A True Team Capture the Flag game with its own LB

[Alrisaia]

So - here's a thought...

CTF is supposed to be a complete 'game' within the game right? where the 'winning' team scores 5 flags. This doesn’t seem to be the object of the CTF arena. I’m not sure if this was intentional or not, but… I propose a new CTF game – one that flagging is part of the game along with kills – and one that’s not based on individual results, rather team performance.

I propose having some sort leader board for Won:Lose ratio for CTF matches. I believe doing so would add more depth to the PVP space and beg players to spec differently and go into PVP from a different ‘team’ perspective.

It should be a timed match (countdown) from 10 or 15 minutes perhaps?
The map should lock for parties of players and require an even match of at least 3v3
Once the match starts – it’s 10 minutes of what the actual intent of Capture the Flag should be – players trying their hardest to ‘score’ points for their team not to score kills for their stats.

Points could be setup thusly:
Flag = 10
Kill = 1
Death = -1

Disconnected players should be able to rejoin the game.
Matches ending in a tie for points would have some sort of resolution based on the individual categories of score points (most flags, most kills, least deaths).
The map should be larger – to make flagging more difficult for organized teams
More environment obstacles would be welcome.


Players would work together in teams differently than they currently do.


anyway... just a thought :)

[Energizeric]

I posted a very nice idea to add stats for "team flags scored" and "teams flags allowed" for each player, so helping the team win would become priority. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to the idea.

[Drearivev]

I posted a very nice idea to add stats for "team flags scored" and "teams flags allowed" for each player, so helping the team win would become priority. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to the idea.
But how would the system know if you helped to score a flag, or helped to stop one?
I'd say what others have said plenty of times before: winning tokens, or something along those lines. Each member of the winning team gets 1 token, and each member of the losing team gets none. This could be a new stat added to all your ratios of kills and deaths called CTF: Wins and Losses or something like that.

[Alrisaia]

But how would the system know if you helped to score a flag, or helped to stop one?
I'd say what others have said plenty of times before: winning tokens, or something along those lines. Each member of the winning team gets 1 token, and each member of the losing team gets none. This could be a new stat added to all your ratios of kills and deaths called CTF: Wins and Losses or something like that.

With a setup like what Ener and I suggest - you wouldn't be tracking individual results. The results of the ‘match’ would be scored as an integer in either the ‘lost’ or ‘won’ category.

How many flags you get during the game and or prevent would and should remain irrelevant – this way it’s not anyone whining about how soandso always gets the flags… or bob loblaw always gets the kills… It’s a complete TEAM effort to WIN the match period.

[baddiva]

but still, the OP team will just stand and keep killing without flagging..

I also propose that team picking are better randomed or auto-balanced to better accomodate individual skills and builds who dont have formed a PVP team :)

and another idea to avoid OP team just kill farm is to applying some sort of "time check point" that will resets each time one team scored a flag. I guess this improvement could make someone undergeared more enjoying PVP than facing two options, 1. being called a leaver/coward/noob or 2. having their death point significantly increased in vain

Sent from my LG-P970 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

[Alrisaia]

but still, the OP team will just stand and keep killing without flagging..

I think you're still misunderstanding. Kills in this form of match should not count toward an individual’s 'kill count'. The ‘object’ of the game needs to stay focused on winning the match in order for a CTF game like this to be an effective ‘team game’.



I also propose that team picking are better randomed or auto-balanced to better accomodate individual skills and builds who dont have formed a PVP team :)

I can’t speak to this at all so I won’t



and another idea to avoid OP team just kill farm is to applying some sort of "time check point" that will resets each time one team scored a flag. I guess this improvement could make someone undergeared more enjoying PVP than facing two options, 1. being called a leaver/coward/noob or 2. having their death point significantly increased in vain


I’m not really sure I completely understand this statement. I really enjoyed PVP in some prior MMO games but the reason when reflecting back on it – was because teamworked mattered more than anything (including gear). If you had good teams, you were successful.

