***The Forgotten Myth: Debunking the "OP" Talk***

[MightyMicah]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

[CrimsonTider]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

Thanks for the feedback, Micah. I agree with your retreat/attack theory. I remember someone saying a few updates back that they felt the mechanics had changed when retreating. Wanna say it was Gaunab or Otu.... Can't really recall.

Also, yes, I shot at the barrels around 20 times with each weapon to get an accurate picture. (Really, I didn't want to look dumb. ) I didn't post the pic of the green ice but it and the chunker had an equal distance which was greater than the FB.

Just wanted to get it out there that FB weren't the only weapons to get a steriod shot recently. Now that I think of it, I honestly wonder why WF items didn't get the bump Halloween did. If WF had gotten a similar increase, this thread (and all the others) may not exist.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Great read, I can't really say anything. I'm with sub.

[WarTornBird]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

The whole range deal is very annoying. I've pointed this out many times. Birds firing off at me at 15m and I can't even fire my xbow.
As for the range of the bow. Every recurve is 10m and xbows are 13m. Forgotten being of the "recurve" family I guess.

[Caiahar]

I kinda disagree to ppl who say Halloween and forg stuff should be removed from game. I believe they should put a restriction to no Halloween items or forg weapons in pvp. Pve it would be fine. Anyone can use em. In pvp, no, pve, yes. If sts can put an Easter event, surely they can put this restriction in pvp for no forg weapons or no Halloween items.
Wouldnt this be good?

[MightyMicah]

Thanks for the feedback, Micah. I agree with your retreat/attack theory. I remember someone saying a few updates back that they felt the mechanics had changed when retreating. Wanna say it was Gaunab or Otu.... Can't really recall.

Also, yes, I shot at the barrels around 20 times with each weapon to get an accurate picture. (Really, I didn't want to look dumb. ) I didn't post the pic of the green ice but it and the chunker had an equal distance which was greater than the FB.

Just wanted to get it out there that FB weren't the only weapons to get a steriod shot recently. Now that I think of it, I honestly wonder why WF items didn't get the bump Halloween did. If WF had gotten a similar increase, this thread (and all the others) may not exist.

No problem! I'm glad you agree cause I don't wanna sound like an idiot

Ok awesome. I think it's safe to say it has less range then.

The whole range deal is very annoying. I've pointed this out many times. Birds firing off at me at 15m and I can't even fire my xbow.
As for the range of the bow. Every recurve is 10m and xbows are 13m. Forgotten being of the "recurve" family I guess.

Getting drained at 13 meter when I can't even repulse the Mage is also very annoying.

[Deathofan]

Yich has been the strongest advocate for nerfing/removal Forgotten weapons and posed a much better response than both of yours combined.

As I said, if you cannot read the thread in it's entirety and keep an open mind, please leave.

I don't think I've ever said that I would like them nerfed/removed from game, but suggested how things would have been good with. In fact, I like them alot for PvE purposes either for farming at a specific level or just leveling another character to a pvp level (my pvp territory is 56-76), I no longer do low lv pvp due to these bows.

As for the "please leave" part, all I did was talk about how this bows influenced over the archer which is still considered on topic. With that said, I will tell you the same thing you have said to many forumers, this is a public forum, and everyone has the equal rights to post within it, yes of course by staying on topic which I clearly did. Now if you have something agaisnt me (which I noticed on all the threads we were involved), it's fine, I care this . much as of it, just take it to the Pm's where we can make sure it gets fixed. This was not meant to be offensive, but to put some periods.

[Victorhm]

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

[CrimsonTider]

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

[Caiahar]

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

Getting rid of the forg bows....and Halloween items....I honestly think to stop this nonsense in pvp is to make forg bows/staff/blade and (maybe) Halloween items restricted to PvE Only. The forg weapons are very useful for farming characters.

[Oskitopee]

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

Imagine if in a game like WoW we didn't get more health as we leveled up LOL.

[CrimsonTider]

I kinda disagree to ppl who say Halloween and forg stuff should be removed from game. I believe they should put a restriction to no Halloween items or forg weapons in pvp. Pve it would be fine. Anyone can use em. In pvp, no, pve, yes. If sts can put an Easter event, surely they can put this restriction in pvp for no forg weapons or no Halloween items.
Wouldnt this be good?

