Case study & facts: Mythic, Honor and Old school pvp!!!

[Waug]

*COMMUNITY THREAD* not for devs.

There's always a norm that old pvp was so good and now pvp is skill less. That's the things currently going as well that myth pvp is skillless / RNG, Honor is only old school pvp etc etc.

But is it really true? So here I present the case study and facts about Mythic / honor & Old school pvp. Not very in depth what I like to do but still should be some good content and I'd love to see those guys here in this thread to put valuable points.

I'll start by some myths :

Myth : PvP now a days is totally RNG and totally dodge based.
Fact : Like PL pvp never had RNG factor? we had more RNG at places aka Miss factor then comes crit factor. We can agree about different purpose of different skills but our purpose here to talk about RNG only. Savage (66) bear had 80 + dodge if I remember properly then L77 mages would dodge upto 9 among 10 hits. Demm hardly rng was any topic back then yet there's a dodge cap in place currently.
If PL pvp is skillless now a days due to RNG factor then it never been skill based pvp.

Myth (one of the biggest and everyone promoting this one) : Honor pvp is like old school pvp and mythic pvp is few hits skillless pvp.
Let's talk about facts :
By honor I'm referring L100 pvp not elite neither any other level honor because that's what people plays. We call old school pvp since 51 till few more caps and anything below that is twink as it always has been.

Surprisingly if you take it like that, IT TAKES ALMOST SAME NUMBER OF SKILLS TO KILL one dex bird just like old school L51, L71, L61 etc lets say 66 phoenix birds would take bit less skills and actually dex birds never takes one full combo including cruel blast to kill another dex bird until late talon ages and which got most tanky at L100 talon pvp. (I'm taking birds here for an example) If someone wanna disagree, I can still link some of my old videos here to watch again. Similarly it takes similar number of skills to kill mages and even bears unless you take those 90+ dodge bears or high tanky bear phases but that's not classic pvp again.

So now tell me, which one is old school pvp? L100 talon pvp or L100 honor pvp where birds are even more tanky than L100 talon birds. If you say that, it better suits you that's okey but if you say that honor is old school pvp, then nope it's not it's way far from that. Here's one old post GCD era L51 pvp just to show the real OG pvp looks like -



Honor : Even dex birds are tanky as hell
Old school : Classic pvp, birds kills fast die fast being a nuke class
Mythical : Holds the norm of classic pvp

Honor : Weightage on bear is extremely huge in a 3v3 / 2v2
Old school : Bears always valuable but not un-killable when team is nearby like honor
Mythical : Still valuable for a team

Honor : Mages are as good as tank while ms on, MS timing is like everything die or tank.
Old school : Kite, nuke MS timing and heal everything has weightages.
Mythical : MS is bit less important than classic but kite nuke heal everything has weightages

Honor : One heal re-fill all of the team's HP
Old school : No thank you, classic mode doesn't let you decide the whole team is full or almost dead by a mage
Mythical : Support is almost as good as classic

Honor : Auto damage is negligible, negative stats upon debuff and blah blah (out of PL pvp)
Old school : *cough* what are those things
Mythical : Some debuffs plays less role yet auto hit damage and skill damage are comparable as classic

So instead of having such solid and basic differences how come honor can be comparable with classic pl pvp just because there's little bit less dodge? and having such huge similarities mythical being referred as like that? Time to change the perspective?

Morale of the story : If you could take Super tanky bears with 80-90+ dodge, if you could take super tanky pallies, if you could take L77 mages with a dodge chance of 9/10 and Phoenix birds era and still refer them as classic pvp, myth is way better ONLY exception that what I always says Rhinos /foxes broken/buggy.

[holdmytalons]

The problem with mythic is its high damage and ridiculously low health and armor and honor isnt close to og pvp lol

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[afroSamuraii]

The problem with mythic is its high damage and ridiculously low health and armor and honor isnt close to og pvp lol

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I agree with you.

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[Dolloway]

I disagree with your assessment and don't think it reflects true Honor pvp.

Birds can die incredibly fast in team fights if they don't know what they're doing (proper use of blind, kiting, etc.). I don't see them being as incredibly tanky as you're saying. They're not comparable to level 100 hardlight talon birds at all in my opinion. Much less tanky.

Mages also do not heal in one skill. It takes several heals to heal the team back to full...