[Desperoto]

Thats why i play TDM... Ctf= full gangs that are standing in the middle of the map. When u use ribbit: Noob delete him!
When U gang a kill farmer: OMG noobs, 1v1
1v1= Running away
kill a 'pro' many times= 'ill remember u name when im farming u with my team'

[Pivot]

it should be like if you win you get a win point and if you loose you get a loose point for example player a wins 3 games and looses 2 games :)

[Taejo]

I like the idea, I'm just a little indecisive as to whether it's more efficient for STS to revamp the current CTF game or create an entirely new one. The only issue I see with creating a new one, is it doesn't remedy the current state of CTF PvP we see today. The problem with CTF is the flagging achievement. You can basically tie 90% of the threads concerning issues with PvP to this single achievement.

The major issue, of course, is it promotes "boosting". Roughly 70% of the games I've entered in the past few days are nothing but the bigger guilds boosting their flaggers by joining both teams and stalemating the fight. When you try engage in combat, the immature language pours out and they start to pick on you because you have no team to turn to for support. However, because of the fact that collecting 10k flags basically becomes a player's vocation, these guilds feel they have no other choice but to boost - and they don't see this as unethical. So what can you do? You end up leaving. That is such a bogus way to play this game and "earn" an "achievement". The way CTF is currently set up also promotes flaggers acting as individuals and ignoring the team, regardless of their guild affiliation. Basically you end up with a team of 3-4 active players (while 1-2 of them flags at their will) against a full team of 5.

I don't want to expound on this much further. I truly believe that the flag achievements are the underlying cause of the issues CTF PvP currently faces. Once you eliminate the achievement, there's virtually no reason for any of the above instances to exist anymore. Unfortunately, the people who spent the many hours/days collecting 5-10k flags will not agree with getting rid of this achievement - and I honestly can't blame them. So unless someone can think of a way to properly fix this dilemma that I've illustrated, this plague of an achievement will continue to infest the sportsmanship of CTF in Arcane Legends. The proposed change would not only have to 'grandfather' reward the people who have already acquired the flag APs, but at the same time balance the AP system so that players who potentially could have earned the same APs (but now lose out on the opportunity) can make up for it another way (or not lose their LB positions).

The system that Energizeric and Alrisaia have proposed in separate threads are how the CTF matches should have been developed in the first place. Having a games won/lost or team flags scored/allowed statistic is a step in the right direction for deterring players from flagging alone or guild boosting. Add the absence of the flagging achievement into the mix, and now you have absolutely no choice but to play the game as it's intended to be played. However, people are still going to want some sort of reward or achievement. Here's my proposition, which is expanding off of Alrisaia's original idea:

Have achievements for CTF set up as such:

100 points earned, 500 points earned, 1,000 points earned, 5,000 points earned, 10,000 points earned

Team flag captured = 10 points
Team flag lost = -10 points
Team kill = 1 point point
Team member death = -1 point
Game won = 15 points + token
Game lost = 0 points
Tie game = ???

The default setting of points is 0. You could not go below that value. With this system in place, you're now motivated to perform well as a team - because everyone's actions count towards each others CTF point accrual. Since the point system is both critical and extreme, a time limit on the match would be a reasonable addition as Alrisaia suggested. This way, if a team is dominating the other, it will eventually end and kill farming wouldn't be ongoing.

This isn't the first thread to try and fix the CTF system. So far, there' been no indication that it will ever be modified at all... but here's hoping...

Alrisaia, my apologies if my somewhat dramatic post runs this thread off course.

[Energizeric]

You are right about it having to do with flagging achievements. The issue here is not that these achievements exist. The issue is that most of the players on the "top players" leaderboards now have finished all other achievements except for the flagging achievements. If STS were to create some more achievements that were hard to finish, then not everyone would be going for flags at the same time, and the CTF games would become more normal.