Getting rid of the forg bows....and Halloween items....I honestly think to stop this nonsense in pvp is to make forg bows/staff/blade and (maybe) Halloween items restricted to PvE Only. The forg weapons are very useful for farming characters.

Only need to post your stance once. Repeating your desires is exactly what I said I did NOT want in this thread. This is the crap we have seen on forums for the last 7+ months. Please bring something valuable to the table or stop posting in this thread.

Thank you.

[loliamsocool]

I don't know how to quote a section of an essay, so..you stated that Range is king..then you compare a ranged forgotten bow with damage almost identical to a NON RANGED weapon as a small argument towards the nerf forgotten bow stance. I'm strictly low level pvper at 10-26 so I'm obviously extremely biased when it comes to weapons for the good of the entire community, but an easy solution would just be to nerf forgotten bows at a certain level of pvp..i.e. at levels 10-whatever is considered non op forgotten bow. I've heard at endgame that the forgotten bow is merely what snowball launchers were to 20 pvp back in 2011 so those dont need to be nerfed. Why all the argument over a simple solution?

[CrimsonTider]

I don't know how to quote a section of an essay, so..you stated that Range is king..then you compare a ranged forgotten bow with damage almost identical to a NON RANGED weapon as a small argument towards the nerf forgotten bow stance. I'm strictly low level pvper at 10-26 so I'm obviously extremely biased when it comes to weapons for the good of the entire community, but an easy solution would just be to nerf forgotten bows at a certain level of pvp..i.e. at levels 10-whatever is considered non op forgotten bow. I've heard at endgame that the forgotten bow is merely what snowball launchers were to 20 pvp back in 2011 so those dont need to be nerfed. Why all the argument over a simple solution?

Considering I compared/contrasted approximately 11 weapons at various ranges and the majority of the argument was between FB and Halloween Chunkers, which I stated/proved have higher range, please explain again what you missed. I also never said "Range is king." Using basic reading skills I said that when I started PvP, many of the pro's in-game and on forums have always explained that knowing your range is what separates the "pro's" from the rest. (I.E. Range is king.)

Also, if you had read the thread in it's entirety, the main non-ranged weapons (also known as melee weapons) I compared were the Copperhead Trident and the level 35 Reaper blade to show STS bumped the damage up for more weapons other than just Forgotten. For 2 1/2 years, Copper bears used the trident because it completed the set and has a break armor proc. With the increase in damage of the Reaper blade, the trident has become the lvl 35 equivalent of the lvl 15 snowball launcher.

Again, as he disclaimer stated, read the thread in it's entirety and come with an open mind. Keeps me from having to explain issues which have already been explained.

[loliamsocool]

Considering I compared/contrasted approximately 11 weapons at various ranges and the majority of the argument was between FB and Halloween Chunkers, which I stated/proved have higher range, please explain again what you missed. I also never said "Range is king." Using basic reading skills I said that when I started PvP, many of the pro's in-game and on forums have always explained that knowing your range is what separates the "pro's" from the rest. (I.E. Range is king.)

Also, if you had read the thread in it's entirety, the main non-ranged weapons (also known as melee weapons) I compared were the Copperhead Trident and the level 35 Reaper blade to show STS bumped the damage up for more weapons other than just Forgotten. For 2 1/2 years, Copper bears used the trident because it completed the set and has a break armor proc. With the increase in damage of the Reaper blade, the trident has become the lvl 35 equivalent of the lvl 15 snowball launcher.

Again, as he disclaimer stated, read the thread in it's entirety and come with an open mind. Keeps me from having to explain issues which have already been explained.

you actually did say that you were taught range is king in a post on this thread somewhere or even on the original post. please do not bash me for my reading skills whenever you actually just stated my point in your counter argument "knowing your range".

I was typing up a counter argument for all your points but i pressed some f# button deleting all my words and now i dont have the heart to do it lol today...perhaps tomorrow.
also since i am an addicted level 15 i will tell you right now talon vs snowballs is an absolute unfair comparison to fbows vs. traditional weapons lol, for one,

talons are way better/easier than snowballs simply because of the higher hit% combined with armor, and the way you have to fight with snowballs is much different than talon fights, and requires MUCH more knowledge of skills...in essence a snowball fight is staying JUST outside of your opponents stomp range while waiting for ice to proc.
the only 15 i dread using snowball is/was bous because he actually has the extreme knowledge/luck required to use snowball

also another point at level 20 when snowball came out, was the main level. The reason why talon are better at that level is because the method of fighting then was hell scream first aka called wreck your opponents hit%..
and as im sure youve noticed talons have better hit % than snowballs.

lolty off my soap box and hopefully tomorrow ill try and effectively convey my point in a counter argument on this thread lol

fix: also lol my problem was with you even attempting to include a reaper blade argument in *LEVEL 15* PVP *ON A BEAR*, where melee is completely useless and any amount of damage put on them will have no use whatsoever. lol.

