Ty Apollo, your an amazing person!
Ty Apollo, your an amazing person!
Very well said Apollo.
#23
Hey Apollo,
Thanks for taking the time to put this post together. I really appreciate it and am always impressed with the effort you put into the community. It shows how much you care for it and why you were chosen as a Guardian of Alterra oh so many months ago. Just fyi, I changed the thread title to remove the "non-biased" from it. You know, there is always a bias
Honestly guys, I feel just horrible about the situation. As the guy that Spacetime hired to manage their online communities, I feel like I've let both you, the players and the company that I love, down. You and I both know that without you, our dedicated players, our games wouldn't be what they are I thought I had done the work where I could be out on leave with our new baby and things would be fine. .
When I step back and look at it, the issue is changing a flat fee of content to a turnstile one. Our intent was to make the holiday content more accessible. In looking at last year's event and the Halloween content we wanted to make it easier for people to get into it, hence the change to have a lower up front price (2 Plat now, vs. 10 Plat previously). This content has always been optional for Platinum. It was last year, it is again this year. That doesn't change the you can play the entire rest of the game for free.
For me the biggest issue is when you say you feel a loss of trust with Spacetime over this. In retrospect, I think that we should have done a better job of telling our players that this change was coming and why so that you would always feel informed and cared for. I know that we have a lot of work to do to try and regain that trust.
Maybe the point of the Christmas event was not farming after all... :-)
Yay! Sam is back!
Thank you Sam! I really appreciate your activity with the forum community!
#27
Well, trying to get some time on the forums in around changing diapers and helping out my wife (she's recovering from her c-section... ouch!). We have more family coming in today to help around the house and I'll be back in the office late Monday.Originally Posted by Draocad
I hate to quote your entire post, but here goes.Hey Apollo,
Thanks for taking the time to put this post together. I really appreciate it and am always impressed with the effort you put into the community. It shows how much you care for it and why you were chosen as a Guardian of Alterra oh so many months ago. Just fyi, I changed the thread title to remove the "non-biased" from it. You know, there is always a bias
Honestly guys, I feel just horrible about the situation. As the guy that Spacetime hired to manage their online communities, I feel like I've let both you, the players and the company that I love, down. You and I both know that without you, our dedicated players, our games wouldn't be what they are I thought I had done the work where I could be out on leave with our new baby and things would be fine. .
When I step back and look at it, the issue is changing a flat fee of content to a turnstile one. Our intent was to make the holiday content more accessible. In looking at last year's event and the Halloween content we wanted to make it easier for people to get into it, hence the change to have a lower up front price (2 Plat now, vs. 10 Plat previously). This content has always been optional for Platinum. It was last year, it is again this year. That doesn't change the you can play the entire rest of the game for free.
For me the biggest issue is when you say you feel a loss of trust with Spacetime over this. In retrospect, I think that we should have done a better job of telling our players that this change was coming and why so that you would always feel informed and cared for. I know that we have a lot of work to do to try and regain that trust.
1. It is not the turnstile fee that ultimately bothers most of us. For starters, we know it is an optional side campaign. But come on, everyone wants to check out the Winter Festival, right? It was a smash hit last year. What bothers is us that the ticket is good for one boss/4 hours. We all know that farmers are going to kill bosses fast...many casual players want to run around the level first for a while, check it out, enjoy the sights, try to finish the quest, AND get a chance a while later to kill the boss and maybe get a cool drop. That was what I was doing initially the first couple of times I went into Winter Village. And then a 4x 66 joined, roared to the boss, soled, killed, left....leaving the other 4 (me and some 30-40s I was helping whack snowmen) missing out on a drop chance. You would have been far better served by either a) charging a flat fee for the content, or b) if you are really going to stick with the hated "ticket", and trust me it is hated by a lot of people...make an option for an hour, unlimited runs, for say 5p-10p in addition to the 2p per run. Everyone would be a winner, and although some people would still complain, I think it would be a fraction of what it is now.
