Solution to fix the issue of rogues being OP in PvE

[Energizeric]

We have all noticed that rogues are overpowered in PvE. All of the timed runs leaderboards are dominated by rogues, and there are even some all rogue teams on those leaderboards. But you never see an all sorcerer or all warrior team. And even mixed teams tend to be 3 rogues plus a warrior or sorcerer.

The reason is that rogues deal the most damage by far, so they can finish the dungeons much quicker. The downside to rogues in PvP is that their healing capacity is not as good as the other classes, and they cannot regenerate their own mana. However, in PvE they can just spam potions to solve both of those issues.

This also gives them a big financial advantage as they can farm elite dungeons solo while other classes must search for a party to farm with. More farming = more elite drops = more gold.

The solution to fixing this is putting a cooldown on potions, just like there is on skills. Maybe you can only use a potion once every 5 seconds (or some other number, this would have to be tested by STS). But all classes spam potions, not only rogues, especially in elite dungeons as there is no other way to survive.

If STS were to implement the following changes, this would fix that issue as well:

1) Add a 5 second cooldown for potions (both health and mana combined, i.e. if you use a health potion, you cannot then use a mana potion until you wait 5 seconds). This makes sense as a person can only drink a potion so fast before they can then drink another.

2) Nerf the damage dealt by elite mobs and bosses to the point that a warrior can easily survive with the 5 second potion cooldown, a sorcerer can survive with the 5 second cooldown in combination with using their heal skill, and rogues cannot survive without the help of a sorcerer or warrior to help with the healing.


Making these changes will cause the following changes/fixes:

1) All teams will now need a support character, either a warrior with HOR or a sorcerer with Lifegiver, and in some of the more difficult elite dungeons you will probably need 2 or 3 such players on your team.

2) As a result, timed runs leaderboards will no longer be dominated by rogues, but instead mixed teams.

3) This will eliminate the big advantage rogues have in the ability to solo elite dungeons. Now they too will have to find a party to farm with if they want to do elites.

4) Many of us have complained that elite farming costs too much between the cost of potions and pet feeding. This will help save all players money as it will mean less gold spent on potions, and therefore players will be more encouraged to farm elite dungeons.

[Zeus]

We have all noticed that rogues are way OP in PvE. All of the timed runs leaderboards are dominated by rogues, and there are even some all rogue teams. But you never see an all sorcerer or all warrior team. And even mixed teams tend to be 3 rogues plus a warrior or sorcerer.

The reason is that rogues deal the most damage. The downside to rogues in PvP is that their healing capacity is not as good as the other classes, and they cannot regenerate their own mana. However, in PvE they can just spam potions.

The solution to fixing this is putting a cooldown on potions, just like there is on skills. Maybe you can only use a potion once every 5 seconds. But many classes spam potions, especially in elites as there is no other way to survive.

Well, if STS were to implement the following changes, this would fix that issue as well:

1) Add a 5 second cool down for potions (both health and mana combined, i.e. if you use a health potion, you cannot then use a mana potion until you wait 5 seconds). This makes sense as a person can only drink a potion so fast before they can then drink another.

Interesting suggestion, but there is many a reason why this simply would not work. As a sorcerer, you do not face receiving aggro nearly as much as rogues. Therefore, your opinion on this matter is biased. Have you seen how rogues have to spam pots to stay alive without other classes? Also, take note that on top of spamming potions, they are expected to fire skills as well. So... even if suggestion 2) was implemented as well, you want rogues to choose between surviving and being conservative with skills? I can assure you, 1 mana pot will be used up by any good rogue in 1 second flat. Thus, you will have empty mana bar rogues running around. What are we supposed to rely on? A sorcerer having heal? A lot of them do not and also do not know how to properly play their classes. Therefore, that is why potions were created. To nerf them would be very detrimental.

2) Nerf the damage dealt by the elite mobs and bosses to the point that a warrior can easily survive with the 5 second potion cooldown, sorcerers can survive with the 5 second cooldown and using their heal skill, and rogues cannot survive without the help of a sorcerer or warrior to help with the healing.

Again... the warrior and sorcerer will be expected to have heal. What if they don't? What if they do not know how to time it properly? I do not want to place my kill to death ratio at the hands of other players. Everybody knows that rogues die enough as it is.

This will mean that all teams will need a support character, either a warrior with HOR or a sorcerer with Lifegiver, and in some of the more difficult elite dungeons you would probably need 2 or 3 such players on your team. Then the timed runs will no longer be dominated by rogues but will be mixed teams.

So you want normal, every-day runs to be slower for the sake of a few leaderboard banners? Currently, the way the system is, all classes can be on timed runs. The purpose of timed runs is optimizing damage, so as a result, if one can survive, of course maximum damage will be the fastest.

This will also eliminate a big advantage rogues have which is the ability to solo elite runs, while other classes cannot. This currently gives them a huge financial advantage since they do not have to search for a party to farm elites with as other classes do.
There is no huge financial advantage whatsoever. Every run, if I am spamming potions like any good rogue should, I burn anywhere from 2k-4k gold a map. So trust me, a rogue's pockets empty much quicker than a warrior's or sorcerer's pockets.

Also, this will help save all players money as it will mean less gold spent on potions. As many of us have complained that elite farming costs too much, this will help with that issue as well.
At the cost of much longer runs, correct? This is a mobile MMO, I don't want runs longer than they already are (which are already pretty darn long).


I'm sorry, Energizer, but I disagree.

Why? See the bolded reasons.

These changes are not worth it for the sake of a few leaderboard times. They would just slow down the game as a whole. Also, doing more than these suggestions would cost far too much in R&D.

[Energizeric]

A couple of comments about your comments:

1) I was not suggesting that using pots should cost mana. I just meant they should have a cooldown so you can't spam them.

2) With regard to your suggestion that the maps will slow down, let STS nerf them to the point that they will NOT slow down but will stay the same as they currently are but with the new system in place.

3) I know you are saying that you spend lots of mana potions, but I don't even have the option to run elite dungeons solo and spend a lot on potions. My device touch screen in combination with my thumbs cannot spam potions fast enough for my sorcerer to stay alive in Arena or in elite dungeons. The mobs and bosses simply hit way too hard. Warriors do not have the option to run elite dungeons solo either as they will be able to survive but cannot cause damage fast enough to beat the boss, i.e. I've seen plenty of cases where the boss heals faster than the warriors can cause damage. To use a PL reference, it's like trying to fight the bandit queen solo while at level 55.

So either make there be a way for sorcerers and warriors to also be able to solo elites, or else change the system in a way so that all classes cannot solo. Right now the way the system is, it is not fair. I don't even run elite dungeons anymore because of this. The last time I ran an elite dungeon to farm it, and not for an achievement was 6 months ago. I've tried about 20 or 30 times since then and never managed to finish the boss. I'm in a pretty large end game guild (190+ level 30/31 members) and nobody ever wants to run elites, and when they do we always end up dying before we finish the boss.

4) It's very convenient for rogues that the potions happen to solve the 2 problems that rogues have. For sorcerers since we have lifegiver, we don't really benefit so much from potions. Perhaps they should have an aimed shot potion that I can spam to cause more damage. (a little sarcasm there, but you get my point).

Just to show my point, if they allowed use of potions in PvP I think rogues would never lose a fight to anyone. Do you disagree?


Or maybe they should do what they did in PL which is to make it no potions at all in elite dungeons, but nerf those dungeons considerably to make up for that.

[Zeus]

A couple of comments about your comments:

1) I was not suggesting that using pots should cost mana. I just meant they should have a cooldown so you can't spam them.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not saying that using pots should cost mana, but you are saying to have a cooldown so that you can't spam them.

For your sake, I'll take your hypothetical situation into account.

Scenario A:
A tank is not doing his/her job properly, or we are simply overpowering their taunts. Now, a rogue has an option, take ONE health potion, or ONE mana potion. If he chooses to take that mana potion, he can spam his DPS for 1 second more before having to wait another 5s due to pot cooldown. Also, please note that is IF he survives.

Simply, what you are asking WILL cripple the game without a doubt. You picked your class, deal with not being able to be the fastest for timed runs. I wish that I could control mobs like a sorcerer could, but I can't. Also, ask any all rogue party. It really isn't a solo. Why? Rogues die MANY MANY MANY times. Example: Ask Azepeiete how many times he runs a map so he can finish a timed run record without any deaths from a rogue. Then, if we're taking elixir runs into account, plat revive is the only other reason that they can run solo.

2) With regard to your suggestion that the maps will slow down, let STS nerf them to the point that they will NOT slow down but will stay the same as they currently are but with the new system in place.
Again, too much work for little outcome. What's the outcome? Leaderboards? Big whoop. They are simply not going to change the game over a few rogues dominating the leaderboards (which isn't the case if one looks at any Nordr elite maps that actually do require tanking ability).

3) I know you are saying that you spend lots of mana potions, but I don't even have the option to run elite dungeons solo and spend a lot on potions. My device touch screen in combination with my thumbs cannot spam potions fast enough for my sorcerer to stay alive in Arena or in elite dungeons. The mobs and bosses simply hit way too hard. Warriors do not have the option to run elite dungeons solo either as they will be able to survive but cannot cause damage fast enough to beat the boss, i.e. I've seen plenty of cases where the boss heals faster than the warriors can cause damage. To use a PL reference, it's like trying to fight the bandit queen solo while at level 55.
Again, most rogues cannot run solo. Only a very few can. Ask any rogue to run solo and let me know what you will come up with. More then often, I guarantee you that it will be a dead rogue. Also, again, a rogue is supposed to deal damage, so let it deal damage. Even if we take into account pot spamming, it usually is not fast enough to save our butts. Take a look at Shuyal. The 1st record time was a 4 party team but the 4th person left the match at the last boss due to death from not being able to spam pots fast enough.