Bears seem most comparable to level 61 bears with Orlok.

All three og classes seem to be very valuable in team fights. If you don't have a bear who can counter the other bear's hs and pulls and control well, you may lose. If your bird isn't blinding and breaking ms, you may lose. If your mage isn't properly healing debuffs, you may lose. It isn't just one class that needs to know their role, but all three.

For reference, my image of 'classic pvp' is 56-66. Anything after that was meh in my opinion and anything before that was pre-GCD (global cooldown). There were some highlights after 66, but some really bad points as well.

Anyway, you have not changed my mind. I do not enjoy Mythic pvp because the health and armor values are too low compared to the high damage. Because of this, knowing one's class role seems to be negligible compared to other levels of endgame pvp in the past.

What about Mythic pvp makes it seem comparable to 'classic pvp'? There are so many differences. Just a few off the top of my head:

- Crit is 100% while buffed and nearly 100% while unbuffed, making skills like focus almost completely useless. Crit was nowhere near 100% in the past.

- Dmg is so high that certain offensive buffs are almost completely useless. Dmg buffs were always needed in fights in past pvp.

- Mana Shield is almost instantly drained when you cast it and an enemy hits you, unlike in the past where it could withstand several hits.

- Heals are wonky and casting one will heal something like 1000 health and then ticks of like 300 for a few seconds. Heals were never like this in the past - they healed a single amount and then for classes such as bird and bear, provided an h/s buff that lasted for a few seconds.

- Hit% is so ridiculously high that skills like blind, hellscream, nightmare, etc. do not do anything to affect the outcome of the fight. The debuff is almost useless. Debuffs and timing them in 'classic pvp' was essential to winning fights.

- What's the health on Mythic sets compared to the h/s? It's roughly 10,000 health and 70 h/s or something like that. It takes nearly ~140 seconds to regain full health, whereas in 'classic pvp', let's say there was 500 health and 25 h/s, so you would regain health in 20 seconds or so. A huge difference.

If you like Mythic pvp, then fine. But trying to compare it to 'classic pvp' in any meaningful way seems silly.

You're free to play any pvp you want to. Cinco created Honor pvp so that players would have something to play that doesn't have enchants, is practically free to play, and is different than Elite and Mythic pvp. If you like playing Mythic, then go ahead and play it. If you enjoy playing Honor, then feel free to play that. Cinco has stated that he will likely create more Honor sets and these sets will likely be comparable to endgame sets of the past.

The great thing about endgame right now is that there are three (Mythic, Elite Honor, Honor) sets or four (if you include 110 Elite sets as some only enjoy playing pvp with those) sets that you can play pvp with. This will likely expand in the future and we might be looking at 5, 6, maybe 7 sets of pvp gear that we can all use and play with to fit our likes. You don't have to like Mythic pvp and likewise, you don't have to enjoy playing Honor or even Elite Honor.

Play what you want. You won't convince Mythic-only pvpers that Honor is good if they don't enjoy it and likewise, you won't convince Honor-only pvpers that Mythic is good if they don't care for it.

[MageFFA]

*COMMUNITY THREAD* not for devs.

There's always a norm that old pvp was so good and now pvp is skill less. That's the things currently going as well that myth pvp is skillless / RNG, Honor is only old school pvp etc etc.

But is it really true? So here I present the case study and facts about Mythic / honor & Old school pvp. Not very in depth what I like to do but still should be some good content and I'd love to see those guys here in this thread to put valuable points.

I'll start by some myths :

Myth : PvP now a days is totally RNG and totally dodge based.
Fact : Like PL pvp never had RNG factor? we had more RNG at places aka Miss factor then comes crit factor. We can agree about different purpose of different skills but our purpose here to talk about RNG only. Savage (66) bear had 80 + dodge if I remember properly then L77 mages would dodge upto 9 among 10 hits. Demm hardly rng was any topic back then yet there's a dodge cap in place currently.
If PL pvp is skillless now a days due to RNG factor then it never been skill based pvp.

Myth (one of the biggest and everyone promoting this one) : Honor pvp is like old school pvp and mythic pvp is few hits skillless pvp.
Let's talk about facts :
By honor I'm referring L100 pvp not elite neither any other level honor because that's what people plays. We call old school pvp since 51 till few more caps and anything below that is twink as it always has been.