However, it would have to be achievements that are actually difficult. Not the kind of achievements like in Arena that take a few hours and then you are done. And not the achievements like Bael II where you spend hours looking for it. Achievements like the flagging achievements that you can work on gradually for the long haul and eventually finish. I had suggested a couple different things in the past, but they were mostly ignored. Here are some ideas...

1) What happened to pet achievements? We had these in season 1 & 2, but then no more. How about adding more pet achievements for the pets in season 3 & 4, and then when the new expansion comes out, have pet achievements there as well.

2) How about an achievement for equipping full mythic & arcane gear (all 5 gear pieces + pet)? Truthfully, it is a real achievement to be able to acquire so much expensive gear. Yes, I suppose someone could borrow from their friend, but perhaps make it harder....make it so that you must do something while wearing the full mythic & arcane gear, so that a simple borrow and equip in the guild hall won't be enough. Maybe you have to record 1k kills while wearing the full mythic & arcane gear.

3) How about "Beastmaster Pro" for taking all of the original pets that were required for the "Beastmaster" achievement and leveling them up to level 25 or 30.

4) 100k PvE kills, 1m PvE kills

And I'm sure others can come up with plenty of ideas....

[Alrisaia]

I like the idea, I'm just a little indecisive as to whether it's more efficient for STS to revamp the current CTF game or create an entirely new one. The only issue I see with creating a new one, is it doesn't remedy the current state of CTF PvP we see today. The problem with CTF is the flagging achievement. You can basically tie 90% of the threads concerning issues with PvP to this single achievement.

I don’t think the existing CTF game should go away. I am proposing this as a new version of CTF… although the map could be the same – I would prefer different more ‘open’ ground maps with smaller obstacles… rocks, etc… Perhaps even a few bridges to create ‘choke’ points



The major issue, of course, is it promotes "boosting". Roughly 70% of the games I've entered in the past few days are nothing but the bigger guilds boosting their flaggers by joining both teams and stalemating the fight. When you try engage in combat, the immature language pours out and they start to pick on you because you have no team to turn to for support. However, because of the fact that collecting 10k flags basically becomes a player's vocation, these guilds feel they have no other choice but to boost - and they don't see this as unethical. So what can you do? You end up leaving. That is such a bogus way to play this game and "earn" an "achievement". The way CTF is currently set up also promotes flaggers acting as individuals and ignoring the team, regardless of their guild affiliation. Basically you end up with a team of 3-4 active players (while 1-2 of them flags at their will) against a full team of 5.

I don’t know about boosting – but this seems unsportsmanlike. I think this sort of thing happens in any game though… difficult to prevent this sort of thing.



I don't want to expound on this much further. I truly believe that the flag achievements are the underlying cause of the issues CTF PvP currently faces. Once you eliminate the achievement, there's virtually no reason for any of the above instances to exist anymore. Unfortunately, the people who spent the many hours/days collecting 5-10k flags will not agree with getting rid of this achievement - and I honestly can't blame them. So unless someone can think of a way to properly fix this dilemma that I've illustrated, this plague of an achievement will continue to infest the sportsmanship of CTF in Arcane Legends. The proposed change would not only have to 'grandfather' reward the people who have already acquired the flag APs, but at the same time balance the AP system so that players who potentially could have earned the same APs (but now lose out on the opportunity) can make up for it another way (or not lose their LB positions).

There’s just no ‘direction’ or ‘goal’. Thus there’s no reason to work as a team, causing the boosting thing you were talking about as well as ganging kill farmers. Make Kills and individual achievements less of an objective and people would play this as a team sport.

I am and have been an avid paintball player for over 20 years. I can tell you that you would never find a team that doesn’t work together so that one or another can get ‘flags’ or ‘kills’. The object is to win the match. And if that means a gambit by one player to take out two while sacrificing himself at the snake – then so be it, ultimately – if he eliminates two but gets eliminated, himself his team still has a positive KDR and is now better positioned to win the match.



