Juggernaut Change Discussion

[Carapace]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

[Skvll]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

Everyone is still wondering if the dev team is keeping the duration of jugg the same.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

This seems better from previous suggestion
When can we expect these changes in game? And did you guys had a thought on extra long Cooldown period?

[Froxanthar]

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

Increase the threshold from 25% to 50% and the chance from 50% to 65% if charged.

Decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds please.

[Rockingtigertiger Tiger]

I'm a tank and I'm saying leave aim shot alone.. I hate nerfing and to be honest we don't want to to make any toon weaker but match them in strength and skills.. "One time use skill!!!!" Aim shot and NOX bolt CD 3sec jug last about 4-5 if no break taking heavy damage for the duration of 40 sec aim shot and NOx rain on you...

I agree with rust gun 45 sec cool down down is Way too much long cool down period ; Sts plss adjust the cool down of jugger !! and rest jugger is still good 😟

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[Jazzi]

This thread and people keeping on asking for more and more reminds me of the nekro buff thread

[xsilentninjax]

Doesn't mean if this pet IRONBITE(gives 600 armor) would be OP for twinks?

[Dex Scene]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

This is fine but also keep the jugg's health buff scaled with level. Warriors are very strong in low levels' pvp already. And the jugg's changes you are planning has the most effects on pvp. I thought it was going to be a pve buffs.

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[soon]

Playing with PvE warrior, I'm missing the increased damage that vengeful blood gives me. I think the PvP players use Horn, Juggernaut and two attack skills. In this case, it would be better to increase strength, instead of increasing health? It does not help the increased resistance for a few seconds, if I can not damage.


Again. If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?

[Dex Scene]

Playing with PvE warrior, I'm missing the increased damage that vengeful blood gives me. I think the PvP players use Horn, Juggernaut and two attack skills. In this case, it would be better to increase strength, instead of increasing health? It does not help the increased resistance for a few seconds, if I can not damage.


Again. If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?

^ this is So true.

@Cara, People hardly use Jugg in pve now. They recently have the Rally cry in their skill specs. people even use 4 attacks in non elite pve maps. Iam not here to start jugg/vb which is better or 'No healing warriors' don't know the class mechanisms arguments but JUGG is rather a pvp oriented skill.

I know Jugg needs to be fixed but don't just think about JUGG when you are trying to buff the warriors. If all the warrior buff planning goes only around Jugg, warriors will be imposible to kill in pvp.
Rather just fix the jug's self heal from 40% hp (which is 25% atm) and scale the hp buffs from JUGG and VB according to the levels and think about giving warriors some PVE-Only abilities.
Give a class bonus when a party has all the 3 classes.

[Oezheasate]

^ this is So true.

@Cara, People hardly use Jugg in pve now. They recently have the Rally cry in their skill specs. people even use 4 attacks in non elite pve maps. Iam not here to start jugg/vb which is better or 'No healing warriors' don't know the class mechanisms arguments but JUGG is rather a pvp oriented skill.

I know Jugg needs to be fixed but don't just think about JUGG when you are trying to buff the warriors. If all the warrior buff planning goes only around Jugg, warriors will be imposible to kill in pvp.
Rather just fix the jug's self heal from 40% hp (which is 25% atm) and scale the hp buffs from JUGG and VB according to the levels and think about giving warriors some PVE-Only abilities.
Give a class bonus when a party has all the 3 classes.

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.

[Dex Scene]

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.

I have all endgame classes so Iam not saying out of an imagination.
I didn't say warriors are unkillable atm. But if jugg gets all the buffs and then self heal at 50% below hp they just wont get below 50% hp and imagine what will happen in twink levels.
I suggest go make a twink warriors and come reply me here.

[Kakashis]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

As long as warriors don't get killed from the a charged Aimed shot when under jug would help that class tremendously. Even at 50% chance to heal, I think they would still die if it doesn't proc fast enough which is often the case now. I also think that the cool down of this skill is ridiculously long and by the next time it's actually usable, I'm already struggling to survive on a defensive build too!