Surprisingly if you take it like that, IT TAKES ALMOST SAME NUMBER OF SKILLS TO KILL one dex bird just like old school L51, L71, L61 etc lets say 66 phoenix birds would take bit less skills and actually dex birds never takes one full combo including cruel blast to kill another dex bird until late talon ages and which got most tanky at L100 talon pvp. (I'm taking birds here for an example) If someone wanna disagree, I can still link some of my old videos here to watch again. Similarly it takes similar number of skills to kill mages and even bears unless you take those 90+ dodge bears or high tanky bear phases but that's not classic pvp again.

So now tell me, which one is old school pvp? L100 talon pvp or L100 honor pvp where birds are even more tanky than L100 talon birds. If you say that, it better suits you that's okey but if you say that honor is old school pvp, then nope it's not it's way far from that.


Honor : Even dex birds are tanky as hell
Old school : Classic pvp, birds kills fast die fast being a nuke class
Mythical : Holds the norm of classic pvp

Honor : Weightage on bear is extremely huge in a 3v3 / 2v2
Old school : Bears always valuable but not un-killable when team is nearby like honor
Mythical : Still valuable for a team

Honor : Mages are as good as tank while ms on, MS timing is like everything die or tank.
Old school : Kite, nuke MS timing and heal everything has weightages.
Mythical : MS is bit less important than classic but kite nuke heal everything has weightages

Honor : One heal re-fill all of the team's HP
Old school : No thank you, classic mode doesn't let you decide the whole team is full or almost dead by a mage
Mythical : Support is almost as good as classic

Honor : Auto damage is negligible, negative stats upon debuff and blah blah (out of PL pvp)
Old school : *cough* what are those things
Mythical : Some debuffs plays less role yet auto hit damage and skill damage are comparable as classic

So instead of having such solid and basic differences how come honor can be comparable with classic pl pvp just because there's little bit less dodge? and having such huge similarities mythical being referred as like that? Time to change the perspective?

Morale of the story : If you could take Super tanky bears with 80-90+ dodge, if you could take super tanky pallies, if you could take L77 mages with a dodge chance of 9/10 and Phoenix birds era and still refer them as classic pvp, myth is way better ONLY exception that what I always says Rhinos /foxes broken/buggy.

The problem with regular PvP, Elite and Myth, is that there is a gigantic lack of debuffs. CB does nothing to effect damage and HS is useless since everyone's hit exceeds how much hit is deducted. This promotes bad gameplay, which is why bears can only beck stomp. Take a look at any bear fight and tell me exactly where the skill is in it? Myth or Elite. It's all the same, beck stomp sms kite and 2 minutes later someone dies. That's boring. I can't say much for team fights but if i blind a str bear then i want it to work. If I'm a Str bear i DO NOT WANT to get 1 shotted regardless if it's 1 or a full team.

As for Honor, to call it a direct replica of Twink/Old School PvP is wrong. 100 Honor is entirely different from any cap I've ever played. Bears being tanky enough to hold off a full team for a solid 10+ seconds is nothing I've ever played back then. I use to do 76 fiery mage. Yeah birds was a bane to my existence but in no way was i ever getting 10-0ed/11-0ed. At least i could fight back to win. It's not even comparable to L.71 PvP either. 1 blind is the end for a mage and the 13 meter talon doesn't help. Also PvP was never limited to strictly combos. We always had the creative ability to setup our own combinations to grant a kill. If I'm kiting another bird and out ranging him at 12 meters then i do not expect to NOT deal damage and only get 1 shotted by a lucky break root shatter blast. If i do decide to combo you step for step i should not have damage fluctuate to have me dealing only 70 crit while you nuke me for 200.

I see what you're saying though.

[Tpfelblatt]

I want to start by saying that in my opinion it is always terrible to argue about multiple eras and realms of PvP at once, while talking about multiple aspekts of PvP, then sprinkling something of every one of the five classes in there. The timeline is ten (10!!!!) years. A lot has changed. Including players. There is also something called nostalgia, which s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ always distorts memory. This always ends in a sludge of nothing where nobody gains anything.

So without further ado, let me add some of my thoughts to said sludge.