So either make there be a way for sorcerers and warriors to also be able to solo elites, or else change the system in a way so that all classes cannot solo. Right now the way the system is, it is not fair. I don't even run elite dungeons anymore because of this. The last time I ran an elite dungeon to farm it, and not for an achievement was 6 months ago. I've tried about 20 or 30 times since then and never managed to finish the boss. I'm in a pretty large end game guild (190+ level 30/31 members) and nobody ever wants to run elites, and when they do we always end up dying before we finish the boss.
I honestly don't see the issues in the elite dungeon. I pair up with tanks and mages all the time and it runs just fine. However, if I decide to go all rogue, I know that I will be spamming at least 300 pots that run and end up with numerous amounts of deaths. Again, sorcerers and tanks CAN do the same thing, however, since they are not a damage class, the outcome will not be the same.

4) It's very convenient for rogues that the potions happen to solve the 2 problems that rogues have. For sorcerers since we have lifegiver, we don't really benefit so much from potions. Perhaps they should have an aimed shot potion that I can spam to cause more damage. (a little sarcasm there, but you get my point).

Just to show my point, if they allowed use of potions in PvP I think rogues would never lose a fight to anyone. Do you disagree?
Yes, I agree. However, there is a reason that they don't.


Or maybe they should do what they did in PL which is to make it no potions at all in elite dungeons, but nerf those dungeons considerably to make up for that.
PL's elite dungeons are much quicker and different. There are only a few elite dungeons which do not allow usage of pots and those elite dungeons don't have very many mobs.

In short, any class CAN solo and spam potions fast enough. If I want to live as a rogue SOLO, I literally have to stop attacking and spam potions until the attack wave finishes off. Also, what you are asking has essentially no solution. Potions are meant to be forgiving of human errors. If you ask to give a cool-down on them, people WILL complain more than they already do. Why? Not everybody is extremely skilled.

The issue with leaderboards? Deal with it. That's just how it's going to be. In all MMOs, if you look, the damage class will be able to kill bosses and complete runs the fastest. However, it is at the cost of many deaths. Thus, this is a problem that plagues all MMOs and just something that people will need to get used to. The fact is that there are still plenty of maps that require utilization of all classes & most of the time, a combination of the classes is MUCH more effective than running all rogues.

Don't believe me? Try out a combination of classes. You'd be surprised at the differences you'd get.


You want equal opportunity for timed runs? The issue is lacking of class combos in AL. That is THE ONLY reason why rogues get a huge benefit in timed runs.

Now, if you can get STS to add extremely effective class combined combos that are AOE, that is the way to solve the problem of rogue dominated leaderboards. The method that you've suggest simply will not work.

[Alfai]

Agree with apollo.

No idea why rogue as the damage dealer (being a rogue) is perceived op.
Whilst we do crits and dmg more than other classes (being a rogue) but its always at expense of something.in this case pots.im not sure bout your point that you screen is huge.if thts the case imagine rogue who has no options but to stretch their fingers and make it happen or die.

And pots consumption and expenses for rogue is way much more.still it doesnt really a factor to be rich.i remember how tough to survive for rogue in the eatly levels when keep on dying at elites.as for me its aoways deficit when pots vs gold saving.maybe other classes cn make money out of it not sure.

Btw i bumped into rasi earlier soloing crates farming at km3.something that is not seen often before the mage update.perhaps mage can benefit from the speed passive i dont know since rogue seem op for timed runs.

Cross finger that once the arcane mage wep is out sorc can take up the role of dmg dealer too than being a support class.

*grabbing popcorns

[Venom]

Dude this is a stupid suggestion. How the hell do you expect to survive in elites without spamming potions?? Why do you even have a problem with rogues being OP? You are a mage, your class gonna be OP coz of arcane staff. How about removing all stuns from Mage class? As a 'solution' to the complaining rogues. Suggest something useful, don't try to take something away from someone else. Be okay with others going on LB, nobody is stopping you from creating a rogue. I am a warrior and nobody wants a warrior for timed runs. Do you see me complaining?

[JaytB]

Please no cooldown on pots. I played O&C in the past and that had cooldown on pots, totally hated it. Just my opinion :)

[Alfai]

Dude this is a stupid suggestion. How the hell do you expect to survive in elites without spamming potions?? Why do you even have a problem with rogues being OP? You are a mage, your class gonna be OP coz of arcane staff. How about removing all stuns from Mage class? As a 'solution' to the complaining rogues. Suggest something useful, don't try to take something away from someone else. Be okay with others going on LB, nobody is stopping you from creating a rogue. I am a warrior and nobody wants a warrior for timed runs. Do you see me complaining?

Nothing is never enough...;)

I envy those class who need not to spam pots in pve.now thats OP.

[Venom]

Nothing is never enough...;)

I envy those class who need not to spam pots in pve.now thats OP.

Trust me, even i need to spam pots against some bosses and mob pulls.. With 6k hp and 1600 armor.. And here someone suggests cool down on pots.. Has he thought of how many deaths he gonna get if STS changes this? Don't even think of how many complain threads to change it back. Well I am glad STS devs are much smarter than that :)

[Alfai]

I trust u.and i trust most of us try really hard in our own ways to spam that pots.you will laugh if you see how i try to adjust pots spamming on tab.hence why i opted for smartphones but at the COST of battery.nothing is perfect really.

If i may suggest hold on to tht arcane wep released..upgrade hooks first *cough

*activating voicemail for hate notes

[Taejo]

I like my rogues "OP". They make elite runs much quicker and more enjoyable. For all I care, they can keep their banners with the little hourglass on it - consider it a token of thanks from all the warriors out there who want to run elite maps efficiently. Cool downs on pots might fix the timed runs LB, but it will also create a dozen more complaint-related issues for us to deal with.

[Venom]

I trust u.and i trust most of us try really hard in our own ways to spam that pots.you will laugh if you see how i try to adjust pots spamming on tab.hence why i opted for smartphones but at the COST of battery.nothing is perfect really.

If i may suggest hold on to tht arcane wep released..upgrade hooks first *cough

*activating voicemail for hate notes

Hooks actually need to be buffed!!!!! They feel so underpowered..

[Alfai]

Tbh i feel sorry for tanks tho they way i see it nt as meatshield but more of defender and hold the key to the team survival.
Ive been in game where for the first time i saw a tank being the man of match with most kills.tho hes using maul in pvp.i dont see that as op tho i was farmed by the same tank.i figured out other ways to get my revenge *in positive and healthy manner

But i have nothing to complain. *aiming bow for a pointblank shot

But i might with this mage arcane stuff..since the update mage are more eager to kill.forget bout their class role and crap.it doesnt matter since killing matters and satisfactory to some.so imagine that with a new arcane weapon.what would be the effect?

If i survive in a match or runs first id thank the tank for keeping me alive and smurf to supply me with fuel to make the kills.

*whispering "...man thats op.you are creating a super smurf there

[juaki]

More easy this:

The time leader board only granted for teams formed by the three classes. No solo, minimum three players. The last slot at your choice.

I always ask for this! If not the game will be an a sorcerer and roge game.

Or add to the time the pots of heal and mana wasted in the run. The best run the faster and the less pots wasting.

[Soundlesskill]

I feel sad that you apparently can't open your eyes and see mages on timed lb.

Again, why don't you just make a rouge yourself?

Pot CD. Are you kidding me? You'd die a lot more too, seeing as mages heal charged attract arrgo. Aka you drop dead.

Okay, so basically you're saying you don't want elite to go fast, but by any means make it go slow as fk.

@Defamed - Hooks doenst need a buff, they are lvl26 for a reason.

[Alfai]

I feel sad that you apparently can't open your eyes and see mages on timed lb.

Again, why don't you just make a rouge yourself?

Pot CD. Are you kidding me? You'd die a lot more too, seeing as mages heal charged attract arrgo. Aka you drop dead.

Okay, so basically you're saying you don't want elite to go fast, but by any means make it go slow as fk.

@Defamed - Hooks doenst need a buff, they are lvl26 for a reason.

I think defamed was being sarcastic hehe...
But why not buff it lol!

[Soundlesskill]

I think defamed was being sarcastic hehe...
But why not buff it lol!

Meh :)

[Venom]

Yes, it was pun intended. I know they are 26 and would be too OP if buffed. Just hope future expansions all 3 classes get new arcane weapons together.

[Soundlesskill]

Yes, it was pun intended. I know they are 26 and would be too OP if buffed. Just hope future expansions all 3 classes get new arcane weapons together.

Oh sorry. I kist scrolled down and saw your post. Haven't really followed the thread :)

[Bless]

Energi. do you forget that a mage has 4k+ mana and a warrior has 4k+ hp?

what does a rogue have. 3k hp? 1k mana? this means rogues need to spam BOTH potions as opposed to a warrior only needing to spam mana and some hp potions (for wars they dont need to spam HP potions, just one every 5 secs is enough) and a mage has to only spam hp potions (mana dont need to SPAM)

I disagree with 5sec cooldown, no other MMO has this and its easy to see why not.

[Haligali]

Nah its a late suggestion, rogues op pve was in season1-2 but not now, most of the maps need 2sorc-2rogue teams. (lmm normal, arena are still rogue maps, and i dont wanna use heal in pve)

[falmear]

Here is the fix and only requires 3 lines of code. I provide it free of charge too.