At twink, the issue was that 500hp was too op, but at levels 30+ 500hp initial boost isn't the issue and it's the speed of the self healing + 25% being too low. Should the new 40% be more effective, this skills cool down time needs to decrease by a few factors. When I actually survive some barrage of combos, I'm often finding that I have no more healing options and die as well. Heck, Nekro AA is a shorter CD than this basic skill. HOR or VB cool down times would be much more appropriate to at least give this skill a proper comeback.

[Killian229]

Non charge health boost from juggernaut needs to scale per level. switch charged jugg bonus from health to damage(not dps) boost(not damage%).or deflect damage!nn for warriors to stick around for so long if we CANNOT DO NEARLY ENOUGH DAMAGE.look at end game character stats.The differance in health between characters and damage done by alot of mobs,does not justify adding health to warriors.do some math people...warrior screwed hard and the Rouge (strongest single target damage character by far)gets a debuff to use every few seconds(which will always win,oh yeah,highest crit/dodge too). How can you think adding some more health or armor is going to fix a warrior.give us dodge,try DR,Thorns,weapon damage,something to work with!got to remember in a pvp situation you will only use this skill once with current CD.Warriors are light years away from op in PvE.A warrior is the heart of war,every army needs Warriors.Warriors can do DAMAGE,promise.

Immune to debuff would be OK,maybe..you guys need a test server(donate or veterans status to test for you).Don't let my anger fool you,I was obsessed with pl!

Fyi I always liked mage best Warriors second(majority of games)

[Pedgon]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

YES! That is exactly what I said about Second Wind, thank you carapace!

With the other suggestions you propose, it seems that we will finally have juggernaut like it was supposed to be!

[Pedgon]

Increase the threshold from 25% to 50% and the chance from 50% to 65% if charged.

Decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds please.

Let's not exaggerate, please! With the other changes to juggernaut, I don't think we need such an OP "Second Wind" upgrade like you propose. The threshold from 25% to 40% with a 50% chance to proc is enough.

About cooldown, I totally agree..the 45 sec cd is ridiculous..30-35 would be fair/necessary, and like I said before, we will still have the longest cooldown in game. The duration of juggernaut should NOT be changed.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

About cooldown, I totally agree..the 45 sec cd is ridiculous..30-35 would be fair/necessary, and like I said before, we will still have the longest cooldown in game. The duration of juggernaut should NOT be changed.

Agreed cd should be reduced but Duration shout NOT be changed!

[Pedgon]

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.


This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.


I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?


I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.


On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out, it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

Humm..I believe you just want to keep juggernaut as it is honestly! lol no comments..

[Tatman]

This thread and people keeping on asking for more and more reminds me of the nekro buff thread

Yes, expect "nerf jugg" thread soon.

[Skvll]

@carapace if you was in a clash what skills would you use as a warrior? Considering the fact that all these armor debuffs constantly being reapplied. Making us warriors similar to a rog in terms of how much armor we have due to armor debuffs consistently due to pets and skills. Why are we (warriors) still getting crit like if we are a rog. Why don't you name change our class to a priest or healer class since the Devs gave us so many heals but we still die like paper. And we can't deal dmg like a rog but have armor like a rog? If we warrior choose to deal dmg we can't cause we worry about staying alive with jugg using our one attack skill and using veng to deal a little bit of dmg when in reality we all want to deal dmg with two attack skills and if we try to use 2 then we risk running dry on mana. So just name change our class to priest cause that's all we really are. We are not warriors cause it sure doesn't feel like it. Especially if we having a discussion on it....still. I want to feel like a warrior when I play the...power and survivability. I call for a name change of the warrior class to be called the Priest. I'm not bashing or thrashing this class that I play I want the Devs to open their eyes a little more and see our class.