I agree with the RNG portion of your post. PL has always been inherently RNG based. Every weapon (exept torch) and most skills have a minmum-maximum value. RNG right there. Most stats have RNG incorporated in them. RNG isn't inversely proportional to player skill. It is completely seperate and should always be talked about as a seperate factor.

My understanding of Mythic vs Honor is this. You need to press skills as fast as possible and you have to know ranges. If you play FFA you want to know some basic cooldowns of your teammates or enemys skills, e.g. taunt is 7.5s, "I should wait for it to come up again." or "He missed I can go in".

In Honor PvP you also want to know what the debuffs do and how long they last. Same for Buffs. And fight with that information in mind.

The only debuff that matters in Mythic is long range dodge debuff. (Bird and Rhino)

In my opninion you need to have a basic understanding of every class if you want to compete. In Honor more so than in Mythic, because some skills just don't have any or less impact on the gameplay. And in FFA with multiple unique classes, knowledge of other classes capabilities is naturally more crucial, than in 1v1s.

My critique on Mythic PvP would also be that some skills are just pointless. It's not only debuffs. It is close range (3m) skills AND debuffs.

@Dolloway: There was a Patch that added H/s to Mythic sets in PvP (not sure if also on Elite). On my fox I have 9.7k HP with 248 H/s. It takes 39 seconds to full HP from 1Hp. Not quite 140s. Not really 20s either.


The most important aspekt of PvP is the enjoyment. I started in 2012 so idk about what happened before that. I liked 76 PvP. I loved 77 PvP. Mainly because there were so many weapon combos. I loved how they would proc and how it looked. It was really, really fun. *Knockback*, *Slam*, *Buried*, SHRED*

[plpr]

Being a leaderboard kill chaser who likes fast 2 skill second long fights I understand this thread now. It’s irrelevant in terms of skill. You can’t compare the two In terms of skill. In honor every skill matters vs every class team fights or solo. I always have wondered why there are so few advocates of mythic and auto pvp. Now it’s so simple to see. And to see why so many people prefer honor over it. Because it is pure skill.


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[Waug]

Being a leaderboard kill chaser who likes fast 2 skill second long fights I understand this thread now. It’s irrelevant in terms of skill. You can’t compare the two In terms of skill. In honor every skill matters vs every class team fights or solo. I always have wondered why there are so few advocates of mythic and auto pvp. Now it’s so simple to see. And to see why so many people prefer honor over it. Because it is pure skill.


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I havn't read other long posts yet, ill do when I'll have time soon and reply them.
I already stated in my main post and I stat that again I don't have problem until u call honor pvp is oldscool / classic which is absolutely wrong. The points are already mentioned why.

Secondly if you're trying to get personal lol. Then you should know I used different toons for same lvl instead of my main and many toons as well in the past. Combining all would made total kill count pretty much out of ur imagination. Morale of the story doesn't matter u like it not, I never chase LB, I enjoy doing pvp. It just people judge things by their own perspective.

And don't make me tell the truth of ppl when their kill count got sky rocketed during the period of "free to join any level pvp" would u be able to hear the fact? But I won't bcz IDC in these stupid things.

[Waug]

I want you guys to watch a very old video


L51 Post GCD era, all my videos are post GCD era. Surprisingly enough if I post a video of current myth pvp, there hardly be any difference other than what is going inside in terms of buff / debuff /rng etc coming that to latter.

Now if anyone says, I couldn't kill that fast at that time then probably i'll have to take credit of teaching fast fingers post GCD , some players are pretty fast now, fair enough they have practiced for so long. L50, 51, 60, 61 you just name it, CLASSIC PVP was like that all the time only except where sometimes bears gone super tanky, sometimes pallies and sometime some classes or stats gone extreme level etc etc.

About buff debuffs and stats that were getting either obsolete or overwhelming, I was one to voice for it on forums since very very long, no body would talk about these matter at that time. So I'm fully aware that and also mentioned in my post, in endgame buffs and debuffs have less role or say have less impact and then take "miss" that been long gone for most of the part, it's better to do 100% crit every class rather than more rng and way better than honor doing weird crit and not crit damages. Heals stands in quite good way, unlike HP regen, it does different way but pretty much close what we had or need.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that play this or that, why would I need that, hands down mythic is more active than honor and if there were no honor tourney, only restoration kept that alive none else instead of the fact that the amount of effort it take to get the gear and then enchant burden.