2. Coldly dismissing your longtime players, deleting posts that were constructive from long-time vet forumers (I am not referring to some of the silly rage posts), and quashing/not addressing dissenting opinions are not how to keep your loyal long-time-paying players' trust. A lot of us are already wary and weary of the way the financial model is going, but hey, you are a business, we get that, and the items are optional. But when we start feeling like our opinions don't matter/are dismissed/are ignored on top of that, well...we see what is happening. People are quitting/leaving/going on hiatus. You will still succeed because many people are shoveling plat down their throats as evidenced by people are being 41 in SL already, and no one wishes you guys to NOT succeed, but human nature is what it is.
3. There is no denying, from most of our point of views, that Nuri's and Fang are very underhwelming creatively when compared to the Alien Oasis series, and even the Sewers, to some extent. When further compared to Voleria, we feel like we are spending our time and money on inferior product that has fallen behind on the STS creativity totem pole. We always appreciate new content, don't get me wrong. But if you guys took a bit more time to create another AO3/Voleria-caliber campaign for PL, you would make money hand over fist as well re-kindle some interest in PL, which has gotten somewhat stale.
Moog out.
p.s. hopefully the diaper situation is not too messy
Last edited by Moogerfooger; 12-18-2011 at 09:24 AM.
• Bring back the INNOVATION. SL has been getting the innovation, yet more players play PL. Thus, isn't PL the cash cow? Why is SL getting the creative campaigns then? Show both customers that you care. Don't make the PL side feel like they are funding SL.
OMG I just noticed that.
Perhaps they're just spending the extra creativity on SL to attract more players, I guess.
• Charging us for HOLIDAY content. STS, in just about any MMO, holidays are for getting together and giving. Even Macy's or big organizations give HUGE SALES on their items. It's about the community spirit. Have you guys lost sight about that?
Yes, this is a pretty boring Christmas to spend on PL without the Winter Event.
I think they should make it like 5 Platinum to get unlimited access or something, or just allow the whole thing for free on Christmas Day...(oh hey that's not a bad idea!;D)
This post means a lot to me.Hey Apollo,
Thanks for taking the time to put this post together. I really appreciate it and am always impressed with the effort you put into the community. It shows how much you care for it and why you were chosen as a Guardian of Alterra oh so many months ago. Just fyi, I changed the thread title to remove the "non-biased" from it. You know, there is always a bias
Honestly guys, I feel just horrible about the situation. As the guy that Spacetime hired to manage their online communities, I feel like I've let both you, the players and the company that I love, down. You and I both know that without you, our dedicated players, our games wouldn't be what they are I thought I had done the work where I could be out on leave with our new baby and things would be fine. .
When I step back and look at it, the issue is changing a flat fee of content to a turnstile one. Our intent was to make the holiday content more accessible. In looking at last year's event and the Halloween content we wanted to make it easier for people to get into it, hence the change to have a lower up front price (2 Plat now, vs. 10 Plat previously). This content has always been optional for Platinum. It was last year, it is again this year. That doesn't change the you can play the entire rest of the game for free.
For me the biggest issue is when you say you feel a loss of trust with Spacetime over this. In retrospect, I think that we should have done a better job of telling our players that this change was coming and why so that you would always feel informed and cared for. I know that we have a lot of work to do to try and regain that trust.
+1
#31
No worries on the quoting Moog. I return the favor
For point 1. We're trying something new. We appreciate those who took the time to provide constructive criticism. I don't know if we'll keep the for pay access scheme. Obviously there are things about it that can be improved. To reiterate, part of our intent was to lower the barrier of entry for people to get in (2 Plat up front vs. 10) to allow more people to see it.
Point 2. That is my fault for going on leave and not having better moderation in place. I thought I would have time to spend on the forums myself, but, as some parents out there can no doubt attest, trying to do work from the hospital or when you first bring your new little one home, is a bit unrealistic
Point 3. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I know Volaria is pretty darn cool, but I think you're selling the content short in Nuri's and Mt. Fang a bit short. The same design team that created Volaria did both Mt. Fang and Nuri's. I especially remember a bit of wow factor over Nuri's when it came out; I just think that the shine is off of it now as will invariably happen with Volaria. Also, just for perspective, we are running into technical limitations with Pocket Legends. There is a LOT there for PL now already and we run into size and space limitations when adding on to it (that we aren't hitting with Star Legends right now). That's why we currently are best served by re-using existing textures and audio assets (the boss sound effects, for example). We know we need to improve that if we want to continue to push what we can offer up.
