however, I have thrown in a slight twist. I'll let you see what I did.
Stomp damage is 110-121 at level 5.
Stomp damage with Forgotten bow is 108-118.
Stomp damage with the Chunker is 107-117.
It is well known how "insignificant" the talons and snowball launchers/duckfoots have become. From all accounts and posts, Forgotten rules the lover levels. So I decided to twist it up a bit and look at the Reaper blade. Please remember all weapons are of the same level and I fully understand Forgotten weapons can scale per level; I am strictly looking at the level 15 versions.
I chose the Reaper blade in this comparison for one reason: Base damage. Long has been the misunderstanding that DPS rules. Base damage is the prime factor in determining skill damage and is more than visible above. The Reaper blade provides a higher low-end base damage and more powerful Stomp. In comparison with previous "slashing" twink weapons, this weapon is by far the most powerful STS has released, with NO complaints. Hmmm...
When comparing the Forgotten bow and the Pumpkin Chunker, we come to the same agreement as before: Comparable damage versus range. At this level more than any other level of PvP I have participated in I have been told "Know your range, rule 10-20." The new factor in all of this is now the fact that birds are more effective than ever before. Very few were able to compete against bears and this change in demographics has really caused a great unsettling. So if the Chunker has superior range and the same (basically) damage, shouldn't an experienced Chunker user be able to beat a "noob" Forgotten user?
But let's not end this debate here. If we truly want to dive into the "OP" discussion, should we not look into just how much the Halloween items improved? Look at this.
Stomp damage with a complete Copper set using the "typical" build is 147-160.
Stomp damage using Copper gear with a Reaper blade is 179-193.
Since many can remember, Copper bears have been a popular build in 35 PvP. With the introduction of these new Halloween weapons, the trident is easily replaced by the Reaper blade. Yes, a slight loss in dexterity drops hit% slightly, and there is a loss in armor, but the vast difference in damage can, in the eyes of some, make up for these slight losses. And yet bears aren't the only group affected. Look below at what happens to my Voodoo mage:
These pics show how the Monkey Paw and Bracer render my fire pin and Dreamer's Swamp juice as possibly inferior. Yet, I have not seen any complaints as to these newer items being more "op" compared to the traditional items.
Conclusion
We have looked at items from various events and at various levels. It is understood how Forgotten weapons (especially bows) took the PL community by storm and did cause drastic changes to PvP, more specifically the lower levels. We also see how this event wasn't the only one to make changes to how PL is played. The constant requests for "nerfiing" of the Forgotten bows may have actually been answered in some way. The purpose of this thread is to have those on both sides of the fence to step back and see there is more to this argument than just one single item, or even one stat associated with that item.
The beauty of PL has always been about how creative the community has been in various situations, especially with builds and answers to change. Sometimes, when change occurs abruptly or without warning, we tend to lose sight of the things that made this game once thrive. Sometimes we need to sit back and analyze before just attacking. It is also good to admit when we could be overreacting to something which may not be as big of an issue as we once thought.
Thank you for your time.
Originally Posted by Justg
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