The system that Energizeric and Alrisaia have proposed in separate threads are how the CTF matches should have been developed in the first place. Having a games won/lost or team flags scored/allowed statistic is a step in the right direction for deterring players from flagging alone or guild boosting. Add the absence of the flagging achievement into the mix, and now you have absolutely no choice but to play the game as it's intended to be played. However, people are still going to want some sort of reward or achievement. Here's my proposition, which is expanding off of Alrisaia's original idea:

Have achievements for CTF set up as such:

100 points earned, 500 points earned, 1,000 points earned, 5,000 points earned, 10,000 points earned

Team flag captured = 10 points
Team flag lost = -10 points
Team kill = 1 point point
Team member death = -1 point
Game won = 15 points + token
Game lost = 0 points
Tie game = ???

Shouldn’t be a tie – but yes I agree there should be some sort of point system to determine the winner, and perhaps an MVP achievement that you can earn with earning certain number of points for your teams.

Not sure what the token would be for but cool :)


The default setting of points is 0. You could not go below that value. With this system in place, you're now motivated to perform well as a team - because everyone's actions count towards each others CTF point accrual. Since the point system is both critical and extreme, a time limit on the match would be a reasonable addition as Alrisaia suggested. This way, if a team is dominating the other, it will eventually end and kill farming wouldn't be ongoing.

I disagree with points hard stopping at 0. Allowing points to go into negative would prevent guilds from ‘farming’ or ‘boosting’ in this arena. Nobody wants to LOSE points – and thus would not want to join a team that would be losing every time.


This isn't the first thread to try and fix the CTF system. So far, there' been no indication that it will ever be modified at all... but here's hoping...

Alrisaia, my apologies if my somewhat dramatic post runs this thread off course.

I always enjoy reading your dramatic posts :)






You are right about it having to do with flagging achievements. The issue here is not that these achievements exist. The issue is that most of the players on the "top players" leaderboards now have finished all other achievements except for the flagging achievements. If STS were to create some more achievements that were hard to finish, then not everyone would be going for flags at the same time, and the CTF games would become more normal.

I don’t believe CTF flags will ever be ‘normal’ without some sort of win / lose achievement. The only purpose to join one of those games is to farm kills or to flag. Not exactly challenging or fun IMO… Team battles / Guild Wars – seems like an awful lot of fun to me 




However, it would have to be achievements that are actually difficult. Not the kind of achievements like in Arena that take a few hours and then you are done. And not the achievements like Bael II where you spend hours looking for it. Achievements like the flagging achievements that you can work on gradually for the long haul and eventually finish. I had suggested a couple different things in the past, but they were mostly ignored. Here are some ideas...

1) What happened to pet achievements? We had these in season 1 & 2, but then no more. How about adding more pet achievements for the pets in season 3 & 4, and then when the new expansion comes out, have pet achievements there as well.

Yep – another thread but yes.




2) How about an achievement for equipping full mythic & arcane gear (all 5 gear pieces + pet)? Truthfully, it is a real achievement to be able to acquire so much expensive gear. Yes, I suppose someone could borrow from their friend, but perhaps make it harder....make it so that you must do something while wearing the full mythic & arcane gear, so that a simple borrow and equip in the guild hall won't be enough. Maybe you have to record 1k kills while wearing the full mythic & arcane gear.

Yes. And yes.



3) How about "Beastmaster Pro" for taking all of the original pets that were required for the "Beastmaster" achievement and leveling them up to level 25 or 30.

Cool idea…




4) 100k PvE kills, 1m PvE kills

Yes.



And I'm sure others can come up with plenty of ideas....



