Decline in quality of PvP

[dudetus]

It is important to keep in mind too why SWTOR is in it's current situation. They were pretty WoW with a space theme. They also ignored a large percentage of their playerbase. In terms of monetary success, SWTOR is a failure in that regard. Had they followed the advice of their fledgling player base, they might have profitably ended up with a decent MMO and someday a competitor to WoW. But yes, the new model seems to be doing better (at least it's not hemorrhaging subscribers).

I suppose it's probably due to the past, but I personally do not trust EA - they've had too many shallow games, too many games with restrictive DRM, and ruined to many franchises - between that and a ton of goodwill lost, if a game says "EA" on it, more often that not, I will pass it up simply for the fact that it has EA. These days, there have been too many bad experiences. I feel though like my actions are vindicated by the results. For example, I loved Simcity 4; I still play it at times. But when Simcity 5 came out, I refused to buy it. My decision turned out to be very prescient, the game had unstable servers, caused solely by their decision to make an "always online" portion of thegame.

Sorry for de-railing the discussion with my SWtOR example. I myself just love to whole Star Wars as a genre and I'm personally glad how they stepped away from their destruction and turned the game around from a total failure to an MMO with slight hope - but isn't Star Wars always about hope ?

Big studios chase after money. They may at times provide innovation in terms of graphics power (although even then, often new engines are developed independently now) - just look at CoD, which uses the same id Tech 3 engine (although it has seen some modifications) as Quake III. By 2013 standards though, it's outdated. Crysis is an example of a game that did try to push the graphics boundary. The game had shallow gameplay, but I do applaud their willingness to push the envelope.

In terms of innovative gameplay - well, it almost always tend to come from indie studios these days. I personally find myself buying mainly from indies as well, although there are some AAA games I still play, most notably Shogun 2. I buy games for depth of game play, the mod community, and the overall attitude of the developer.

Exactly. As STS is still one of the smallest fish in the big mobile gaming develeoper pond, they should try to do the same Amnesia and DayZ did on PC. As u mentioned though, PL is considered as a breakthrough on mobile gaming but as the mobile players are considered more casual than PC gamers, one innovative breakthrough isn't yet enough as it happened before mobile gaming became more "serious" business. STS needs to find a way to bond the gamers, when thinking in a wide scale, and I myself see the solutions to be innovative regarding mobile gaming technology and and to actually care about their players on community level. They already had that and I see no reason why they can't do it again. I can't believe how they turned into "Zynga" as they aren't big enough organization to compete against the big gaming companies in terms of launching new games. Possibly they thought the mobile gaming's casuality to be an issue and because of that turned into their current strategy while they should have kept doing on what they were doing. Being innovative and bonding with their customers.

I think they're more comparable than you think they are. The playerbase is at times, more casual, but at the same time, as you have noted, the elements that make up a successful game or not are very similar.

I do believe that PL did push - they tried something that had not been done before, putting a game with enough depth to be a light PC MMO on a phone. Yes Gameloft and Zynga are definitely warning signs. I'll be blunt - I do not think that there is as much money in "social" or "mobile" gaming as people think. People used to talk about how the market would be several times the size (in revenues) of the PC market. When the first games hit the iPhone and Android, they were being sold in the range of $1-$5. The amount of sales for games priced more like at PC price points has been low and the number of people willing to pay up for the micropayments - I cannot imagine that it will be more than the PC and likely substantially less.

What it means though is that any company that wants to capitalize on mobile gaming had best do it's best for its community. Notice how quickly the top PvP community emptied out - right now PL is a PvP desert for hardcore players. Contrast this with games like WoW where people have played on for years. There are sites to help on "WoW addiction". That in and of itself is a testament to what they have created - a game so good that people need help when quitting! What does it mean? It means that mistakes could be much more costly than in the PC market and the consequences felt much sooner. Realistically, I cannot imagine PL having the kind of in depth theorycrafting and PvP community that it had between 2010 to 2012.

Yes, as mobile gaming is more casual, the consumer's opinions change more quickly and errors begin to show sooner than they show in PC games. But, this can also be an advantage to mobile game studios as the errors are shown more quickly they can correct to the errors more quickly. Too bad this hasn't been shown on STS side. And as u said long time ago, with every generation of new players, the average skill decreases. As STS can't keep hold of their oldest customers on PL (I started playing PL on November 2010 and recently quit) the average skill level decreases more rapidly. This affects mostly to the oldies who get frustrated with the new generation of players who don't know their roles within their classes and do not know the running/boss strategies etc. I myself took this issue in a thread some time ago (I'll post link to it in here as I find it). PL's current maps are more or less designed to be run on elixir. As the BSM (BlackSmoke Mountain) arrived I wasn't able to clear the first map of the new campaign with a random team as the first boss was too powerful for our unorganized team. It took me finally a guild run with Unity to clear the maps as the random games weren't able to kill the boss with me no matter how I tried to tell them the straregy. The daily blessings and daily elixir are the few main reasons I also blame the dramatic average skill drop as the newest players get accustomed to running with elixirs on the very first day.