If (rogue.damage > mage.damage) {
rogue.damage = mage.damage;
}

[Zeus]

Here is the fix and only requires 3 lines of code. I provide it free of charge too.

If (rogue.damage > mage.damage) {
rogue.damage = mage.damage;
}

Yeah..no thank you. Mage is a support class and crowd control class, so that's what it is always going to be. If you want the damage to be the same, well, you picked the wrong class.

[Taejo]

My only request to STS regarding this matter, is please make any future timed run contests a little more creative. I.e. groups must consist of one of each class (4th can be optional) or something along those lines. The seasonal timed runs LB isn't worth changing the game over, but when you're handing out prizes with 1-time-only banners, then its time to rethink the dynamics of timed runs by adjusting the rules of the contest.

[Energizeric]

The reality is that with accounting for the use of potions, rogues are by far the most powerful class in every aspect. As was previously said, if they allowed the use of potions in PvP rogues would be unbeatable. The only weaknesses a rogue has are solved by potions, but the weaknesses that sorcerers and warriors have are NOT solved by potions. There lies the issue and the reason why rogues dominate PvE (where potions are used). Yes, rogues have to spend their money on these potions, but that is little consolation. If I could buy an "aimed shot" potion to boost my damage by 200%, I would load up on them in a second. And if I could buy an "armor boost" potion to boost my armor a couple of hundred points, I would also load up on those. It must be nice to run dungeons knowing that your only weakness can be remedied by a tap of a button, but other classes must live with their weaknesses.

I know I'm not the most talented player by a long shot, but as I do have full mythic gear on my mage, it would be nice if I could somehow manage to complete an elite dungeon once in a while. I've probably wasted 20-30 hours the past couple of months trying to run elite dungeons, and have yet to finish one of them. I know I'm not very good compared to some other players, but I don't think I'm the worst mage in AL, so it would be nice if someone with my playing abilities could manage that. This is why I was in favor of eliminating the elite dungeons, and I still think if they keep the elite dungeons then they need to make some serious changes to them. The current system is just not playable.

If they don't make some major changes, I will probably delete my sorcerer and start over as a rogue. I'd hate to waste all that time invested, but I think in the long run I would end up more successful and have a chance to compete better.

[Uzii]

The reality is that with accounting for the use of potions, rogues are by far the most powerful class in every aspect. As was previously said, if they allowed the use of potions in PvP rogues would be unbeatable. The only weaknesses a rogue has are solved by potions, but the weaknesses that sorcerers and warriors have are NOT solved by potions. There lies the issue and the reason why rogues dominate PvE (where potions are used). Yes, rogues have to spend their money on these potions, but that is little consolation. If I could buy an "aimed shot" potion to boost my damage by 200%, I would load up on them in a second. And if I could buy an "armor boost" potion to boost my armor a couple of hundred points, I would also load up on those. It must be nice to run dungeons knowing that your only weakness can be remedied by a tap of a button, but other classes must live with their weaknesses.

I know I'm not the most talented player by a long shot, but as I do have full mythic gear on my mage, it would be nice if I could somehow manage to complete an elite dungeon once in a while. I've probably wasted 20-30 hours the past couple of months trying to run elite dungeons, and have yet to finish one of them. I know I'm not very good compared to some other players, but I don't think I'm the worst mage in AL, so it would be nice if someone with my playing abilities could manage that. This is why I was in favor of eliminating the elite dungeons, and I still think if they keep the elite dungeons then they need to make some serious changes to them. The current system is just not playable.

If they don't make some major changes, I will probably delete my sorcerer and start over as a rogue. I'd hate to waste all that time invested, but I think in the long run I would end up more successful and have a chance to compete better.

I play a rogue. I was in elite once for achievements. I never went back. The amount of pots i used there was unimaginable and uneconomical for me. I would be ruined. I can compltete 4 arena bosses in the time of one in elite run, with every boss have the possibility to drop elite warchests, so..
I think the problem is so many times discussed party system, pug runs, etc.
And probably that they allowed that classes can benefit from secondary stats. In the first season for succesful run all classes were necessary.

[Bless]

The reality is that with accounting for the use of potions, rogues are by far the most powerful class in every aspect. As was previously said, if they allowed the use of potions in PvP rogues would be unbeatable. The only weaknesses a rogue has are solved by potions, but the weaknesses that sorcerers and warriors have are NOT solved by potions. There lies the issue and the reason why rogues dominate PvE (where potions are used). Yes, rogues have to spend their money on these potions, but that is little consolation. If I could buy an "aimed shot" potion to boost my damage by 200%, I would load up on them in a second. And if I could buy an "armor boost" potion to boost my armor a couple of hundred points, I would also load up on those. It must be nice to run dungeons knowing that your only weakness can be remedied by a tap of a button, but other classes must live with their weaknesses.

I know I'm not the most talented player by a long shot, but as I do have full mythic gear on my mage, it would be nice if I could somehow manage to complete an elite dungeon once in a while. I've probably wasted 20-30 hours the past couple of months trying to run elite dungeons, and have yet to finish one of them. I know I'm not very good compared to some other players, but I don't think I'm the worst mage in AL, so it would be nice if someone with my playing abilities could manage that. This is why I was in favor of eliminating the elite dungeons, and I still think if they keep the elite dungeons then they need to make some serious changes to them. The current system is just not playable.

If they don't make some major changes, I will probably delete my sorcerer and start over as a rogue. I'd hate to waste all that time invested, but I think in the long run I would end up more successful and have a chance to compete better. If a mage wants to solo OR be included in an elite run, your suggestion isnt in favour of the mage, he'd be dead in seconds if faced against an elite mob wouldnt he?

[Soundlesskill]

Eneri that's what I said from the start.

Problem with rouges doing ANY sort of dmg. Wanting to be the OP class. Y U NO MAKE ROUGE?

[Taejo]

I know I'm not the most talented player by a long shot, but as I do have full mythic gear on my mage, it would be nice if I could somehow manage to complete an elite dungeon once in a while. I've probably wasted 20-30 hours the past couple of months trying to run elite dungeons, and have yet to finish one of them. I know I'm not very good compared to some other players, but I don't think I'm the worst mage in AL, so it would be nice if someone with my playing abilities could manage that. This is why I was in favor of eliminating the elite dungeons, and I still think if they keep the elite dungeons then they need to make some serious changes to them. The current system is just not playable.

If they don't make some major changes, I will probably delete my sorcerer and start over as a rogue. I'd hate to waste all that time invested, but I think in the long run I would end up more successful and have a chance to compete better.

Is that was this is really about? You want to be able to solo elite dungeons and compete for LB positions? I am sorry, but this is not a valid reason to revamp the game's potion system, class abilities or elite dungeons across the board. Not to sound harsh, but this time you've stepped out of the boundaries of posting one of your more beneficial and reputable suggestions and are now just concocting selfish ideas. You mentioned in another thread that you've played MMORPGs in the past, correct? That being said, you of all people should know that end game content is designed to collaborate players and basically obligate them to form a group and develop strategy and technique. Sure, a rogue can solo some of the older elite maps with little difficulty. Big deal! Is it really an optimal use of your time and resources to do this anyway? Does the risk versus reward factor of soloing elite maps greatly outweigh that of running the maps with a group? I think not. I also think that most people would agree putting a group of 3-4 people and running elite Rook's Nest is a far more enjoyable (and beneficial) venture than soloing it. The current system is very playable, and you know it. It's just not soloable for a sorcerer or warrior, which it's not designed to be anyway. Quite frankly, Kraken and Nordr aren't exactly soloable for the average end-game rogue either. But going back to the topic of this thread, how is adding a global CD to pots going to help sorcerers or warriors solo an elite dungeon or reach the leader board? As it was previously stated, potions are primarily in the Legends titles to fill the gap of human error and lag issues. Unfortunately, it also allows rogues to run maps more effectively - c'est la vie.

Sorry Energizeric - I respect your intelligence and creativity put forth on this forum. However, your vision of success in this game is very askew from the average player, if soloing elite maps and competing for LB spots is in the definition.

[Zurko]

i see what ener is saying ...
and i also have a rogue we spam pots in pve but i bet we get less profits because of this
every class has has a weak spot

also juaki gave us the best answer for leader board runs and i 100% agree everyone skipped past his post
lb recs should require each class and the 4th is up to ya
simple.

[falmear]

I know I'm not the most talented player by a long shot, but as I do have full mythic gear on my mage, it would be nice if I could somehow manage to complete an elite dungeon once in a while. I've probably wasted 20-30 hours the past couple of months trying to run elite dungeons, and have yet to finish one of them. I know I'm not very good compared to some other players, but I don't think I'm the worst mage in AL, so it would be nice if someone with my playing abilities could manage that. This is why I was in favor of eliminating the elite dungeons, and I still think if they keep the elite dungeons then they need to make some serious changes to them. The current system is just not playable.


Honestly I really don't understand what you're saying, do you mean solo or in a party? I don't understand you saying you wasted 20-30 hours trying to run elite dungeons and not finish them how did you get the achievements then? I can solo a number of elite maps. And in some cases when I do it solo I can complete it faster then a party of 4 (because of mob scaling). I use to play only elite dungeons non-stop successfully and mostly in PUGs. I met a lot of good people playing pugs and people who I now play with frequently. And if you know how to use your skills you can solo a number of elite maps. But it requires a huge number of pots to do so. Sometimes when I am in a PUG everyone (including the tank) dies but I stay alive by using my skills in such a way to keep me alive. This comes from a number of factors such as knowing the map and what certain mobs do and where to position yourself in respect to them to take the least amount of damage. And how to use your skills to stop the mobs from over running you. For me the current system is just fine and the only thing wrong with it is the time spent vs the reward isn't worth it when chest prices get so low. I am looking forward to farming elites again with the new expansion.