Thanks, as always, for your input Moog!
No worries, Sam.....we know that real-life poop-machines aka newborns are priority #1
Just want to reiterate that if there were some different pay-for-access choices, such as a) 50p one-time b) 2p-per-run (dislike it, but it is an option) or c) 5-10p for unlimited per hour.... would keep most parties happy and also help you meet your business goals.
As far as part 3....I actually said "Holy ****" when I played through Voleria the first time (and dying a bunch of times due to those godawful sneaky mines, and saying "Why are there crosshairs on my chest? Hmmm? POWdead"). I understand about size limitations, I ran into that at my previous job sometimes. Other than some one-hit mob combos from a couple of the levels in Nuri's, I wasn't wowed and I don't think a lot fo other people were either, and even the one-hits were more annoying and sometimes unavoidable...that's not really creativity. Fang was much of the same. I think we want something with a "wow" factor to some extent....if you dudes created another Cyber-type quest series in a campaign again, that would be a step in the right direction and not require a vast increase in file size overall. I remember spending hours and hours playing getting Cyber for my three toons...more playing time by your player base will generally equate to increased sales, even if indirectly. Simply jacking up mob HP and having one hit bosses does not excite people. Cyber-type quests do, or some new angles to gameplay like the snipers/bunker hatches from Voleria.
Last edited by Moogerfooger; 12-18-2011 at 09:38 AM.
Sam, this is the first time I'm hearing about the technical limitations. With that in mind, I think I can be more understandable with the reusing of the content.
It raises the question though, what's keeping the size of PL from increasing? Is it the 3G factor?
Finally, on the bright side of moderation, I do like what Pandar has been doing. His response to the GOA thread was the first real response I've seen from moderation/development, and I found it very accommodating that he asked us what we expected, what we thought about it, etc.
That said, I personally think that having the content developers (maps, gear, mobs, character classes) interact directly to the community by being more forum-active would restore my confidence and trust into STS. It was mentioned in another thread, with the bear threads I've started as an example, that there was no response at all from moderation/development. If there were, I think it would give the impression to the players that we are still in mind and are being "cared" for. Basically, we just want attention
As always, wish you the best with your new family and happy holidays
#34
Initial load size for mobile users is the main limitation.
Okay - I said to myself that I wasn't gonna post for a couple of days, but this is totally new information for us and this is the only thread where any of the senior members have gotten an in depth response. To date, this has been the most detailed non-PM discussion that has been given from a dev.
The situation in SL appears to be okay (for now anyways as the campaign was well received). PL though is in crisis.
The point I think many of us are stressing is that we want greater disclosure about these sorts of things. I know that the Android market has a limitation (I don't know about iOS) regarding app sizes and to bypass, the best solution has been to move to the SD card.
One app has as much as 1 gb on the SD Card:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/01...-whopping-1gb/
Second, as Moog pointed out, I'm a bit unhappy that many of my posts were deleted. They were not rage posts and I took time to carefully think through what I said.
Third, I have proposed this one to Pandar, about the possibility of something where we can discuss in private and ideally, be frank with each other without fear of moderation, or any other retributions. Ideally, it would be with yourself, the PL dev team, a few of the mods, Justg (among the entire team at STS, I'd say his reputation has declined the most among the community), and a select group of members. I could prepare a list if possible of who I think should attend.
Right now I think you are at a critical point. What happens in the next few months (and perhaps the next couple of weeks) will decide whether or not many of us forum veterans choose to stay. Look at the comings and goings threads. These are veteran players we are talking about. They are not quitting voluntarily - they are quitting because they feel they have no alternative but to vote with their money because all else has failed.
Feel free to ask Pandar and the other moderators. Many of us through PMs have had some pretty frank conversations and you'll find among the senior members, there's a consensus that things are going down the gutter. There is also now the overwhelming perception that our voices no longer matter - we may have helped turn this game into what it is now, but with so many players, the senior members don't matter. We have been told otherwise, but actions always speak louder than words.
It's not the money from a few veterans (which at most will be a few thousand) that you need to worry about. It's the fact that in many ways, they are the pillars keeping everything up. If the veterans leave, then one of two things happens - a mass exodus or the quality of the community declines significantly because of what's left.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 12-18-2011 at 10:26 AM.