Edit: Here's the link to my thread: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...d-the-End-Game. The post is made mostly out of elixirs and how they ruin the true game experience and decreases the average skill level and how IMO end game has turned P2P and P2W format.

But about the community. STS just needs to acknowledge us and listen to us to gain back our trust. PvP issues would have long ago been fixed if STS had listened to the community and made those changes. Even though time has passed and there will never be same era again as 2010-2012 was in this game, but it doesn't mean all hope is lost. We as a community just want to be acknowledged and listened.

And I do apologize for possible grammatic errors. English is not my mother tongue and few errors inevitably sneak to my posts.

[XghostzX]

I find it difficult for dedicated players sitting back on the chairs hoping that this game would have at least been fixed before other games came out. I would have been far more happy if PL just ended at a certain cap where everything was completely balanced, and they didn't have to make new campaigns.

I'm also upset, because STS totally let their community down. When I first joined these forums and the game, all bugs and content were constantly being updated in game. Players didn't rely on some silly reputation system to help out others - they would actually give long, in-depth feedback for assisting others. I go through the general discussion, and there are always 2-3 locked threads because players are carelessly posting. Some may say that this is our fault as players, but it also comes from STS.

Not too long ago, a player named Griffian posted a thorough page about how the community has fallen through the forums. He made a claim, similar to what WhoIsThis stated, that with new generations of players coming, the more decrease in skill and assistance there is. Then I ask myself: Why are we constantly blaming ourselves? When I say this, I'm merely playing devil's advocate, because the only thing I want with this game is for our rightfully deserved attention that STS promised us at the beginning. If there is to be no new content, no bug fixes, no changes to any great suggestions players have, then what can we expect? We're bound to start complaining and turning into trolls. I was banned on my Ipad through frustration, Dudetus was banned for sometime, and EFM. Face it guys, the only reason half of us are still here is because we've always loved the community. I have never found a more caring community than the Legend's series, but we are, and have always been on an exponential downfall.

I hate Elixirs. I hate how the game is unbalanced. I hate how the game evolves around plat. I hate how we even have a suggestions thread when nothing is ever implemented. That mailbox idea that's been suggested a thousand times? It's such a simple thing, yet never even touched upon by STS. How about those guild house decorations, or creating our own house? What ever happened to STS's promise that they had PL's level cap to 101 ready for us? Greed and money runs the world, and I cease to believe that PL is STS' "First Love".

To be honest, I don't really know where I'm taking this post to. All I know is that PL will not be receiving any more attention, and there's nothing we can do about it. So why am I still here? I love the community, and I love hopping on to the game only to be greeted by my entire guild and friends. For spending countless hours and money (which unfortunately, I regret at this point). I found this game when I was going through rough times, and it was my escape from reality. Now it's nothing more than a pile of junk, in my view. I wish we could just reset this game back to the 56 cap.

So what now? We try to enjoy the game as it is. It's silly of us to waste our time making these long posts that will, in the long run, get us nowhere. Sure, we might get a couple thanks here and there to let STS see that others are behind us. Also, don't get me wrong Dudetus & WhoIsThis, I love hearing you guys speak. I love hearing Apollo, CrimsonTider, and MysticalDream voicing their thoughts because they know how this game isn't what it used to be.

Sorry if I had some grammatical mistakes in there. It's easier for me to type things when they first pop into my head.

[loliamsocool]

Wow, this thread came back with a bang

[WhoIsThis]

Sorry for de-railing the discussion with my SWtOR example. I myself just love to whole Star Wars as a genre and I'm personally glad how they stepped away from their destruction and turned the game around from a total failure to an MMO with slight hope - but isn't Star Wars always about hope ?

It's not your fault. Speaking as a Star Wars fan, I've been incredibly disappointed by the conduct of Lucas Arts towards it's fans. The last "good" Star Wars game that I liked was Empire at War. Since then, we've seen mostly shallow games and SWTOR, which well, we'll have to wait and see what happens. I must concede though that I do not feel there is reason to be optimistic.

Yes, as mobile gaming is more casual, the consumer's opinions change more quickly and errors begin to show sooner than they show in PC games. But, this can also be an advantage to mobile game studios as the errors are shown more quickly they can correct to the errors more quickly. Too bad this hasn't been shown on STS side. And as u said long time ago, with every generation of new players, the average skill decreases. As STS can't keep hold of their oldest customers on PL (I started playing PL on November 2010 and recently quit) the average skill level decreases more rapidly. This affects mostly to the oldies who get frustrated with the new generation of players who don't know their roles within their classes and do not know the running/boss strategies etc. I myself took this issue in a thread some time ago (I'll post link to it in here as I find it). PL's current maps are more or less designed to be run on elixir. As the BSM (BlackSmoke Mountain) arrived I wasn't able to clear the first map of the new campaign with a random team as the first boss was too powerful for our unorganized team. It took me finally a guild run with Unity to clear the maps as the random games weren't able to kill the boss with me no matter how I tried to tell them the straregy. The daily blessings and daily elixir are the few main reasons I also blame the dramatic average skill drop as the newest players get accustomed to running with elixirs on the very first day.