[Energizeric]

I'm not talking about running elites solo. You read my post wrong. I'm talking about running with a group. I can't manage to finish a single run. I always die, every single time. My thumbs are not capable (or my iPhone maybe) of spamming potions as quick as they would be needed in order to stay alive. So what happens is I die constantly, and then have to respawn and run back to the group. In all of the more recent elite dungeons, everyone always runs past the mobs after a certain point. As a sorcerer, even with a speed pet like shiloh and my shield, I can't run past the mobs by myself. So when I die once everyone is past that point, I am then forced to leave the dungeon unable to complete it as there is no way for me to get back to the group. It happens every single time. I've tried dozens of times over the past couple of months and have not managed to finish a single one.

Even in Arena, unless I have an extremely good group, I can't manage to finish all 4 bosses without dying a few times.

As for the achievements, I got those back in the first few days when nobody used to run past the mobs. At the beginning of each expansion, nobody knows how many mobs are needed to clear for boss to spawn, so everyone just clears the whole dungeon. So that's how I got the Nordr achievements. For Dead City and Kraken elites, my rogue buddy Zenlims (who has since been banned) use to help me get the achievements.

I can't imagine that I'm the only sorcerer who has these issues.

[Alfai]

I'm not talking about running elites solo. You read my post wrong. I'm talking about running with a group. I can't manage to finish a single run. I always die, every single time. My thumbs are not capable (or my iPhone maybe) of spamming potions as quick as they would be needed in order to stay alive. So what happens is I die constantly, and then have to respawn and run back to the group. In all of the more recent elite dungeons, everyone always runs past the mobs after a certain point. As a sorcerer, even with a speed pet like shiloh and my shield, I can't run past the mobs by myself. So when I die once everyone is past that point, I am then forced to leave the dungeon unable to complete it as there is no way for me to get back to the group. It happens every single time. I've tried dozens of times over the past couple of months and have not managed to finish a single one.

Even in Arena, unless I have an extremely good group, I can't manage to finish all 4 bosses without dying a few times.

As for the achievements, I got those back in the first few days when nobody used to run past the mobs. At the beginning of each expansion, nobody knows how many mobs are needed to clear for boss to spawn, so everyone just clears the whole dungeon. So that's how I got the Nordr achievements. For Dead City and Kraken elites, my rogue buddy Zenlims (who has since been banned) use to help me get the achievements.

I can't imagine that I'm the only sorcerer who has these issues.

A couple of points (assuming i am reading your post right);

Paragraph 1:
-You are dealing with survivability issue in a group run.
-you are struggling to spam pots effectively thus leading to unfinished single run

Paragraph 2:
-you are dealing with survivability issue in arena runs.again in group not solo.

Paragraph 3:
-you are uncertain of each map pulls thus you kill all mobs.this resulting to high deaths and pots consumption amounts.
-you are unable to get achievement points by yourself

Paragraph 4:
-based on your study average mages in al are experiencing symptomps as mentioned in the prior paragprahs

My questions:
-How are all these relating to rogue being op whereas you are clearly describing a mage dilemma.if you are referring to your orginal post the comments replied by others are sufficient to contra your first suggestion in this thread.
-Hang on to that first question.now shouldnt you skewed the title to sorcerer are up?
-before you compile your argument,are the paragraohs written by describing your experience solely or have you talked to a credible number sample of mages who can vouch for similar experience?
-if i am to summarize it,is the issue is on a player gameplay/skills or simply and underpowered issue?
-assuming the above is "fixed" for you how would you respond to other classes who might experience the above that you are currently experiencing?would you be making a valid suggestion or agree that other classes are up now?

[falmear]

I'm not talking about running elites solo. You read my post wrong. I'm talking about running with a group. I can't manage to finish a single run. I always die, every single time. My thumbs are not capable (or my iPhone maybe) of spamming potions as quick as they would be needed in order to stay alive. So what happens is I die constantly, and then have to respawn and run back to the group. In all of the more recent elite dungeons, everyone always runs past the mobs after a certain point. As a sorcerer, even with a speed pet like shiloh and my shield, I can't run past the mobs by myself. So when I die once everyone is past that point, I am then forced to leave the dungeon unable to complete it as there is no way for me to get back to the group. It happens every single time. I've tried dozens of times over the past couple of months and have not managed to finish a single one.

Even in Arena, unless I have an extremely good group, I can't manage to finish all 4 bosses without dying a few times.

As for the achievements, I got those back in the first few days when nobody used to run past the mobs. At the beginning of each expansion, nobody knows how many mobs are needed to clear for boss to spawn, so everyone just clears the whole dungeon. So that's how I got the Nordr achievements. For Dead City and Kraken elites, my rogue buddy Zenlims (who has since been banned) use to help me get the achievements.

I can't imagine that I'm the only sorcerer who has these issues.

I wrote this a while back it may help you:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?98789-Running-passed-mobs-to-boss&p=1104219

Running back after I die is no problem for me. I use slag and using fireball, time shift and noble effigy & garments of will plus some jewelry (epic) which is STR/int and gelphnir (however its spelt). I have no problems running back. You just need to spam pots. Also if you understand the way time shift drops when you are moving it always drops behind you. So you cast charged shield, move in holding charged fire ball. Let fireball go, knock down mobs, run passed mobs and release time shift which drops behind you on mobs. If we are talking Oltgar, then I keep moving and sometimes use the pillars to block mobs while I squeeze by and spamming pots while I move.

The way I avoid dieing with Frostr is alternating Slag stun and shield. With shield I will survive any attack if I am hit outside of the red zone for example. Then when shield goes down I use Slag to stun, this gives me some time so shields 15 second cool down to count down. So I alternate shield & stun. Also I avoid using time shift because to drop it, you have to get too close and too often I get hit outside the red zone. Also I am good at predicting Frostr's movements since I played this map so often.

For arena I switch to "tank gear" depending on effects & boss. For a mage, I don't care who you are mythics aren't enough for some effects and boss. One boss does a push back when you are hit with the fire from the sword. And I always get pushed into the crystals, so to survive I use as much hp & armor as I get. With shield you get a huge boost the more str you have. I get bounced around so much like a pinball. But frequently I can survive if my shield is up, if not then its likely I will die. But honestly this is the point of the arena to get you to spend plat.

Also I play on the PC because for me I can spam pots faster then on the touch screen.

[falmear]

-How are all these relating to rogue being op whereas you are clearly describing a mage dilemma.if you are referring to your orginal post the comments replied by others are sufficient to contra your first suggestion in this thread.


The problem mages face is they have 20-30% less armor then rogues. This means if you are being hit you have to survive 20-30% more damage. I suggest you play with 20-30% less armor and you'll see what its like to be a mage. Yes mage has crowd control but when stuff goes side ways (tank doesn't hold aggro, hit outside the red zone, etc) then you find yourself in the unenviable situation of trying to live with insufficient armor and spamming pots like mad. In some situations no matter amount of pot spamming is sufficient. So rogues aren't OP IMO, but they are in the sweet spot of having enough armor and doing good damage on the back of aimed shot. A level 26 rogue with the cheapest legendary armor has more armor then a level 31 full mythic mage. That is the undisputed reality. So I get really upset when I see that stun should be nerfed because without this its one less defensive measure I have against bosses & mobs. For PvP fine but you nerf stun in PvE and this is one less tool in our belt to avoid dieing and completing runs fast. So don't nerf my Slag and give me some decent armor. Thats all I ask, is that really so much?

[Alfai]

The problem mages face is they have 20-30% less armor then rogues. This means if you are being hit you have to survive 20-30% more damage. I suggest you play with 20-30% less armor and you'll see what its like to be a mage. Yes mage has crowd control but when stuff goes side ways (tank doesn't hold aggro, hit outside the red zone, etc) then you find yourself in the unenviable situation of trying to live with insufficient armor and spamming pots like mad. In some situations no matter amount of pot spamming is sufficient. So rogues aren't OP IMO, but they are in the sweet spot of having enough armor and doing good damage on the back of aimed shot. A level 26 rogue with the cheapest legendary armor has more armor then a level 31 full mythic mage. That is the undisputed reality. So I get really upset when I see that stun should be nerfed because without this its one less defensive measure I have against bosses & mobs. For PvP fine but you nerf stun in PvE and this is one less tool in our belt to avoid dieing and completing runs fast. So don't nerf my Slag and give me some decent armor. Thats all I ask, is that really so much?

Whos asking to nerf the stun?i think it was a response towards the constructive suggestion to rogue being perceived op.so they said such thing with pun intended.

Like u.i got upset when other classes are still complaining up till now but making request for selfish reason.and the part of spamming pots gets on my nerves.i had to stretch my fingers and tap like a madmen having to ignore how much damage i make or who didnt attack etc..thts me with my inability and skills i can afford.but asking for more when its clearly not practical?come on.thanks!

[Spyce]

The pot cool~down would cause many more deaths on toons.

[Alfai]

Dont even get me start on tht pots cooldown.thts ugh

[Venom]

First of all, since when has it been an ISSUE that rogues are OP in PvE? Don't you need someone out there to kill the boss fast and end the pain n suffering? I find it pointless to discuss this further, STS will never make this change. OP doesn't understand what he is talking about. He wants a cooldown timer on pots which would ONLY reduce his or anyone else's or everyone's chances of survivability in elites.