#36
RE: the size limitation. Yes, there are ways to work around it, but it's not simply done and our current tech doesn't include those workarounds. It's something that would be good for us to add, but right now we're working within our system's current framework.
symbioses vs parasitic
Amazing approach to a chaotic holiday hang up! Very well composed and neutral.
Im impressed. You voiced the community's point if view, pretty accurately I have been dealing with a lot of upset guild members, and we wanted to thank you for representing PL players and devs in this post, as we are all a part of this symbiotic relationship.
Let's please make every attempt from keeping the dev to player relationship from becoming, in any context: a parasitic relationship.
Thanks for your post!
Skeokateva
(Originally from SL Forums)
Guess I'll give my two cents on this matter and be constructive about it, since I'm normally clowning (due to the residuals of being bored half the time).
I just would like to start with that I'm pretty easily satisfied. My biggest issue with this game was from a few months ago, with the release of Slouch-O Productions, when I personally felt the game was getting too kiddie, and losing its "mature" vibe. Star Legends was starting to develop the same vibe as Pocket Legends, might I add this is why I didn't really get into PL was because I thought it felt too kiddie, and I made a long constructive post and to my surprise many agreed, some disagreed, but that's life. In the long run, I would like to think my post and the comments preceding for other dedicated players influenced STS in some shape, way, or form, in steering the game into its own direction, or should I say a "mature" direction, which I honestly think the masses of the players that play this game are "older" and would prefer a more mature vibe.
Has STS delivered? The past two content patches IMO have been amazing. They've had a "mature" feel to them and IMO things with a more mature vibe to them look "cooler". The content in Shipyard was great besides the commando set...lol, but even the Commando set had a "Mad Max" vibe to it. Now with the release of Voleria I couldn't be any happier with how the content turned out.
Anyways that's a bit off topic but lets get back to a lot of what has/is being argued in this post.
I honestly don't see where you're going with this? From the short time that I did try PL out, each instance, before they changed it, costed Platinum to play. I don't think there were THAT many complaints in the past, but I could be wrong, wrong to the point where there were a lot of complaints that STS decided to make the content free and refund the Platinum to those that had purchased it in the past. I think thats a pretty valiant thing to do. Why would you lose trust in your company over that? So with the release of the Holiday Winter Content they are sort of going back to the old ways. Its a mere 2 Platinum Per Instance. No where does that ring "I CAN'T ENJOY THE HOLIDAY CONTENT" anywhere. Enjoying the Holiday Content, assuming you can't purchase platinum, requires you to install a simple app and deleting it after. Which yields you 2-5 platinum. Obviously by those clicking on their free platinum offers STS makes money, but we aren't the only ones that have to eat. So they make .10 to .25 cents on your one app install, at least it was free for that person to experience "The New Holiday Content".Due to the platinum per instance, players have lost their trust in STS as a company.
What if they did offer a "One Time Buy" for the Holiday Content, that costed 10-15 platinum to enjoy. Then we complicate things to the point where those people that were willing to install one app now have to install 5 and now they aren't willing to do that. Now what happens, its even harder for the masses to enjoy the holiday content. I think in the long run the people that are affected by the 2 platinum per instance budget are the ones that expect to go in there and farm pinks and vanities in hopes to benefit themselves. Pretty selfish if you ask me, but then again this is just a matter of opinion. =)
The instance isn't ALL that anyways, 2 platinum to experience it one time isn't asking for much.
When PL recieved its content update, I had the opportunity to go back and Ebalere power leveled me from like level 20-30 or 35, I don't remember. I don't know the name of the instances (cause I don't play anymore). But I got to experience an Ice Level and a Swamp Level, and I was highly amazed by the "creativity" and "beauty" of these levels. So I can't really see what you mean by this. I was actually hoping they would incorporate something of the sort in the future for SL. Though you might be talking about the newer content in PL which I haven't experienced. I don't know how Mount Fang looks but I suppose if you made this above comment, it's no where near as extravegant as Voleria is.People at Pocket Legends are insulted because all of the creativity seems to be heading to the SL department.