So –

I’d like to stay on task here – the (4) ideas that Energizer had are cool ideas for additional achievements, but I am really looking forward to PVPing this next season a little bit and trust me when I say – I will be doing so with a team and we will not be the cookie cutter specs one might expect. I’m just thinking along the lines of this is an MMO (Multiplayer)… Teamwork should be a very specific thing that STS encourages here – primarily because the social aspect and comradary(sp?) of teamwork is what keeps end gamers playing. Relationships are very important in these games and I believe having another challenging aspect to the game (aside from elite) that requires teamwork and being able to work well together will only help STSs bottom line and please its shareholders :)

[Taejo]

Shouldn’t be a tie – but yes I agree there should be some sort of point system to determine the winner, and perhaps an MVP achievement that you can earn with earning certain number of points for your teams.

Not sure what the token would be for but cool

Oops, forgot to explain the token. It's just another incentive for winning. It seems the main source of motivation for players to entertain themselves with PvP in this game is for achievements and showing off statistics. Sadly, I don't think the majority of players do it simply for fun. The token system would work like many other MMORPGs, where when you win a game, you receive this token (or badge, medal, whatever you want to call it). Collect enough of these to turn in for special gear/pets. it's just an added incentive to playing CTF and actually winning the game. At the same time, make the gears and pets very expensive, so that it takes a good amount of time to purchase them and they aren't overabundant. Making the armor NO DROP would also give the acquiring player more sense of accomplishment and uniqueness within the community.


I disagree with points hard stopping at 0. Allowing points to go into negative would prevent guilds from ‘farming’ or ‘boosting’ in this arena. Nobody wants to LOSE points – and thus would not want to join a team that would be losing every time.

Again, the reasoning behind 0 is because some PUGs will ultimately get dominated by 'pre-made' teams (guilds, friends). We don't necessarily want a system that punishes these poor players for not having a fighting chance. However, if achievements for overall points were implemented as I suggested, then I would say that per game it would make sense that players could lose points. But the overall points a player acquires in a lifetime should not go in the negative. Thinking twice about this, I see your point about the deterring factor of boosting - good observation :)

[Alrisaia]

Sadly, I don't think the majority of players do it simply for fun.
^ This


Oops, forgot to explain the token. It's just another incentive for winning. It seems the main source of motivation for players to entertain themselves with PvP in this game is for achievements and showing off statistics. Sadly, I don't think the majority of players do it simply for fun. The token system would work like many other MMORPGs, where when you win a game, you receive this token (or badge, medal, whatever you want to call it). Collect enough of these to turn in for special gear/pets. it's just an added incentive to playing CTF and actually winning the game. At the same time, make the gears and pets very expensive, so that it takes a good amount of time to purchase them and they aren't overabundant. Making the armor NO DROP would also give the acquiring player more sense of accomplishment and uniqueness within the community.


Rewarding players with items / experience / or anything is a good idea for PVP – anything other than just bragging rights, banners, and KDR would be better than what we have now.

– so, DAOC had it where some Elite dungeons were both PVE and PVP – meaning you could farm there, but at your own risk… but I think that worked out well because of their inherent teams based on Hybernia vs Albion vs Midgard. I don’t think it would work here for a mix of PVE / PVP which IMO would be ideal.

You also earned some experience for your character in the form of ‘Realm Points’. Those points then added up to provide you with additional skills and abilities that were mostly only useful in PVP gameplay. Perhaps an experience point system based on and a separate ‘level’ status for PVP. Meh – getting off track on a tangent here…



Again, the reasoning behind 0 is because some PUGs will ultimately get dominated by 'pre-made' teams (guilds, friends). We don't necessarily want a system that punishes these poor players for not having a fighting chance. However, if achievements for overall points were implemented as I suggested, then I would say that per game it would make sense that players could lose points. But the overall points a player acquires in a lifetime should not go in the negative. Thinking twice about this, I see your point about the deterring factor of boosting - good observation :)

PUGs get dominated by anything they’re fighting especially in PVP. I don’t think that’s anything new to MMO games. I still disagree. The only way to prevent boosting is to punish it severely. Also – if matches were setup not based only on level, but additionally based on a team’s average Win v Loss ratio it might make PUGs a bit more realistic – just a thought.