In honor some buff debuffs plays greater role and we have bit less dodge, that's what I am not denying but then there comes negative stats, honor stats are so low that, after getting debuffed they get really negative, lets say you have 85 as armor after buff, one break -54, if you can stack it with another break -54 then if shatter gets it more negative. What's the point? most of the debuffs even from one single opponent can get most of stats into negative value not just armor. That explain why honor behave weirdly?

Ok let's get over it, ya birds die fast if you 3 players attacking him lol, ok that should be but how come that justify birds weak, if 3 opponent target one bear at any classic pvp stages, even bear should die, we did it many times even in 2v2, where bears were even stronger not in 110 pvp.
Fact is honor bird is tankier than L100 talon bird and far far far far far tanky than classic pvp non talon dex bird (ok all those "far" are just to make it dramatic)
Bears wont die in 1v1 even after few a-z skills with proper combo, says it why it have extreme weightage in 3v3 ofc u can ignore them and kill rest then if u get em alone kill em, come on we know that we learn that in basic school, no? Just like Myth pvp mages MS is pretty weak even compared to classic pvp, honor MS makes em tank unlike oldschool.

Finally my purpose is not say honor skill less that I never said but what I'm trying to say is fully explained in my main post.

[CrimsonTider]

So, in the OP, it states "moderators, please don't read", yet, my post was taken down for being spot on?

OP is, and always has been, a troll without any actual factual analysis on subjects posted. He states this thread is a "case study", when, in fact, there is zero true evidence to support his claims. No hypothesis, no theory, no scientific method to support his claim. The rebuttal posts in the thread have the only supporting facts to supply true evidence for what the OP is proposing.

In the end, the OP is nothing but opinion based. Nothing wrong with calling a spade, "a spade."

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[Dexteritys]

Honor is comparable to classic PvP because it isn't sporadic two shot-kills, and because it takes a fair amount of skill to excel in. On top of that, debuff timing is actually necessary to get kills in solos and team fights. None of this matters in Mythic PvP because debuffs are literally useless because of disproportionate stats. The only thing that matters in Mythic PvP is who lands their damage abilities first (blast, fire, etc), lol.

Maybe one day new gear will recreate the feel of "classic PvP," but until then, honor is close enough for what it is.

As for a comparison between the two, it's apples and oranges. Mythic PvP feels like PvE versus a player opponent - you die so fast and there's no need for perfectly timed combos. It's definitely not comparable to honor, let alone anything of the past.

[Waug]

Honor is comparable to classic PvP because it isn't sporadic two shot-kills, and because it takes a fair amount of skill to excel in. On top of that, debuff timing is actually necessary to get kills in solos and team fights. None of this matters in Mythic PvP because debuffs are literally useless because of disproportionate stats. The only thing that matters in Mythic PvP is who lands their damage abilities first (blast, fire, etc), lol.

Maybe one day new gear will recreate the feel of "classic PvP," but until then, honor is close enough for what it is.

As for as a comparison between the two, it's apples and oranges. Mythic PvP feels like PvE versus a player opponent - you die so fast and there's no need for perfectly timed combos. It's definitely not comparable to honor, let alone anything of the past.

Just because you get way more time to kill in honor doesn't make it old school rather opposite and can make it ur dream pvp maybe but not classic .

[Dexteritys]

Just because you get way more time to kill in honor doesn't make it old school rather opposite and can make it ur dream pvp maybe but not classic .

Slow-pace doesn't necessarily reflect "classic pvp," but in the same way, nor do two skill mythic kills. The height of PL's PvP was quite fast-paced in comparison to other games, and perhaps that's why it was so addicting. However, just because it was fast-paced doesn't mean it was devoid of skill - I just think it's worth noting that Mythic PvP is too fast in comparison.

Honor is more about debuff timing than anything else, I'd even go as far as saying it's too slow in comparison to "classic PvP." However, in recent years, we've had fast-paced PvP with little to no skill required, so honor is a nice middle-ground for now.

Mythic stats are currently absurdly disproportionate to debuffs, and until this is fixed, there won't be another cap with the feeling of "classic PvP..." at least honor is a step in the right direction.

However, I do agree: Honor is a lot slower than older caps - but that's better than imbalance.

