Why Rangers Shouldn't Use Bows/Crossbows

**outcastranger** · 04-27-2013, 12:15 PM

Lately I have seen a trend going on in the game. There are now rangers with bows and crossbows. This is greatly defeating the purpose of the ranger. The ranger is meant to have skills that get you close to the enemy and take them out fast with high dps(damage per second)using a dagger or dual wields. The bow defeats the purpose of the ranger because a ranger with a bow is basically an archer with different skills. This just doesn't seem original or right. So yes the skills will get you close to the enemy, but the enemy will do more damage before you kill it! I do believe that if you are fighting a boss and want to stay at a distance so you dont get killed. However, I believe that playing a class the way it was meant to be played is the best and most productive way to insure a great character. I understand that some of you will disagree, that is fine. I am simply stating my opinion in a way that you may be able to connect with. Plz comment below

**grrims** · 04-30-2013, 07:05 PM

as i said in a different thread, foxes do lots of dmg but daggers/dual dont have enough base dmg to take down a mage before it nukes u with an fb. Also the bears amount of health, birds dodge, and mages ms makes daggers/duals almost impossible to actually get a kill with. Im talking about pvp there, in pve, daggers/duals r better

**outcastranger** · 05-01-2013, 05:38 AM

Im talking about PvE but you are definitely right about the PvP part

**Gragorak** · 05-01-2013, 07:34 AM

Problem is that dual wields and daggers are just too weak, almost useless lol. For dex fox it's just better to use bow. Using bow doesn't mean you can't get close to enemys. And in campaigns after nuri, str/dex fox with str set is a lot better that full dex fox anyways IMO, they are just too squishy at those campaigns.

**outcastranger** · 05-01-2013, 02:25 PM

Well... Quite simply... You're wrong. Dual wields and daggers do more damage than a bow in a given amount of time. Like grrims said above, for PvE you should use a dagger or dual wields.

**Bullllzzeye sexy** · 05-01-2013, 03:57 PM

Well i agree but some peeps have different opinion im not saying ur wrong....
but i i kinddove disagree because using a bow for fox is moslty ksing and u kust need to find ur way to hax...

**outcastranger** · 05-01-2013, 04:00 PM

Okay. Thanks for telling your opinion in a respectful manner. I appreciate all of the feedback from anyone and hope that more people reply.

**Bullllzzeye sexy** · 05-01-2013, 04:01 PM

Well i agree but some peeps have different opinion im not saying ur wrong....
but i i kinddove disagree because using a bow for fox is moslty ksing and u kust need to find ur way to hax...

**Bullllzzeye sexy** · 05-01-2013, 04:02 PM

whoops i thinked my computer just glitched... ignore the secound part lol

**outcastranger** · 05-01-2013, 04:16 PM

ok. haha i was confused.

**Gragorak** · 05-02-2013, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by outcastranger

Well... Quite simply... You're wrong. Dual wields and daggers do more damage than a bow in a given amount of time. Like grrims said above, for PvE you should use a dagger or dual wields.

Nope. It may look like that, because daggers/dual wields have higher attack speed =>higher DPS (dps shown in avatar page is just weapon damage divided by weapon speed. It doesn't take enemy armor into account).

Example (lvl 20 fox, 83 dex, 22 str, lvl 5 crafted armsman, 10 dmg ring):
(note: all weapon speeds are rounded to one decimal)

Bandit dual daggers (plat pack, best lvl 20 daggers): Damage 55-60, weapon speed 0.4s. DPS in avatar page is 150 ((55+60)/2/0.4, rounded down to first integer).
Lvl 20 momentarily forgotten bow: Damage: 117-162, weapon speed 0.9s. DPS in avatar page is 155 ((117+162)/2/0, rounded down to first integer).

So they seem to deal pretty same amount of damage in a unit of time, right? Well, against enemy with armor 25 (very easy basic enemy), the real damage dealt per secons is:

Dual daggers: 81.25 (((55+60)/2-25)/0.4).
Forgotten bow: 127.2 (((117+162)/2-25)/0.9).

Damage is more important than weapon speed (=DPS), because DPS doesn't take enemy's armor into account. Damage also increases skill damage. In higher levels there are better examples. End game dagger can have DPS ~700, while a weapon with DPS ~500 deals a lot more damage and has significantly higher skill damage. And basically, all dual wields suck. Daggers and talons can be good in some levels though.

Believing that DPS is more important than damage is pretty common misunderstanding for newer players.

**outcastranger** · 05-02-2013, 09:28 PM

O thx. This makes sense. Thanks for the information

I feel like a noob LOL

**sanchomundo** · 05-04-2013, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Gragorak

Damage is more important than weapon speed (=DPS), because DPS doesn't take enemy's armor into account. Damage also increases skill damage. In higher levels there are better examples. End game dagger can have DPS ~700, while a weapon with DPS ~500 deals a lot more damage and has significantly higher skill damage. And basically, all dual wields suck. Daggers and talons can be good in some levels though.