[Zeus]

The answer is not to nerf forgotten bows, but increase damage reduction algorithm Asommers put into PvP when weapon damage was getting too high.

I'm sure bumping up the percentage won't take much effort at all and in turn, we will have a lot of satisfied PvPers.

[loliamsocool]

The answer is not to nerf forgotten bows, but increase damage reduction algorithm Asommers put into PvP when weapon damage was getting too high.

I'm sure bumping up the percentage won't take much effort at all and in turn, we will have a lot of satisfied PvPers.

in turn also lowering damage of talons...? lol

[Zeus]

in turn also lowering damage of talons...? lol

Sure. Talons were never meant to do much damage anyways.

It's time to learn to move on. Things change. The rose wand and PL shield are no longer the kings in twinking they once were. People still moved on, but that time it was only because very very few people had it.

Why're y'all complaining now?

[loliamsocool]

Sure. Talons were never meant to do much damage anyways.

It's time to learn to move on. Things change. The rose wand and PL Shirld are no longer the kings in twinking they once were. People still moved on, but that time it was only because very very few people had it.

Why're y'all complaining now?

The reason why rose wand was so op was simply the proc combined with hell scream. not the damage...also the PL shield extra 17 armor or something...lol.
We are complaining because nothing of this sort has ever been attempted on any level...what im saying is nobody has ever raised 50+ damage on anything. Reason why nobody complained was because you were an all around great guy sometime in 2011 and was probably one of only 20s who used rose wand.
also if you want to make forgotten bows the main weapon, youll probably have to suggest to the devs a forg bow event every year where more "newbies" can get the forg bows they need to pvp. Long as they keep a consistent gameplan with less damage im fine with it.

[CrimsonTider]

you actually did say that you were taught range is king in a post on this thread somewhere or even on the original post. please do not bash me for my reading skills whenever you actually just stated my point in your counter argument "knowing your range".

I was typing up a counter argument for all your points but i pressed some f# button deleting all my words and now i dont have the heart to do it lol today...perhaps tomorrow.
also since i am an addicted level 15 i will tell you right now talon vs snowballs is an absolute unfair comparison to fbows vs. traditional weapons lol, for one,

talons are way better/easier than snowballs simply because of the higher hit% combined with armor, and the way you have to fight with snowballs is much different than talon fights, and requires MUCH more knowledge of skills...in essence a snowball fight is staying JUST outside of your opponents stomp range while waiting for ice to proc.
the only 15 i dread using snowball is/was bous because he actually has the extreme knowledge/luck required to use snowball

also another point at level 20 when snowball came out, was the main level. The reason why talon are better at that level is because the method of fighting then was hell scream first aka called wreck your opponents hit%..
and as im sure youve noticed talons have better hit % than snowballs.

lolty off my soap box and hopefully tomorrow ill try and effectively convey my point in a counter argument on this thread lol

fix: also lol my problem was with you even attempting to include a reaper blade argument in *LEVEL 15* PVP *ON A BEAR*, where melee is completely useless and any amount of damage put on them will have no use whatsoever. lol.

You did not read the thread nor the purpose. I am NOT discussing strategy. I am NOT discussing whether weapons are viable at certain levels. I even stated at the end that I only covered a couple of areas to provide the necessary data for the purpose of the thread. If I had discussed every single weapon at every single "popular" level of PvP, noone would have read it at all.... too long.

The purpose of showing the melee weapons was strictly to show that Forgotten items were NOT the only weapons to get a recent buff.

There are plenty of other threads out there to discuss "strategy" in 10-20 PvP. Please find one of those to make your arguments here as I would like to keep mine on target.

@Parth - Thank you. As I stated above, the evolution of the game seems to not be a totality, just fragmented. Seems like, as with other things, STS had a fresh idea without thinking of the overall effect or changes which may be needed.