About rogues soloing: Why do you have a problem if someone runs an elite map solo and finishes it successfully?
I can solo few maps on mage easily. Keep the enemies frozen n keep attacking.

About adding cooldown timer: Try this, form a party (mixed classes as per your choice) go to elite dead city or kraken maps. Before starting your run, make a rule that NOBODY in party spams potions. They can use a potion after 5 second interval. Well, why 5, take 3 second interval!! Let me know how it goes.

[Alfai]

First of all, since when has it been an ISSUE that rogues are OP in PvE? Don't you need someone out there to kill the boss fast and end the pain n suffering? I find it pointless to discuss this further, STS will never make this change. OP doesn't understand what he is talking about. He wants a cooldown timer on pots which would ONLY reduce his or anyone else's or everyone's chances of survivability in elites.

About rogues soloing: Why do you have a problem if someone runs an elite map solo and finishes it successfully?
I can solo few maps on mage easily. Keep the enemies frozen n keep attacking.

About adding cooldown timer: Try this, form a party (mixed classes as per your choice) go to elite dead city or kraken maps. Before starting your run, make a rule that NOBODY in party spams potions. They can use a potion after 5 second interval. Well, why 5, take 3 second interval!! Let me know how it goes.

Just to add on.i used up to 2k pots running arena for few hrs back to back.no joke for such a decent player with limited skills and knowledge like me.i know that arena eats pots and i also know tht amount of pots i used were absurd.but to date i havent suggested solution or fix to enable me to overcome those with ease or in this case "overpowered".i did ask for sharing of builds and strategy as i evaluated tht its more of gameplay and skill/strategy to outlast the battle. Fyi i used two hands to tap simultaneously and best of all i still die many times despite spamming pots like playing tap2mi can get "wow" or "awesome" by playing tap2 with my finger skills but not in al.i accepted the fact and moved on.

Please dont make such suggestion or fix that is clearly not on behalf of the community or mage class to be specific.tht is not so smart.

[Energizeric]

To clarify a bit, here is a summary of what I am complaining about and what I am suggesting:

Yes, these are 2 different complaints I am making, and both of them are somewhat related....

As a mage, I have tons of trouble doing elite dungeons, so much trouble that I have quit doing it.

(And to answer a post above, constantly having to pay plat for a respec is not a solution to anything. I should be able to have a certain build that should be sufficient to participate somewhat successfully in all parts of the game. Yes, having to change gear is acceptable, but having to change my stats and skills, which costs plat, is not an acceptable solution. No single skill should be a requirement for anything in the game. If it is, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game. Each class has 8 skills, and we are supposed to chose 4 for our character based on our playing preference and style, not based on what is required. Yes, certain builds are better for certain aspects of the game, but no certain build should be a requirement to be able to finish an elite dungeon.)

Second complaint is that as a mage, I am unable to compete on the leaderboards with the other classes, especially on the timed runs leaderboards.

A solution for this issue would be to nerf the elite dungeons. But then it would cause other problems in the game because rogues for example, would have too easy of a time in those dungeons and would farm them to death, resulting in a surplus of elite gear and prices would crash.

So a solution to that problem would be to nerf rogues. But then how do we nerf rogues in PvE without nerfing them in PvP (which I agree is very balanced currently). The answer is potions, since this is the only aspect of our game that appears in PvE but not in PvP.

If the elite dungeons were to be nerfed, and rogues were to be nerfed (by implementing the potion cool down I suggested), then for rogues everything would seem the same, except they would be using fewer potions. It may take them a bit longer to solo an elite dungeon, but they would not die any more often. Yes, this nerfing of the elite dungeons would have to be done very carefully to strike the perfect balance. But it is possible.

Also, I'm not suggesting the health of the enemies in elite dungeons should be nerfed. Only the amount of damage they dish out. This will allow for more survivability, and thus fewer potions would be needed. This would also make mages and warriors a more important component of farming teams since we are the ones who can heal and restore mana. And with this change, maybe a sorcerer could manage to solo an elite dungeon, even if it takes a long time, it would become possible. And most important, I think with this change the fastest teams for timed runs would be the teams that have a mix of all classes, not an all rogue team.

Maybe my 5 seconds cool down is not the right number. Maybe it should be 3 seconds, or 2 seconds even. But having to spam 100 potions in a minute is just crazy, and the fact that rogues can do that and then solo an elite dungeon is just not fair to other classes who cannot do that. Even with the cost of potions considered, it does give them a big farming advantage.

Last thing I'll mention is this change would reduce the cost of running elite dungeons for all classes, as we would all end up using fewer potions, and thus it would become more of a profit making activity to run elite dungeons -- a big complaint I have seen posted in this forum over and over.

[Venom]

What if some players don't care about the potions cost. What if I want to be able to spam 2 pots at a time? What if survivability is more important than anything else? You are having a difficulty achieving the LB coz you aren't finding the right party combination. It has NOTHING to do with how OP rogues are. My mage Unsolved is on 2 elite runs LB, does that mean he is more OP than rogues? Nothing really needs to be nerfed. Just practice more and come up with better strategies. People who make it to the LB are humans too. They just think and play differently.

[Soundlesskill]

You don't really have the right to complain about not being able to do timed runs. And you don't really have the right to say I'm wrong. Well you do, but then don't come to me when you go open your eyes and see all the smurfs on lb. how about making some rouge friends and run with them?

And here is a solution:

Nerf rouges Crit dmg. 4k on one mob is stupid. Nerf it to be highest 1,5. I dont think its acceptable in any way that rouges can 1 shot you. Same with PvE bosses. Nerf crit without nerfing dmg. After all, a lucky run is when you crit 3-5k



If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../
Pros and cons. Mob control and support to someone like you, who has blood on his teeth. Yeah right...

[Taejo]

You don't really have the right to complain about not being able to do timed runs. And you don't really have the right to say I'm wrong. Well you do, but then don't come to me when you go open your eyes and see all the smurfs on lb. how about making some rouge friends and run with them?

And here is a solution:

Nerf rouges Crit dmg. 4k on one mob is stupid. Nerf it to be highest 1,5. I dont think its acceptable in any way that rouges can 1 shot you. Same with PvE bosses. Nerf crit without nerfing dmg. After all, a lucky run is when you crit 3-5k



If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../
Pros and cons. Mob control and support to someone like you, who has blood on his teeth. Yeah right...

You're on the right track, but nerfing rogue's overall crit is not the best solution. I still want my rogues critting frequently and for high damage in my elite runs so we can finish the maps quicker. A better solution would be to give Sorcerers some sort of skill additive that significantly reduces crit chance, say 20-30%. Adding this skill to fireball would make the most sense, since many sorcerers run with that skill in their build. There's a fireball upgrade that reduces hit chance by 25%. Adding the crit reduction to this upgrade seems proper, although I'm sure there's other skill upgrades where you can add this such as within the frostbolt skill tree. Anyway, I'm sure some players reading this are already thinking "Well if I'm hit with a fireball every 5 seconds and my crit is reduced by 20-30%, then I'll have 0% crit the entire fight!" While this is a plausible possibility, keep in mind you still have true aim, Ribbit, other pets with +crit, Misty, and simply dodging the fireball's explosion to counter this. Warriors already have two skills that inflict enfeeble on their target (CS and AT upgrades, which are 3 sec and 7 sec cooldowns respectively) which reduces crit chance to next to nothing, so this idea isn't totally new to what's already on the battlefield. Just like warriors and sorcerers have to, you may find the need to adapt a new strategy to survive.

Does anyone else agree with this idea to help fix Sorcerer vs Rogues in PvP?

EDIT: I also feel that giving Sorcerers this powerful debuff would also help them in PvE greatly. However, STS knows much better than I do the current balance of groups versus mobs/bosses, so with that being said there could be an issue with that which I'm not seeing. I don't think -25% crit from a fireball would make the entire game too easy though.

[Haligali]

If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../


i dont think so.

[anibiag]

Honestly, not all have noticed rogues pve OP. I didn't. I agree if you say they are OP in pvp, but in pve lb is the only place i see them good in pve. Everytime i run tombs, elites with rogues and mages, every pve contest shows to me them mages are better in pve. I ran 4 mage team in elite some times, and it was fast and safe, and with 3 rogues it's no chance. Pretty slow, very unsafe, only boss is killed fast. Sajme thing in tombs. If you look rogue and mage pve lb, you will see mages stronger in pve too.
Sorcs have many stunning aoe skills, good heal. Rogues dont.
In fact I cant understand, why on pve lb there are rogues mostly. Maybe cos they save too many time fighting boss, or maybe there is simply much more good rogues who like timed elite...

[Soundlesskill]

You're on the right track, but nerfing rogue's overall crit is not the best solution. I still want my rogues critting frequently and for high damage in my elite runs so we can finish the maps quicker. A better solution would be to give Sorcerers some sort of skill additive that significantly reduces crit chance, say 20-30%. Adding this skill to fireball would make the most sense, since many sorcerers run with that skill in their build. There's a fireball upgrade that reduces hit chance by 25%. Adding the crit reduction to this upgrade seems proper, although I'm sure there's other skill upgrades where you can add this such as within the frostbolt skill tree. Anyway, I'm sure some players reading this are already thinking "Well if I'm hit with a fireball every 5 seconds and my crit is reduced by 20-30%, then I'll have 0% crit the entire fight!" While this is a plausible possibility, keep in mind you still have true aim, Ribbit, other pets with +crit, Misty, and simply dodging the fireball's explosion to counter this. Warriors already have two skills that inflict enfeeble on their target (CS and AT upgrades, which are 3 sec and 7 sec cooldowns respectively) which reduces crit chance to next to nothing, so this idea isn't totally new to what's already on the battlefield. Just like warriors and sorcerers have to, you may find the need to adapt a new strategy to survive.