[Waug]

My point is not to dishonor honor but I totally dis agree about projecting honor as og and projecting myth pvp far from og and how come honor is balanced again? balance from which angle? myth pvp also require full combo against almost anything which not 2h let say it's bow , so break it down myth pvp require few hit to kill bow /staff etc just like og pvp but need full combo to kill 1handed weapon sets, nothing wrong in it if something is wrong that is - mislead thats 100% norm now a days.

[MageFFA]

My point is not to dishonor honor but I totally dis agree about projecting honor as og and projecting myth pvp far from og and how come honor is balanced again? balance from which angle? myth pvp also require full combo against almost anything which not 2h let say it's bow , so break it down myth pvp require few hit to kill bow /staff etc just like og pvp but need full combo to kill 1handed weapon sets, nothing wrong in it if something is wrong that is - mislead thats 100% norm now a days.

Honor is not in any form OG PvP, that's true. Yet neither is mythic PvP. Honor is it's own identity as it shares nothing in common with any other cap or level range. Players aren't choosing to play it because there are daily tournaments, players choose play it because it's the only decent Option. Myth PvP can be summed up as a "what if everyone used hybrid dex in 71" which would explain the extreme degree of damage, caused by a combination of out of proportion damage/DPS and a lack of armor. If everyone is hybrid then debuffs play a minuscule role in PvP, which it does. HS at 110 effects other bears just as much as HS effected another 71 hybrid bear. CB does nothing to effect damage as both hybrid and Myth possess that to the extreme. Like Hybrid myth PvP has no armor which makes nuking even easier.

Now with all that said is it the only main cause for why players hold disdain for Myth? Absolutely not. The gear JUST became free and farmable for the player base. MONTHS AFTER THE CAP WAS RELEASED! If anything that should be the main reason nobody plays it. Who wants to spend 100m or a 100usd obtaining gear to endgame when you could just play the more cost efficient PvP zone for your time? Even then that's not the only reasons nobody wants to play it either.

The mere thought of Mythic/Elite PvP can easily be looked as a reskin 105 Cap. Like 105 Cap mythic shares the idiotic Set heal, which is really just a big exploit for rhinos. I can go on and on about the flaws of both Myth and Honor but that would be a month long thread.

[XghostzX]

I don't think we will ever truly be able to replicate "old-school PvP." Honor feels close enough, and frankly, I hope STS continues to prioritize honor PvP.

Endgame PvP can never be repaired with such blown-out stats. It's literally too big of a problem to fix; if you 'tweak' one class nowadays, it just results in a massive shift in class-power. So many skills are useless with ridiculous stats in dodge, hit percent, armor/dmg, etc. Cinco was very clever to implement honor arena, and I wouldn't be nearly as active if it wasn't here.

[Duckypowerz]

Honor is NOT old school pvp, myth is NOT old school pvp. Both feel completely different. Auto dmg is useless in honor while auto dmg is broken in myth. Both need adjustments imo to make them better. All this being said I play both styles even though I don’t enjoy them nearly as much as pvp pre chants. Both have many flaws but pvp always has and I’m sure we won’t see pvp as good as before again in pl’s future. It is what it is.

[Dexteritys]

I don't think we will ever truly be able to replicate "old-school PvP." Honor feels close enough, and frankly, I hope STS continues to prioritize honor PvP.

Endgame PvP can never be repaired with such blown-out stats. It's literally too big of a problem to fix; if you 'tweak' one class nowadays, it just results in a massive shift in class-power. So many skills are useless with ridiculous stats in dodge, hit percent, armor/dmg, etc. Cinco was very clever to implement honor arena, and I wouldn't be nearly as active if it wasn't here.

You understand.

[Waug]

LOL, I'm not saying myth pvp has no problem or like that, it has problems don't wanna repeat those things neither I'm saying it's 100% equivalent to to og pvp. But not that much in term of amount of skills required to kill something. Don't just go by the amount of damage myth set has, there are things to adjust that as well.

I can just show few more old videos to prove my point that it require similar number of skills to kill something either it be 2h weapon set or 1h weapon set.
I'll be happy with the fact that everyone agreed that honor is far from og. That's my point, I'm not just unhappy with honor never said that, ppl should definitely play it if they like and also happy there's another game mode name honor. I've just pointed out some flaws of honor for which reason it's far from OG pvp.