Believing that DPS is more important than damage is pretty common misunderstanding for newer players.

Thanks for the explanation. I have wondered about that.

I do agree with the general premise. If you want to play bow style, why not just use the bird? Bird skills seem ideal for that style. Of course, if you want to mix it up in close, why not use a bear? Foxes are stuck in between.

I am only a 33 fox, but so far, bosses are much easier to handle than mobs. Rage tonic and armor shredder with the combo attack does a nice job on the bosses I've seen so far.

I still feel like fox is the weakest class, and it's not close. But it is a fun class with all the darting and the cool looks. It's tough to solo levels. Tough to clear out mobs. Harder to come by good items. I think you have to live with that if you decide to go fox.

**outcastranger** · 05-06-2013, 05:45 AM

why is it the worst class. Mine is owning right now.

**Ghrowl** · 05-07-2013, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by sanchomundo

Thanks for the explanation. I have wondered about that.

I do agree with the general premise. If you want to play bow style, why not just use the bird? Bird skills seem ideal for that style. Of course, if you want to mix it up in close, why not use a bear? Foxes are stuck in between.

I am only a 33 fox, but so far, bosses are much easier to handle than mobs. Rage tonic and armor shredder with the combo attack does a nice job on the bosses I've seen so far.

I still feel like fox is the weakest class, and it's not close. But it is a fun class with all the darting and the cool looks. It's tough to solo levels. Tough to clear out mobs. Harder to come by good items. I think you have to live with that if you decide to go fox.

I think you are right about soloing with fox, it is tough. Mobs provide difficulty as fox is best at fighting single enemies. I think fox is great against boss tho and any single enemy, just mobs, especially ranged attack mobs, provide a tough time. The aoe moves fox has are ok but not enough to effectively clear mobs.

However, I disagree with your statement that fox is weakest class. I think rhino is. They seem to be somewhere between bear and mage but not as good at aoe as mage and cant keep aggro the way bear does. Fox is really fun to play as long as a bear is present. Playing fox has given me a special appreciation for bears. The way I see it, is they hold aggro and I kill everything, especially boss.

Just my opinions though.

**sanchomundo** · 05-08-2013, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ghrowl

However, I disagree with your statement that fox is weakest class. I think rhino is. They seem to be somewhere between bear and mage but not as good at aoe as mage and cant keep aggro the way bear does. Fox is really fun to play as long as a bear is present. Playing fox has given me a special appreciation for bears. The way I see it, is they hold aggro and I kill everything, especially boss.

Just my opinions though.

You are probably right. The two hybrid classes are kind of in no man's land. If you want to get up close and person, just use a bear.

I am level 43 now, still consider myself a noob, though I have my moments. What you said about playing with a good bear is true. When I end up in a group, I'm always happy to see a good bear or mage. I don't think anyone seems particularly excited to play with a hawk, fox, or rhino. Not that there aren't killer hawks, foxes, and rhinos out there - they just aren't as essential to mission success.

**outcastranger** · 05-08-2013, 03:59 PM

That makes sense

**elsmere** · 06-09-2013, 11:06 AM

yeah hawks are more of a personal skill. if you always loved em youll be a dominator. but fox is just a class that i believe had no time and effort like the others. seems thrown together and sloppy.

**Wendellism** · 06-09-2013, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ghrowl

I think you are right about soloing with fox, it is tough. Mobs provide difficulty as fox is best at fighting single enemies. I think fox is great against boss tho and any single enemy, just mobs, especially ranged attack mobs, provide a tough time. The aoe moves fox has are ok but not enough to effectively clear mobs.

However, I disagree with your statement that fox is weakest class. I think rhino is. They seem to be somewhere between bear and mage but not as good at aoe as mage and cant keep aggro the way bear does. Fox is really fun to play as long as a bear is present. Playing fox has given me a special appreciation for bears. The way I see it, is they hold aggro and I kill everything, especially boss.

Just my opinions though.

The thing is, had foxes been granted dual blades or daggers in endgame, they would have the potential to become next to OP compared to the birds, as they have 2 dash skills, 2 known self combos found so far, and has spammable Evasion to top it off.

However, after trying out with a fox myself, I think it is safe to say that playing with a ranged weapon for a fox should also be recommended, since I could dash about and switch targets at will. A ranged weapon also allows me to aim my Poison Darts well as it sort of acts like a 3rd player crosshair.

**Gragorak** · 06-10-2013, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Wendellism

The thing is, had foxes been granted dual blades or daggers in endgame, they would have the potential to become next to OP compared to the birds, as they have 2 dash skills, 2 known self combos found so far, and has spammable Evasion to top it off.

However, after trying out with a fox myself, I think it is safe to say that playing with a ranged weapon for a fox should also be recommended, since I could dash about and switch targets at will. A ranged weapon also allows me to aim my Poison Darts well as it sort of acts like a 3rd player crosshair.

How foxes would suddenly become op if they got one handed weapons with crappy damage? And talons are pretty much daggers with range btw, but still and foxes are not op.