Does anyone else agree with this idea to help fix Sorcerer vs Rogues in PvP?

EDIT: I also feel that giving Sorcerers this powerful debuff would also help them in PvE greatly. However, STS knows much better than I do the current balance of groups versus mobs/bosses, so with that being said there could be an issue with that which I'm not seeing. I don't think -25% crit from a fireball would make the entire game too easy though.

Maybe like 5% crit reduce. Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

[Taejo]

Maybe like 5% crit reduce. Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

5%?? No, you're not seeing this from both sides. Take for example my L31 rogue who has Noble gear on. Her base crit is 19.63%, 29.63% with Deadly Focus buff, 30.13% base crit with Horton, 40.13% with Horton + Deadly Focus buff. So even without the best gear and pets, rogues can easily get their crit up to 40%, and maintain it for 90% of the duration of any fight both PvE and PvP. We all know that any Aimed Shot crit on a sorcerer means certain death; and having 4/10 arrows coming at you being crits (in a perfect situation), is just devastating. Granting sorcerers the ability to inflict a crit reduction of ~25% for 2-3 seconds would counterbalance this greatly, and give sorcerers an extra chance to survive while they wait for their shield's cool down. I guarantee you that any good rogue can still beat a sorcerer 1 on 1 without having 40%+ crit.

EDIT: Also, do you realize (as I already mentioned) that the enfeeblement debuff from warriors basically drops your crit down to 0% for 2 seconds anyway? I know not all warriors run PvP with CS or AT in their build, but some do.


Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

Completely biased and non-comprehensive answer. The reason Ribbit is considered "cheating" at this point, is because he basically grants players a nearly 100% chance to crit their charged attacks when engaging in combat. Let me ask you, will Ribbit still be considered "cheating" when players can use him to effectively counter a sorcerer's -25% crit chance debuff? However, for the sake of this thread, I won't delve much further into the Ribbit issue - there's a separate thread for your opinions on Ribbit's usage in PvP. Although Misty is indeed a plat pet, people still buy her. I don't see any of the folks who open crates for arcane pets or purchased Slag/Ripmaw/Abaddon complaining that PvP is unfair because they had to spend plat for the best pets. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give you in this argument is that Misty is not the greatest pet and has a few issues that deserve to be looked at by Devs to increase her usefulness. But hey, if Misty is what it will take for a rogue to survive in a more balanced PvP environment against sorcerers and warriors, then so be it.

EDIT: Accidentally called Aimed Shot "True Aim". Wrong game...

[Alrisaia]

So I wasn't going to chime in on this thread, but... now I will.

I’m surprised by this thread to be perfectly honest Ener – I really value your opinions and really love seeing your posts. I have to however disagree with you about a number of items.

First off, let me begin by clarifying to ensure I understand your complaint correctly:

1) Rogues are OP because they can survive in Elite, have high armor, and high damage Potions solve the only ‘problem’ they have.
2) Because of this, rogues dominate the LB, thus making it look as though mages are feeble blue weekling smurfs when compared to the other squishy counterparts




As a mage, I have tons of trouble doing elite dungeons, so much trouble that I have quit doing it.
You’re doing it wrong. Trust me.
In my guild mages are a valuable addition to any elite party.
Last night, we ran 5 or 6 runs with a [very new to elite] mage. He was wearing champions armor, had other garbage gear and didn’t understand how to play his class. He died multiple times. Also, we ran twice before I noticed he was wearing his Lep the whole time...
After two minutes of me coaching him, he was rocking and rolling. Dropping his clock at the right time, freezing the right mobs in the right places, using his stuns properly etc…
We had 2 tanks, myself, and this mage. We ran consistent 4 minute LMM runs and after I coached him he mage he didn’t die again.

Of course, this is an easy elite dungeon, but my point is that strategy has as much to do with timed runs as does gear and spec. If not more. In fact – my teams are almost as good as full mythic hook teams… and we don’t have all hook, all arcane pet teams...

Ener – you’re welcome to run with myself or my guild anytime. You helped me out a great deal when I was a member in AF and I still remember you recommending I buy a Kraken skewer that someone had underpriced – I made my first 200k marching on that deal.



Second complaint is that as a mage, I am unable to compete on the leaderboards with the other classes, especially on the timed runs leaderboards.

Our fastest Skull Cove time includes 2 mages. If anyone should be complaining about LB for timed runs, it shouldn’t be mages.



Also, I'm not suggesting the health of the enemies in elite dungeons should be nerfed. Only the amount of damage they dish out. This will allow for more survivability, and thus fewer potions would be needed. This would also make mages and warriors a more important component of farming teams since we are the ones who can heal and restore mana. And with this change, maybe a sorcerer could manage to solo an elite dungeon, even if it takes a long time, it would become possible. And most important, I think with this change the fastest teams for timed runs would be the teams that have a mix of all classes, not an all rogue team.

If you nerfed the amount of damage an elite mob hits for multiple related problems would arise beginning with the following:
This would eliminate the need for a tank for the average party – good player parties already don’t need a tank, don’t make it so that average groups don’t need one also…

You brought up another point about having to have two different specs. I cannot think of ANY game in which a PVE build was or could be the same as a solid PVP build. The fact that STS even permits respeccing is a blessing. Imagine having to roll up a new character if you wanted to choose different skills! OMG… no thanks…
So, you need 5 plat? Do a free offer, or throw the Devs a bone for this awesome game and buy a sack of plat for a few bucks. Seriously $0.99 for 10 plat? So… I can’t agree with you on this.

[GoodSyntax]

Each class has their own benefits and weaknesses.

I solo elite maps A LOT.....as in a lot, a lot, and I can tell you that the single greatest drawback of the Rogue in PvE (assuming I'm guzzling mana pots like its dollar draft night) is that I have absolutely no form of crown control. If I have a really large pull, my only tactic in elite maps is to kite and build up the Nox Box. This is a slow process and requires practice - not something that the beginner Rogue would be expected to pull off.

Having a single Sorcerer or Warrior in my party helps immensely with crowd control - leading to faster, more economical runs.

Yes, Rogues hit extremely hard - but that is their greatest attribute. Take away the Rogues ability to inflict massive damage through base DMG, or via Crit just extends the run time in the map, leading to more pot expenditures, more deaths, more pet feedings and fewer runs per reroll elixir. Essentially, a massive nerf in DMG or Crit would mean Warriors would have to spend more time potting and less time shedding aggro from teammates, Sorcerers would have to focus more time on staying alive instead of crowd controlling and Rogues would probably be more of a liability if they cannot dispense of mobs quickly. In a nerfed environment, a team of 4 Sorcerers would probably be the superior group for timed runs since they have the best crowd control ability and the highest DMG in game, coupled with the ability to be superior tanks with the right build (Gale + Shield + STR Gear = Iron Smurf?).

To be honest, I just think of the LB as more of a distraction, and not at all indicative of class positioning. Obviously, if fastest run is the goal, a team with the highest total damage potential will be most effective - but that comes with a price. It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed; without crowd control, tanking and stuns, all you have is high damage potential, but that often isn't enough to ensure success against warriors who know how to shield and enfeeble, and sorcerers who can keep you perpetually stunned. I would take 2 Warriors + 2 Sorcerers over a team of 4 Rogues any day if I were challenged to develop a zero death toon.

[Bless]

Each class has their own benefits and weaknesses.

I solo elite maps A LOT.....as in a lot, a lot, and I can tell you that the single greatest drawback of the Rogue in PvE (assuming I'm guzzling mana pots like its dollar draft night) is that I have absolutely no form of crown control. If I have a really large pull, my only tactic in elite maps is to kite and build up the Nox Box. This is a slow process and requires practice - not something that the beginner Rogue would be expected to pull off.

Having a single Sorcerer or Warrior in my party helps immensely with crowd control - leading to faster, more economical runs.

Yes, Rogues hit extremely hard - but that is their greatest attribute. Take away the Rogues ability to inflict massive damage through base DMG, or via Crit just extends the run time in the map, leading to more pot expenditures, more deaths, more pet feedings and fewer runs per reroll elixir. Essentially, a massive nerf in DMG or Crit would mean Warriors would have to spend more time potting and less time shedding aggro from teammates, Sorcerers would have to focus more time on staying alive instead of crowd controlling and Rogues would probably be more of a liability if they cannot dispense of mobs quickly. In a nerfed environment, a team of 4 Sorcerers would probably be the superior group for timed runs since they have the best crowd control ability and the highest DMG in game, coupled with the ability to be superior tanks with the right build (Gale + Shield + STR Gear = Iron Smurf?).

To be honest, I just think of the LB as more of a distraction, and not at all indicative of class positioning. Obviously, if fastest run is the goal, a team with the highest total damage potential will be most effective - but that comes with a price. It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed; without crowd control, tanking and stuns, all you have is high damage potential, but that often isn't enough to ensure success against warriors who know how to shield and enfeeble, and sorcerers who can keep you perpetually stunned. I would take 2 Warriors + 2 Sorcerers over a team of 4 Rogues any day if I were challenged to develop a zero death toon. Exactly.

[Haligali]

It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed;

Dont need a balanced team, i bet even 5 sorcerer with crappy gear can own 5 fully geared rogue.

[GoodSyntax]

True.