Not much to say here. Only reason I haven't purchased more is because I still have a lot left over from my last purchase.People begin to boycott platinum purchases
There's always going to be someone complaining, this game could be PERFECT but there would always be someone that's not satisfied. Welcome to human nature. Why do you think I post half of the posts that I post on the forums now, because 90% of them are whiners who are not satisfied with something or people who want attention for reaching level cap (which I have no problem congratulating for their hard efforts). I figured I'd doctor up some photos and post random bogus stuff to make people laugh, because that's what this community is unfortunately missing, SOME LAUGHTER! All it is is complaining, complaining, complaining. And 90% of the crap people complaining about is not even worth complaining about. That doesn't go to say that some of the complaints that are constructively argued aren't good valid points.Much drama on the forums. Rants are not handled very well.
Sadly this is true, but I wouldn't put all the blame on STS for this. Guild Management Issues have lead and ended up to the departure of many great players as well.Many veterans/contributors to the game are quitting.
Can't comment on this too much either, as I do not know what happened, but with what I opened up with earlier, I voiced my opinion constructively and I also had that "concerned and displeased" tone within my post, yet STS still read and listened to what I had to say. Sam even ended up changing my title because it was so direct. I doubt STS totally ignores the posts that are made, and I doubt they just randomly go off and delete a post because they feel threatened. They more than likely have their reasons.Players are getting banned/getting infractions for voicing their opinions.
The platinum per instance was likely detrimental, as people would have likely spent more if they didn't feel like they were forced to.People are going to spend their Platinum how they feel regardless of the limitations. If someone really wants to experience something they are going to pay for it regardless, ex: RIVET. As your comment does hold some valid true behind it, as people might have spent more if they didn't feel like they wre forced to. STS no where has MADE any of us, FORCEFULLY purchase any of their products. We do that out of our own free will. As you might feel 2 platinum is too much for an instance, like I stated above, you don't have to pay a dime for it if you complete one of the free offers. Which once again boils down to STS is a Company and have to make a profit somewhere to actually keep this game free to us. I think what everyone forgets in the long run that the majority of this game IS FREE. They unfortunately expect EVERYTHING to be FREE.Players feel as if they need to be forced to pay platinum.
Sorry if I've upset anyone with my reply to this post, these are just my own opinions.
Thanks
-Rodvik
Last edited by Rodvik; 12-18-2011 at 10:54 AM.
Rodvik - 40 Engineer - Guy on the Couch in Infinite Union
Fouroneone - Pay It Forward
Rodvik here is a pretty good example of some of the newer players. To his credit, his post is very civil and well written - among the best I have seen from the newer players. This is not intended to be a derogatory post in any way.
Thoughts:
- Much lower expectations for new levels than we have
- The problem is that he/she is praising their past accomplishments, which were praiseworthy - the newest PL levels though have been entirely underwhelming and he/she has indicated that he/she has no played them
- Much easier to please, perhaps because he/she was not here during the prime of PL
- Assumes so far that all of the recent departures are due to guild issues - look in the coming and goings section; few are
SL is in fine shape right now, although there are issues as Parth mentioned so I suspect that most SL players will have no empathy with PL players predicament at the end game (assuming Rodvik's post is typical of what we can expect, and his post is much better worded than most).
As near the end of his post tells us, he doesn't realize yet what is happening behind the scenes.
The problem is that the we are being charged by the run. We are also being in many cases faced with heavy pressure to use elixirs. We veterans have all spent (or should I say invested) hundreds into the game each. In recent months, we have seen a poor return for our investment in PL. The problem is not that we are not willing to pay, it's that we aren't getting our money's worth.
2 plat x how many runs are we talking about here?
The big problem is not so much this winter festival as it is that it sets a precedent for what the future has to offer.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 12-18-2011 at 11:28 AM.
Sam, I don't think you let anyone down, I hope everyone understands the work it takes to update 2 games and working on a third game, lots of work I just don't buy much plat so I wasn't for the update because just to do a couple runs is 6-10 Platinum . Sam I think you are a great person I am so glad we ( Pocket Legends ) has a Dev who actually listens and replys there opinion . Check some other MMO's out, see how many Dev's you find that reply and actually care . I will always trust STS because things like this ( Sam talking to us ) make me feel that STS isn't in it just for the money like orher MMO's are, I think you really are a great Dev . Thank you STS for caring, I hope Pocket Legends ( and Star Legends ) Grow very big .
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