Not too long ago, a player named Griffian posted a thorough page about how the community has fallen through the forums. He made a claim, similar to what WhoIsThis stated, that with new generations of players coming, the more decrease in skill and assistance there is. Then I ask myself: Why are we constantly blaming ourselves? When I say this, I'm merely playing devil's advocate, because the only thing I want with this game is for our rightfully deserved attention that STS promised us at the beginning. If there is to be no new content, no bug fixes, no changes to any great suggestions players have, then what can we expect? We're bound to start complaining and turning into trolls. I was banned on my Ipad through frustration, Dudetus was banned for sometime, and EFM. Face it guys, the only reason half of us are still here is because we've always loved the community. I have never found a more caring community than the Legend's series, but we are, and have always been on an exponential downfall.

The answer is that the environment of PL does not attract a hardcore playerbase. It's inevitable that the quality of player has declined. A while back, I was in a talk with some hardcore FPS gamers about Call of Duty - the massive Activision franchise. I noticed, there really isn't a professional gaming scene around that. Well there are many reasons (too elaborate to go on here), but part of the reason is the way the franchise was milked by Activision. While the new releases were pretty much expansions with little real content, they caused enough issues (in their changes) to get rid of the higher end players, yet at the same time too little to be a true sequel. The point - it can happen even with an AAA title. It all comes down to the decisions made. I should also mention the lack of a quality streaming system, which is an necessity.

If there are no changes well, what can we expect? I can give you an answer. The status quo - namely the slow withering away of veteran players. Once enough top players leave, all of that knowledge of PvP, of how to play, will wither away too. Because at some point, the critical mass of players needed to keep the endgame going will disappear.

The real issue is incentives. There is no real incentive to become a capable player that knows your class, the relative strengths and weaknesses of other classes, and how to PvP effectively anymore. This means several things - first that the ability to attract and retain new quality players is now non-existent. At the top, the skill cap disappears in favor of "luck based" PvP, which combined with growing frustration with the lack of progress and poor quality of new players leads existing top end players to go.

Eventually, you reach a point where what I call the "snowball effect" takes over, which is happening. What is the snowball effect? (Another one is the "domino effect").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_effect

To begin with - I realize that this post is going to sound somewhat elitist. Well, the answer is when you lose, a typical casual player, the impact is not huge. The reason why I say that is because they probably do not spend much on plat, they probably only have a few friends (who themselves are casual) who are affected, and their friends tend to be replaceable. When you lose a veteran player, or a top end player - the impact is much bigger.

1. First, the immediate impact is that they are among the smaller percentage of players who have put a lot of time, money, and perhaps most importantly, emotional commitment into the game.
2. Within the hardcore community, bonds and friendships tend to be deeper, and so the impact is more felt. In other words, to find new good friends takes weeks or months and they have to be of comparable skill.
3. PL does not have the huge playerbase that other games do - that means that losing a handful of top end players has an immediate impact on the state of PvP. Suddenly there are fewer players that have the skills to challenge remaining top players. Also, PvE runs become an exercise in frustration (at least where runs with not elixirs are concerned) and are more likely to fall apart due to the low quality of existing pugs.
4. Fewer people to teach new people how to play. This also means that there will not be as many people who are going to someday replace the current generation of hardcore players.
5. Other community impacts, such as fewer theorycrafters, fewer contributors, etc.

What it means is that when a hardcore player quits, there's less reason for the remaining players to stay. So a few more quit. Which leaves an even more empty community for the remaining. So even more quit. Eventually you end where we are today. At the same time, without the teaching, there is no replacement.

The forums are emblematic of the problem. Note the percentage of useful posts to say, flamers, trolls, has shown a progressive decline since mid-2011. That's because there's no good players to replace the ones that left, and the new generation has no desire to learn. I've hinted at this before, but the handful of hardcore players has a gradual effect on casual players who now have no direction, nobody to look up to, and see a game with no potential.

Compounding this problem, as more and more people quit, there is less and less incentive from a developer standpoint to put resources into bettering a game.

Seeing that there does seem to be some demand for this type of thread, I'll put together a big lengthy thread summarizing everything I have said, and recovery recommendations. Let me put it this way - were the bulk of the suggestions to be considered, realistically the best outcome would be that the game might be turned around in 6 months back to a state where it was in 2011. From there it could launch into something bigger.

[XghostzX]

Absolutely brilliant, man. I respect your words and thoughts a ton. If I may ask, why and how do you suppose PL might have a turn within the next six months? ^^^ (The last statement you made.)

[WhoIsThis]

I said it could turn around if major changes were implemented, not that it will. In fact, it probably won't because most (if any) of the feedback will not be implemented.

The most likely outcome is that the status quo continues.