The point is that a team of high DMG Rogues are so unbalanced that they will be dominated, because if DMG is all you have, then you are exposing so many weaknesses that even a mediocre opponent can beat you.

[Origin]

Hi Energezic,

I see u posting a lot of feedback on forums, always thought provoking ^^ Aight. I play both mage and rogue. However, in every game I've touched I start with a mage (homeground advantage for me), then move on to a rogue (steeper learning curve for me). However, I've finally come to a point where I can do farming and timed runs as a rogue to some degree of success. So hopefully this odd combo might help provide some insight into some issues u've raised, about rogues from a mage-at-heart's point of view ;)


First thing that's gotta be established is : Timed runs and farming runs are 2 completely different things, even though they count as PVE.

Secondly, I put it to you that it is was not the rogues that needed tweaking, but the PVE map designs that needed tweaking. At the time u raised the issue, for pre-shuyal elite timed runs, it was no longer the case that 4 rogues ruled all. I'd say only abt 6 maps called for warriors. The rest work in an equal team of mages and rogues. See the S4 Leaderboard (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?113676-Season-4-Leaderboard-Winners!) to get an idea of the class proportion. If u need help ID-ing anyone I can help with that. Farming is a lot more flexible and works on individual team dynamics.

As for elite maps/class distribution, pls allow me to break it down so any less seasoned players that read this can understand too :

Our strength as Mages is in our AOE,
so where there are maps with mobs that can be grouped together, we have the homeground advantage. However,

1 on 1 is Rogue territory.
Everyone knows that Rogues help you down bosses fast, perhaps less understood is how we can help you when it comes to mob manipulation.

Warriors assist us with party survivability.
This means we mages & rogues can operate faster when there's too much aggro/large lures, therefore kill faster.

So this means, a warrior isn't needed on elite maps where mages/rogues don't have a problem surviving. A rogue isn't rly needed if there are no boss kills or more sophisticated luring - for eg wt4 leveling parties. Again, all about map design. But, ALL elite maps from forest to shuyal tower need a mage for max pwnage. :) This would be consistent with what several here have already mentioned - mages are welcome on all elite maps. In-demand, actually. The new shuyal maps may be tougher, but they actually call for a pretty balanced team.

Third, if u don't feel the demand, then something's not quite right. There's 3 things to look at - you may want to consider either :

a) changing the players you choose to complement you/your playstyle (choose your friends), and/or
b) getting help testing your specs and equipment, and fine-tuning your playstyle until you're satisfied. There may have simply been a lack of real opportunity to test with a group u're really comfortable with, or if u have a group of friends you stick with then u could benefit together from the testing and evolve alongside one another. Also,
c) If u dislike something, you make things hard for yourself. In this case, if I may be honest, your dislike for rogues comes out pretty strongly. I understand it hasn't been a bed of roses, but your disliking of it will get in your own way. U can't find a solution to something u're not willing to get to know. My way of overcoming it was to go and play as rogue, challenge all my weaknesses, until I was satisfied.

Fourth, about farming. U know what, I usually get better loot on my mage compared to my rogue, unless I'm not on luck boosts and my party is. I've a theory about this, applied quite successfully to rogue, which I'm happy to share in private. :)

Btw, the part abt Zenlims taking u thru some maps made me smile! :) ik it can be frustrating when the game mechanics don't seem to work in your favour. Come look me up in-game, I'm not the best but I can show u what I mean and we can narrow it down, find solutions around it together and hv a chat abt lb stuff. That failing, it'd at least make for some potentially interesting dialogue! :)

If not, no worries - wish ya all da best! :) O ya last thing. Don't let anyone ruin your fun or get to ya ok. Haters will hate, buddy, I like that u're always forthcoming abt ur opinions and it's brave to go against the flow. But not always the best way. ;) peace.

[Soundlesskill]

5%?? No, you're not seeing this from both sides. Take for example my L31 rogue who has Noble gear on. Her base crit is 19.63%, 29.63% with Deadly Focus buff, 30.13% base crit with Horton, 40.13% with Horton + Deadly Focus buff. So even without the best gear and pets, rogues can easily get their crit up to 40%, and maintain it for 90% of the duration of any fight both PvE and PvP. We all know that any Aimed Shot crit on a sorcerer means certain death; and having 4/10 arrows coming at you being crits (in a perfect situation), is just devastating. Granting sorcerers the ability to inflict a crit reduction of ~25% for 2-3 seconds would counterbalance this greatly, and give sorcerers an extra chance to survive while they wait for their shield's cool down. I guarantee you that any good rogue can still beat a sorcerer 1 on 1 without having 40%+ crit.

Okay, I think you got somwthing here. Mages can crit up to 2k too, its not ONLY rouges, so if our crit is nerfed. Say we use ribbit, its like 90% crit chance. Nerf 25% still massive crit and no fair. BUT, taking a non ribbit user, has maybe 30% crit at current expansion, 25% nerf = 5% crit chance for like 5sec. We's have to at least have a piece of mythics to survive a sorc, because their dmg is great and their crit is sick.

EDIT: Also, do you realize (as I already mentioned) that the enfeeblement debuff from warriors basically drops your crit down to 0% for 2 seconds anyway? I know not all warriors run PvP with CS or AT in their build, but some do.

IMO, the warr is ok to give you 0% crit chance for a while BECAUSE, a warr doesnt have high enough dmg OR the ability to stun luck you while having no crit. You cannot rob crits for rouges

Completely biased and non-comprehensive answer. The reason Ribbit is considered "cheating" at this point, is because he basically grants players a nearly 100% chance to crit their charged attacks when engaging in combat. Let me ask you, will Ribbit still be considered "cheating" when players can use him to effectively counter a sorcerer's -25% crit chance debuff? However, for the sake of this thread, I won't delve much further into the Ribbit issue - there's a separate thread for your opinions on Ribbit's usage in PvP. Although Misty is indeed a plat pet, people still buy her. I don't see any of the folks who open crates for arcane pets or purchased Slag/Ripmaw/Abaddon complaining that PvP is unfair because they had to spend plat for the best pets. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give you in this argument is that Misty is not the greatest pet and has a few issues that deserve to be looked at by Devs to increase her usefulness. But hey, if Misty is what it will take for a rogue to survive in a more balanced PvP environment against sorcerers and warriors, then so be it.

EDIT: Accidentally called Aimed Shot "True Aim". Wrong game...

Sorry slow reply, I forgot I posted here

[Maunyabastian]

Well I guess you need to exit the game, Ener.
I'm not saying your suggestion is really bad but just: Don't change things that already exist here. :)

Basicly, he wants to say: OMG rogue is so OP, I hate them.
Each class has it's own special ability, as TrueOrigin said:

As for elite maps/class distribution, pls allow me to break it down so any less seasoned players that read this can understand too :
Our strength as Mages is in our AOE,
So where there are maps with mobs that can be grouped together, we have the homeground advantage. However,
1 on 1 is Rogue territory.
Everyone knows that Rogues help you down bosses fast, perhaps less understood is how we can help you when it comes to mob manipulation.
Warriors assist us with party survivability.
This means we mages & rogues can operate faster when there's too much aggro/large lures, therefore kill faster.

So don't get mad just because you are weaker than them. (I'm not saying you're weak. I respect people but I'm sick from the way you talk)

[wowdah]

U think u need to spam pots on sorcerer so much? U kidding bro? Rogue need have like one finger on Hp at all time. Also, u think its easy for rogue to get lb? Sorcerers could do some map easily if they work hard, no die, and do good pulls

[wowdah]

Also in pve, sorcerer clock is op. totally kills way more than razor or trap on a rogue. Sorcerers got huge aoe, rogues got aimed shot which hit one mob. I would love to have clock

[Bless]

Here is a fine example of how many pots a rogue spams in a solo elite map, and this is just the boss. Sorry for the bump but just wanted to share Ataris vid with you guys.


http://youtu.be/DitYVsBDB8o

[falmear]

We all spam pots, its no different for mages except that we don't need to spam mana pots. And had I entered that green circle, I would have been insta killed immediately. So when I run around I totally avoid that where as to you it seems to be of no concern.Try using armor around 1000 and see how well you do and then come back and show us the video. Then I'll be impressed.

[Bless]

We all spam pots, its no different for mages except that we don't need to spam mana pots. And had I entered that green circle, I would have been insta killed immediately. So when I run around I totally avoid that where as to you it seems to be of no concern.Try using armor around 1000 and see how well you do and then come back and show us the video. Then I'll be impressed. Thats what im trying to show you. You have to spam 4 pots as a rogue in 1 second, therefore the 5sec cooldown is a bad idea

Stop saying mages are Underpowered in everything, please stop...that has nothing to do with the topic of adding 5sec cd to potions

[Uzii]

We all spam pots, its no different for mages except that we don't need to spam mana pots. And had I entered that green circle, I would have been insta killed immediately. So when I run around I totally avoid that where as to you it seems to be of no concern.Try using armor around 1000 and see how well you do and then come back and show us the video. Then I'll be impressed.

Not only u me too. Im playing a rogue character and when i enter that green circle, lol not need to enter, its like 2 inches away from me and bum dead. Im not using mythic armor though, it gives big advantage in armor and hp...

[Zeus]

Thats what im trying to show you. You have to spam 4 pots as a rogue in 1 second, therefore the 5sec cooldown is a bad idea

Stop saying mages are Underpowered in everything, please stop...that has nothing to do with the topic of adding 5sec cd to potions

Exactly, at least warriors or mages have to spam one or the other pot. For rogues, you have to spam both and guess what? It takes 2 fingers to spam! So, how are we supposed to attack if we're busy spamming potions? I've been in that situation countless times.

Trust me, as of right now, each class is BALANCED so quit the complaining.

[IronMonkey]

To play a mage is an occupational hazard and I LOVE IT.

[Energizeric]

The problem I am complaining about is demonstrated in that video. What he did would be impossible for any other class no matter how many potions they use. That is my complaint.

[Beastkeeper]

Rogue have 2k/3k hp?& 1k mana?
Why rogue's always spend more golds for potions?
Why rogue's cant solo run other dungeons?
Every normal dungeons/elite dungeons run with my guildmates or friends im wasting more potions.
Im always one hit on elite bosses when im using rogue..

[Beastkeeper]

Rogue have 2k/3k hp?& 1k mana?
Why rogue's always spend more golds for potions?
Why rogue's cant solo run other dungeons?
Every normal dungeons/elite dungeons run with my guildmates or friends im wasting more potions.
Im always one hit on elite bosses when im using rogue..

[falmear]

The problem I am complaining about is demonstrated in that video. What he did would be impossible for any other class no matter how many potions they use. That is my complaint.

Challenge Accepted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2copIFbScdg

Am I OP and need to be nerfed? Haha.

[Taejo]

Wow, impressive, Fal! You're one skilled mage. Nice job :)

[IronMonkey]

Challenge Accepted.


Am I OP and need to be nerfed? Haha.

Thanks for sharing this, but a staff user like me, this will be hard.

Side question: In your vid, someone asked you in game about the best level to open crates, what's was your answer? Hehe, thanks

[falmear]

Thanks for sharing this, but a staff user like me, this will be hard.

This is the problem with a staff, you have to turn and face your attacker. In some situations this is fine but in other situations it can be certain death. I'd probably not use the staff auto attack at all and just use your skills if you insist on using a staff. You can always switch between a staff and gun as the situation dictates.



Side question: In your vid, someone asked you in game about the best level to open crates, what's was your answer? Hehe, thanks

Any of the twink levels like 5,10,15,16. Because the pinks tends to sell at a better price. One person in my guild created a level 5 to open crates, and on the first crate he opened he got a Samael egg.

[Energizeric]

Very impressive. You obviously have a very offensive oriented build (4 offensive skills) and you have samael which helps a ton, especially with the crit bonus -- you seem to land crits quite often. At the amount of time spent and potions used, I don't know if this is really an effective way to farm. Rogues on the other hand can farm very effectively solo, and I know quite a few of them who do so and make quite a bit money doing it.

FYI, I've never tried a 4-offensive skill build. I do pvp, flagging, pve tombs and pve elites all quite often, so I need a build that allows me to switch between those different tasks on a regular basis. So even though I have 5 skills I run with, only 3 of them are offensive. Obviously that limits me a bit.

But still back to the original point, we have seen two videos: one of a rogue doing it solo and one of a mage doing it solo. So if we had a timed run leaderboard for that, who would win? Seems like the rogue did it twice as quick. Which was my point in the first place.

We all have a fixed amount of time we play the game, and in that time rogues can accomplish a lot more in PvE than mages or warriors can. They can get more kills, farm for more items, finish more dungeons, etc. For a sorcerer or warrior to compete on the leaderboards with a rogue, we would have to play more hours. And for us to compete on the timed runs leaderboards, we would have to team up with rogues in a party. On the other hand, a full party of all rogues will do just fine in timed runs. Try that with a full team of mages -- not so successful.

[falmear]

Typically I run 3 offensive skills and one defensive skill (shield). However lately I have been getting a number of invites to do timed runs. So to save myself some plat I haven't respec'd back to my usual farming build. 4 offensive skills is doable but only if you run with better & more experienced players. Since I like to farm with a number of different people with varying skill levels I normally use a build more geared around crowd control and survivability instead of pure damage. This is why I don't use lightning because it doesn't do anything for me in terms of crowd control. The rogues in the party are damage dealers, so I focus on staying alive, crowd control and doing AOE & DoT damage.

Unfortunately what the two videos show is that even with a lower damage stat, rogues can produce more damage through crit damage. And this is the rogue using Abaddon while I am using Samael and we're both full mythics. So the rogue doesn't even get a crit bonus with Abaddon while with Samael I only have 28% crit. I personally can't use a pet without a stun. I am not a fan of Abaddon's arcane either. Also rogue's have 30% more armor so as seen in the video, the rogue will walk into the green circle with complete disregard for the potential hazard. Where as I do everything I can to completely dodge that thing because it is almost immediate death if I enter. So you have a class which is dealing 2x damage and 30% more armor. And they say mages are OP. Haha.

For timed runs, mages are in demand and I get asked often enough to do timed runs. And am on the leaderboard for a few maps right now but I don't expect them to hold up for one reason or another. Also last season I got a banner for pure and enhanced timed runs. Also a full team of mages can have success doing timed runs, last season we beat a number of enhanced times:

Tombs of Kraag, Level 1: Time - 31s 901ms / Arrypotta, Beatriixx, Falmear, Meecah
Kraken Mines, Level 1: Time - 42s 332ms / Arrypotta, Beatriixx, Falmear, Meecah
Kraken Mines, Level 2: Time - 44s 105ms / Arrypotta, Beatriixx, Falmear, Meecah
Kraken Mines, Level 3: Time - 1m 0s 495ms / Arrypotta, Beatriixx, Falmear, Meecah

Maybe no one cared enough to beat us. Anyways, I am sure the usual suspects will chime with their usual series of explanations and whatever else.

[Alrisaia]

Tombs of Kraag, Level 1: Time - 31s 901ms / Arrypotta, Beatriixx, Falmear, Meecah

Maybe no one cared enough to beat us. Anyways, I am sure the usual suspects will chime with their usual series of explanations and whatever else.

My team tried to beat this time for about 2 hours with varying strategies, gear, and pets. You guys posted a great time. Closest we got was about 2 seconds behind… given more time I’m confident we would’ve beaten it, however most of the ones we took, we took with little to no trouble.

We were 2 rogues and 2 mages for our team.

[Cashews]

Sure, we rogues can be very good if we spam potions constantly. But doing so is extremely inefficient. We can sacrifice efficiency for things like the leaderboards but this is far from true in regular pve and when farming. It costs some serious cash to run an inefficient rogue. A day of solo farming can easily cost around 200k in pots alone. I would much rather work as a team (the way the game is meant to be played) and save a large portion of that 200k than blow all that money just to save a few seconds per run. I'll admit, it does give rogues an advantage on the leaderboards, but at a serious cost. In regular pve and farming, nerfing pots would result in reduced DMG due to mana loss and more deaths due to health loss. It would nerf rogues all around as rogues are almost completely reliant on pots to deal DMG and even survive.

[Zeus]

Very impressive. You obviously have a very offensive oriented build (4 offensive skills) and you have samael which helps a ton, especially with the crit bonus -- you seem to land crits quite often. At the amount of time spent and potions used, I don't know if this is really an effective way to farm. Rogues on the other hand can farm very effectively solo, and I know quite a few of them who do so and make quite a bit money doing it.

FYI, I've never tried a 4-offensive skill build. I do pvp, flagging, pve tombs and pve elites all quite often, so I need a build that allows me to switch between those different tasks on a regular basis. So even though I have 5 skills I run with, only 3 of them are offensive. Obviously that limits me a bit.

But still back to the original point, we have seen two videos: one of a rogue doing it solo and one of a mage doing it solo. So if we had a timed run leaderboard for that, who would win? Seems like the rogue did it twice as quick. Which was my point in the first place.

We all have a fixed amount of time we play the game, and in that time rogues can accomplish a lot more in PvE than mages or warriors can. They can get more kills, farm for more items, finish more dungeons, etc. For a sorcerer or warrior to compete on the leaderboards with a rogue, we would have to play more hours. And for us to compete on the timed runs leaderboards, we would have to team up with rogues in a party. On the other hand, a full party of all rogues will do just fine in timed runs. Try that with a full team of mages -- not so successful.

They are the DPS class...AKA the best at killing bosses.

Try asking a rogue to complete WT4 solo and then ask a Mage to do the same thing. I guarantee that the Mage will complete it faster. In this case, this was a boss fight so of course the rogue advantage is going to be noticeable (as there's only one target to attack).

Your point was that sorcerers cannot solo maps when infact, they can.

[falmear]

They are the DPS class...AKA the best at killing bosses.

Try asking a rogue to complete WT4 solo and then ask a Mage to do the same thing. I guarantee that the Mage will complete it faster. In this case, this was a boss fight so of course the rogue advantage is going to be noticeable (as there's only one target to attack).

Your point was that sorcerers cannot solo maps when infact, they can.

While I agree with you I think this particular map is a bit different. Because a lot of time is lost because I can't directly confront the 4 mobs. I need to adopt a more defensive strategy because if I enter the green circle its virtually instant death. If I could stand still and bring the mobs together then my AOE damage would be more effective. So what I feel is limiting me is not the amount damage I am dealing but the amount of time I am spending focused on running away then attacking. But for pure boss fights you are right, rogues have the advantage and what they are designed to do.

[Alrisaia]

So -

I'm not really a sports fan but... Here goes:

Every team sport has positions for players.
Every good team has players who play their own position VERY well, while at the same time probably LACK immensely in the others.

This last I checked was a TEAM game where you form teams (parties) and everyone Plays a Role (Role-playing)...

Just saying - it always strikes me as odd that an attempt is made to 'balance' the 'classes' so they're equal.

They will never be equal, but I think STS does a darn good job of making them CLOSE.